Georgia
- Auteur de la discussion magickmumu
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magickmumu
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In the names of the gods I hope they keep this war cold.
magickmumu
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So if nationalism is so bad, what would you like to see?
A worldwide government?
:?:
I am not a nationalist myself.
A worldwide government?
:?:
I am not a nationalist myself.
I've got nothing against patriotism. Feeling love for a country and its members, seeing them as brothers can be quite beautiful.
But telling lies just to pull another nation down?
No thanks.
Also I don't know if I am a friend of globalisation...couldn't decide by now. But if we say One Love than we should also hold it...(dunno if I make myself clear)
...No race is better than another because races don't exist...
EDIT to keep the thought going:
70 years ago we saw what nationalism can turn out to be. Result: greatest slaughter of human history. It is dangerous
But telling lies just to pull another nation down?
No thanks.
Also I don't know if I am a friend of globalisation...couldn't decide by now. But if we say One Love than we should also hold it...(dunno if I make myself clear)
...No race is better than another because races don't exist...
EDIT to keep the thought going:
70 years ago we saw what nationalism can turn out to be. Result: greatest slaughter of human history. It is dangerous
it's not a question of one or the other.
nationalism is a mindset. a belief. taken to the extreme it becomes a dogmatic faith that your country is right, meaning if your country declares war on another country, you are in the right and the other side is by default wrong.
i saw a post today on a Canadian news board by a neocon, actually saying something to the effect "who are we to question the judgment of our government and the UN" in regards to the wars in the middle east. the scary thing too is it actually had a lot of mod points.
that for me is the worst of nationalism. herd mentality. my government is like my god. it is the only right thing and it can do no wrong.
I used to think I was into the idea of world government as it would bring about the end of wars, but I'm not so sure these days. The centralization of power leads to the destruction of democracy and culture, and has the potential to put psychopaths in unprecedented positions of control over humanity. but globalization seems to be the trend these days, so there is little point complaining about it, the process is already under way.
i do agree with restin as well, I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with wanting the best for your country, even defending your own when it is being attacked, and believing in a set of ideals. but i'd like to see a world where people take responsibility for their own thinking, where they put peacemaking ahead of proving how right they are. accountable government with decreased power. I think my country used to be this way, but these days it seems to be turning into Bush's lap dog.
nationalism is a mindset. a belief. taken to the extreme it becomes a dogmatic faith that your country is right, meaning if your country declares war on another country, you are in the right and the other side is by default wrong.
i saw a post today on a Canadian news board by a neocon, actually saying something to the effect "who are we to question the judgment of our government and the UN" in regards to the wars in the middle east. the scary thing too is it actually had a lot of mod points.
that for me is the worst of nationalism. herd mentality. my government is like my god. it is the only right thing and it can do no wrong.
I used to think I was into the idea of world government as it would bring about the end of wars, but I'm not so sure these days. The centralization of power leads to the destruction of democracy and culture, and has the potential to put psychopaths in unprecedented positions of control over humanity. but globalization seems to be the trend these days, so there is little point complaining about it, the process is already under way.
i do agree with restin as well, I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with wanting the best for your country, even defending your own when it is being attacked, and believing in a set of ideals. but i'd like to see a world where people take responsibility for their own thinking, where they put peacemaking ahead of proving how right they are. accountable government with decreased power. I think my country used to be this way, but these days it seems to be turning into Bush's lap dog.
I think it is...well depends on how you define the one and the other...
I see patriotism as love towards a country. A love towards home. Home is a place that you find even when you are so drunk you don't realize what you are doing. Home is beautiful.
"The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality." (Orwell)
This is dangerous. Exactly what you said.
By accepting Nationalism and the Neo-conservative movement, we are dancing on the edge of a knife. I remember a story from the Iraq war where a woman's son was sent to Iraq. She daily hanged her Stars 'n' Stripes before her house and was very proud of her nation and her son. She supported the war. Then her son died and she realized how blinded she was (or it was only an egoistic reaction "why is it always me". Well I think it is rather that). However, because of nationalists, war becomes more probable. We can't blame them though. If I see "ooooh Russia is killing civilans" then it is natural reaction that I become nationalistic. And who is makng propaganda? Yessssss, the state and the media.
restin a dit:
yeah, and herein lies the very nature of propaganda. propaganda by itself isn't enough to convince people. the people already have their belief system, a 30-second blurb isn't going to change that. what propaganda does do is solidify their beliefs.. it is preaching to the choir, giving people an outlet for their hatred and making them feel good about themselves. much like the two-minute hate in "1984".
hence in partisan politics you can choose your poison: the right wing or the left wing propaganda, facts, logic, reason be damned. left wing propaganda won't convince right-wingers, and vica versa. as for nationalism, if one chooses to be proud of one's country for going to iraq and blowing the shizz out of the country, one is going to feel good when one sees propaganda supporting the war.
propaganda exists so that rabid nationalists don't have to suffer from congnitive dissonance everytime they see the suffering their personal belief system has been in support of. the enemy is the monster, why feel bad torturing and destroying monsters? the civilians are so happy we are there, look we are handing out food to them on patrol. etc etc. we are making real progress, the suffering is temporary and worth it. this technique is as old as the hills, and is used because it WORKS
magickmumu
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Russia protected the civilians. And they plundered the city.
GOD
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Bye bye Georgia . Russia now controles the 4 oil pipe lines = they have the whole of europe by the balls now they control the oil and gas . We are in danger , imagine if they turned it off . After 3 days we are back in the stone age . The politicians that allowed us to be dependant on russia should be arrested and punished .
source? evidence?
EDIT: they controlled the gas transfer already before...
What happens if China suddendly stops the export? What if the US suddendly stops the stock market? What if all banks would take all the money the people have given them?
We are dependend...for a long time...
EDIT: they controlled the gas transfer already before...
What happens if China suddendly stops the export? What if the US suddendly stops the stock market? What if all banks would take all the money the people have given them?
We are dependend...for a long time...
GOD
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If china stoped exporting we wouldnt notice much .
America cant stop the stock market .
Banks who stole money would be closed and the thieves punished .
What if the sun didnt come up tomorow ?
What if if was because or a washing machine ?
The main european gas suply has come from russia for ages , but its only in the last few years that we are totaly dependant on it .
America cant stop the stock market .
Banks who stole money would be closed and the thieves punished .
What if the sun didnt come up tomorow ?
What if if was because or a washing machine ?
The main european gas suply has come from russia for ages , but its only in the last few years that we are totaly dependant on it .
Nowadays everything comes from China.
Why can't they? YES,because they are dependent of the money.
Russia can't stop the export. Why? YES,because they are dependent of the money.
"Banks who stole money would be closed and the thieves punished . "
No, I mean if all banks would take the money...
and the "What if"-game is mine. I wanted to make you aware that such questions are futile.
But of course, evil Putin wants to destroy Europe and be the new Fuhrer...how could I forget that....And we will be all forced to dring vodka instead of water...
Why can't they? YES,because they are dependent of the money.
Russia can't stop the export. Why? YES,because they are dependent of the money.
"Banks who stole money would be closed and the thieves punished . "
No, I mean if all banks would take the money...
and the "What if"-game is mine. I wanted to make you aware that such questions are futile.
But of course, evil Putin wants to destroy Europe and be the new Fuhrer...how could I forget that....And we will be all forced to dring vodka instead of water...
Caduceus Mercurius
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GOD
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"Nowadays everything comes from China. "
What ? What are we dependant on that comes from them ?
"No, I mean if all banks would take the money... "
Where would they go with it ? What could they do with it besides spend it = put it back in the system ? What would the people , the governments and the police do ?
You have very little understanding of politics and the balance of power . We need the gas and oil more than they need the money . They only need to cut it off for 3 days and we are in big shit . They dont even need to cut it off they just need to threaten to do it . Remember they did it to georgia and it caused havoc . Also remember that the russian gas deals and new pipelines were made possible by schroeder...... who now works for the gas company . The gas company was gasprom..... wich has now been totaly taken over by the russian government . Do you read the news ? The russians have contracts with BP and just started playing control games with BP . They just caused the BP representative trouble and said his visa was invalid . The attack on georgia shows that the russians believe that they are in the position to do it , to flex there muscles openly . The fact that they attacked georgia has more implications than just those for georgia .
Power has been the key to europe since before hitler attacked the russians to get the oil .
America is trying to cause a second cold war , so they can totaly controle europe again using the divide and rule tactic , by stationing offensive wepons in their rouge nation roket shield . Wich is actualy only there to cause trouble with the russians .
We are in a very precarious position .
What ? What are we dependant on that comes from them ?
"No, I mean if all banks would take the money... "
Where would they go with it ? What could they do with it besides spend it = put it back in the system ? What would the people , the governments and the police do ?
You have very little understanding of politics and the balance of power . We need the gas and oil more than they need the money . They only need to cut it off for 3 days and we are in big shit . They dont even need to cut it off they just need to threaten to do it . Remember they did it to georgia and it caused havoc . Also remember that the russian gas deals and new pipelines were made possible by schroeder...... who now works for the gas company . The gas company was gasprom..... wich has now been totaly taken over by the russian government . Do you read the news ? The russians have contracts with BP and just started playing control games with BP . They just caused the BP representative trouble and said his visa was invalid . The attack on georgia shows that the russians believe that they are in the position to do it , to flex there muscles openly . The fact that they attacked georgia has more implications than just those for georgia .
Power has been the key to europe since before hitler attacked the russians to get the oil .
America is trying to cause a second cold war , so they can totaly controle europe again using the divide and rule tactic , by stationing offensive wepons in their rouge nation roket shield . Wich is actualy only there to cause trouble with the russians .
We are in a very precarious position .
I see that this discussion is futile. I already wrote the facts in my previous posts.
Why don't you fear the US cutting the oil supply? Ah,they are the good ones.
Also I am quite disappointed by you. I thought you were openminded and immune against western propaganda. Well, no one is perfect.
Why don't you fear the US cutting the oil supply? Ah,they are the good ones.
Also I am quite disappointed by you. I thought you were openminded and immune against western propaganda. Well, no one is perfect.
GOD
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The americans cant cut the oil without cutting their own throats . They are dependant on it , thats why they caused all the trouble in iraq . Why they now have a big base in saudi arabia and a massive presence in the middle east .
"The facts"
What facts ? I dont seee any , you just made statements . I asked questions why didnt you answer them ?
The attack on georgia was planned for a long time , it happened , its not western propoganda . The cutting off of gas to georgia was a fact not western propoganda . There is tension being caused by a totaly unnesecery missile shield , whos only real purpose is to threaten the russians , polarise the sitruation and stop europe nearing russia , is a fact not western propoganda .
Explain what you mean and answer my questions please .
"The facts"
What facts ? I dont seee any , you just made statements . I asked questions why didnt you answer them ?
The attack on georgia was planned for a long time , it happened , its not western propoganda . The cutting off of gas to georgia was a fact not western propoganda . There is tension being caused by a totaly unnesecery missile shield , whos only real purpose is to threaten the russians , polarise the sitruation and stop europe nearing russia , is a fact not western propoganda .
Explain what you mean and answer my questions please .
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