Can a psychonaut be a psychonaut without drugs?

[structure4]

Gone

 

[Crimzen]

of course you can be a psychonaut without drugs
all you need is a mind and a disposition to explore it
entheogens are just a tool to help with exploration
one could say buddhist monks, for example, are psychonauts and they dont take drugs at all

i've been a psychonaut since i was a kid, i just never knew there was a word for it til i found this site

 

[maxfreakout]

without drugs it is practically impossible for most people to experience the kind of intense, mindblowing, consciousness-expanding altered states of consciousness which the entheogens provide 'on tap'. Drugs are an essential, indispensible tool for triggering transcendental cognitive dynamics safely, repeatably and reliably. There is no other method besides drugs that can guarantee access to the mystical realm.

a psychonaut without drugs is like an astronomer without a telescope, or a biologist without a microscope

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[Mescaline]

There is no other method besides drugs that can guarantee access to the mystical realm

Actually, and I'm pretty sure you are aware of this, holotropic breathwork does seem to be a reliable substitute to psychedelic drugs in order to have mystical experiences. Keyword might be "guarantee", it is not guaranteed 100%, but from what I gathered it does seem to work for a lot of people; how else would Grof have continued his research on holotropic states, after he was forced to discontinue using LSD and other psychedelics for his reasearch, if it wouldn't rather reliably induce those experiences..?

So would a psychonaut without drugs then be considered a philosopher?

I'd rather say a psychonaut without drugs is a combination of a psychologist and a philosopher plus the drive to experience the workings of the mind. But personally I would still call this a psychonaut. Maybe for some people taking away the tool of drugs might leave them 'helpless' and unable to dive into the subject as deep as before, but I do not believe this to be true for most people. Actually I believe they will be more able to have the same experiences without drugs compared to when they would have never taken any psychedelics, but of course it would take a little more 'effort' to get there compared to using drugs.

Anyway I'd say the distinction between those three 'disciplines' is quite small. Literally a psychonaut is a "sailor of the mind", a psychologist the "word of the mind", and a philosopher is a "lover of wisdom", so that pretty much sums it up.
If you are venturing through your mind discovering 'hidden' places or whatever you want to name them, then you are a psychonaut, regardless of whether you accomplish this through drug-use or not. When you just love thinking and talking about fundamental aspects of life, including mystical experiences, but not limited to subjects of the 'mind' or 'psyche', yet you make no attempt of actually experiencing any of it, then you are a philosopher. Lastly in case you are a bit more scientifically inclined, and like thinking about, describing and researching the workings of solely the mind, but still not attempting to tread on 'new ground' by experiencing it, then you are a psychologist; a psychologist is (in my experience :b) not much more than a philosopher specialized in philosophy of mind (and behaviour) and restricting him- or herself to the scientific methode of gathering knowledge and explaining phenomena.
So, according to me you'd qualify as a psychonaut, as you said you have been to some of these places through music. But in the end you yourself are the only one who can truly judge whether you are a psychonaut or not, as you are the only one who can judge whether you truly are looking for and experiencing the 'mystical realm'.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I think it is important to take a strong psychedelic once, but once that is complete, the door is open, and no more is necessary.

My opinion.

 

[Guest]

Can a psychonaut be a psychonaut without drugs?

Of course he can.

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'll say this, and I think it may apply to you as well;

I've never found myself more in-tune with art and creativity than I have been sober. Hallucinogens and weed can exaggerate my abilities, and I find I have more ideas, but the sober mind always trumps that of the distant mind in the realm of creativity.

I have often wondered if people like steve jobs, watson & crick, and other famous inventors and scientists would have made their discoveries without the advent of psychedelics. I think it is most certainly possible, and I would hate to see so much emphasis be put on hallucinogens apposed to the people's innate creativity... For me personally, they stir the most tremendous amount of motivation and aspiration, inspiration. They do not create new ideas, only push to me explore deeper that which was already there.

Like we all have said, they are tools, they can be used to better one's self, however, they are simply tools, and in the end - your own creativity and exploratory self is the entity yielding them.

 

[maxfreakout]

There is no other method besides drugs that can guarantee access to the mystical realm

Actually, and I'm pretty sure you are aware of this, holotropic breathwork does seem to be a reliable substitute to psychedelic drugs in order to have mystical experiences. Keyword might be "guarantee", it is not guaranteed 100%, but from what I gathered it does seem to work for a lot of people; how else would Grof have continued his research on holotropic states, after he was forced to discontinue using LSD and other psychedelics for his reasearch, if it wouldn't rather reliably induce those experiences..?

There are numerous techniques that are often put forward as drug-free alternatives to entheogens for causing psychedelic states of consciousness, aswell as breathwork there is also meditation, chanting, drumming yoga etc etc

but when any of these techniques are compared to entheogens, they all fall so very far behind entheogens that it doesnt make any sense to think of them as 'substitutes', they are more like placebos than substitutes. Sometimes, rarely, some people experience intense psychedelic states of consciousness by doing breathwork, just as sometimes, rarely, people recover from illness after being administered a placebo.

By contrast, EVERY time someone takes a decent dose of entheogens, they will experience the psychedelic state, there are no drug-free alternatives that can claim to be anywhere near this reliable. With entheogens, the intense mystical state of consciousness is easily accesible, on tap to absolutely everyone. Without entheogens, the intense mystical state is completely off-limits, to almost everyone.

The only reason Grof started talking about 'breathwork' was just because LSD was made illegal (ie NOT because breathwork is a good substitute for LSD), breathwork isnt a reliable substitute to LSD (it doesnt typically make you have intense psychedelic experiences) but on the other hand it is at least legal. It is very rare indeed for people to be able to trigger the same kinds of intense, mentally transformative altered states of consciousness that come 100% reliably when using entheogens. So where entheogens are 100% effective, the drug-free techniques (breathing chanting meditating etc etc) are more like 1% (charitably) effective

If we define 'psychonaut' as 'a person who explores the depths of the mind', then it is practically a truism that you cannot be a psychonaut without repeated use of these drugs, because it is only when you are actually tripping on drugs that 'exploring the mind' becomes a real possibility, during the ordinary (sober, undrugged) state of consciousness, the mind is invisible

 

[ararat]

you can explore your mind in the sober state quite well, what one needs is the willingness and humility to do so.

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[IJesusChrist]

I think if you were to speak with some of the people who have stopped heroine cold shoulder after ayahuasca you would begin to see how powerful that drug is. . . I don't want to belittle the experience of dying but a shamanic dose of ayahuasca, you will not question that you actually died.

But I do agree that DMT does not seem to poses a great beneficial characteristic like others do - DMT is very short and as soon as you realize what just happened, you have forgotten what it meant, yet the images stay. However, DMT did allow me to see "Love" for the first time in years; pure love from which I had been blinded for quite a while from.

I also agree that a real near-death experience is much more profound. I know of a person who had a near death experience, and someone came to him and said

"You are going to live. You will have two sons, you will name them Greg and Jason."

And, of course, it came to be true.

I do not condone nor condemn the use of entheogens, it is a choice with outcomes so variable and complex to rival life itself. When it really comes down to the bottom line, there is no right or wrong - you decide these morals, you decide your path, or so is the illusion that comes with the ride. I'm going too far for this discussion...

 

[maxfreakout]

maxfreakout "There is no other method besides drugs that can guarantee access to the mystical realm."

You don't really believe that, do you? What about music, the arts, meditation, and the sciences just to name a few. I can think of many, many ways to enter the "mystical realm", and drugs actually comprise only a small fraction of the list.

when i say 'access the mystical realm' i just mean 'trigger the intense psychedelic state of consciousness', ie the state of consciousness in which the mind itself becomes a manifest object of perception

and there are no other ways to do this besides taking drugs, ie listening to music (or looking at art or meditating etc) without drugs will never trigger this profound alteration of consciousness, you will remain in the ordinary state until you take drugs.

Drugs, by contrast, automatically guarantee you access to this state of consciousness

 

[maxfreakout]

But I do agree that DMT does not seem to poses a great beneficial characteristic like others do - DMT is very short and as soon as you realize what just happened, you have forgotten what it meant, yet the images stay. However, DMT did allow me to see "Love" for the first time in years; pure love from which I had been blinded for quite a while from.

it's the same with smoked salvia, it doesnt last long enough to effect permanent mental transformation

A 5-hour ayahuasca trip on the other hand can certainly be a thoroughly life-changing experience

 

[Crimzen]

Maxfreakout you seem to be pretty close minded for a psychonaut
firstly i'd like to say that psychonautism doesnt directly translate as 'exploring mystical realms' etymologically it means one who explores ones mind
drugs are not necessary for one to explore ones own mind, sure they can give you entirely new perspectives and give you easy access to places in your mind that would take more time and effort to reach without the drugs
If you think a psychonaut without drugs is like an astronomer without a telescope then you need to learn how to use your mind properly and stop leaning on drugs as a crutch

What about dreams and non drug induced altered states of consciousness? lucid dreaming for example is by definition an experience of the mind which one can use to explore ones mind

 

[ararat]

drugs as a crutch

the thing about psychonautism as maxfreakout propagandizes it is that you need drugs for that. no supply --> no spirituality, which means as much as the source of happiness lying outside of oneself, which is a situation full of fear because you can loose the source of your happiness, and that isn't very enjoyable as many of us know.

it seems to me that the potential for joy and love is an inner potential, and nothing outer depends on it. drugs undo many barriers and roadblocks to that place, and let you see something that feels infinitely more real than anything one experienced before, but some time along the path one will have to (or not..) learn how to go these places without the said crutches.

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[maxfreakout]

firstly i'd like to say that psychonautism doesnt directly translate as 'exploring mystical realms' etymologically it means one who explores ones mind

psychonautism is about exploring the mind, and psychedelic drugs are the (mind-manifesting) tools that open up the mind for exploration

during a psychedelic trip, the mind becomes manifest as an object of perception, and therefore psychedelia (ie intense tripping) is a pre-requisite for psychonautism. In the ordinary state of consciousness, the mind is completely hidden/invisible, it requires the drugs to make it come out of hiding.

sure they can give you entirely new perspectives and give you easy access to places in your mind that would take more time and effort to reach without the drugs

those "places" are the psychedelic altered states of consciousness (ie the trips), and without the drugs, it is practically impossible (not merely 'taking more time and effort') to get to that place

there is no technique, besides taking entheogens, which allows you to controllably, repeatably, reliably experience the psychedelic state which is a pre-requisite for psychonautism

If you think a psychonaut without drugs is like an astronomer without a telescope then you need to learn how to use your mind properly and stop leaning on drugs as a crutch

calling drugs a 'crutch' is as senseless as calling oxygen a 'crutch', you need drugs to trip hard reliably and repeatably (ie whenever you want to), and you need oxygen to breathe. No techinique of 'using your mind properly' will enable you to trip hard without taking drugs

What about dreams and non drug induced altered states of consciousness? lucid dreaming for example is by definition an experience of the mind which one can use to explore ones mind

here ^ you are failing to distinguish between 'techniques' (which are used) and 'experiences' (which are experienced). Whilst it is true that lucid dream experiences allow you to explore the mind to some extent, there is no technique that you can use to trigger lucid dream experiences repeatably and reliably.

drugs, meditating, fasting etc are 'techniques', dreams and altered states are 'experiences'

you 'use' techniques, you do not 'use' experiences. Lucid dreaming isnt a technique that can be used, and there are no techniques which repeatably and reliably cause you to have lucid dreams. Taking psychedelic drugs is a technique which allows you to repeatably and reliably trigger psychedelic altered state experiences, and there are no other techniques besides drugs which allows you to do this

 

[maxfreakout]

the thing about psychonautism as maxfreakout propagandizes it is that you need drugs for that. no supply --> no spirituality

not 'no drugs = no spirituality'

rather: 'no drugs = no mindblowing psychedelic experiences'

you need drugs in order to trip

which means as much as the source of happiness lying outside of oneself

you can be happy without tripping! It isnt the source of happiness that lies outside of your body, rather it is the source of psychedelic trip experiences that lies outside of your body, the ground/earth/nature is the source of psychedelic mushrooms etc, just as the ground is the source of all your food and oxygen.

it seems to me that the potential for joy and love is an inner potential, and nothing outer depends on it. drugs undo many barriers and roadblocks to that place, and let you see something that feels infinitely more real than anything one experienced before, but some time along the path one will have to (or not..) learn how to go these places without the said crutches.

if by "these places" you really mean "mindblowing psychedelic trip experiences" then there is simply no way to go there without using the entheogenic 'crutches'. But you will never have to, psychedelic drugs are growing out of the ground all over the world and they always will be