Can a psychonaut be a psychonaut without drugs?

[IJesusChrist]

max, ... nevermind, whatever.

 

[ophiuchus]

i just see his point in that, the experience that psychedelics gives a person are somewhat standalone. but at the same time i don't agree in whatever semantics he was (verbally or non-verbally insinuating) about that (and also about attaining "mystical" states reliably), and also being a "psychonaut" by it's definition. i honestly can't agree with anyone here...

however, personally, i find a lot of truth in everyones words as well. it's been a good read honestly, like a dialogue that i might run in my own head. but ultimately i cannot come to a conclusion on really any of these points, other than the original topic:

i do believe well that a psychonaut can definitely be a psychonaut without drugs. in my opinion, everyone is a psychonaut, whether or not they even know it. we humans are here not only to exist and explore in this external world, but to exist and explore our internal world just the same. to neglect one, or to favor one over the other is doing oneself a disservice in my opinion, or most certainly limiting ones potential...

anyways, dont want to ruffle any feathers, there were just some things that struck me that i felt i should address.

 

[Reasonablelogic]

i do believe well that a psychonaut can definitely be a psychonaut without drugs. in my opinion, everyone is a psychonaut, whether or not they even know it. we humans are here not only to exist and explore in this external world, but to exist and explore our internal world just the same. to neglect one, or to favor one over the other is doing oneself a disservice in my opinion, or most certainly limiting ones potential...

In this I could agree.

As far as drugs go, our minds already possess some of the strongest compounds known, they simply require a catalyst or even a form of activation energy. Using drugs is usually the quickest way to reach psychedelic states, but I believe like the immune system, if we register certain chemicals into our nervous system one time, that is all that's needed and you'd be able to reach these states on your own if you really have control your mind. Certain experiences such as near-death, intimate-sex, etc activate these compounds as well.

What ever gets you there, gets you there.

 

[ophiuchus]

i dont wish to beat a dead horse or toot my own horn really, but i believe and know now, firsthand, that mystical states can be reached on a regular basis, and yes, to a slightly lesser degree than psychedelics, but to the same effect, yet, much more consistently and frequently, than through taking drugs(tolerance), with exercise. at the physical level that i'm reaching now, i can have these experiences to a pretty extreme degree every other day. that is taking a rest day to recuperate the day after each intense exercise. that is not to say that i actually do this all week long, but i will do this at least once or twice a week, in the order of a wave, geared to peak my abilities all at once at a specific time that i choose/plan.

you don't have to take my word for it, in fact, i'd prefer that nobody just believe me, because ultimately it's just one man's opinion. but if anyone ever musters the will to put forth the dedication and energy, they will know.

if anyones curious of my routine, the gist of it is here:

i focus mainly on cardio, i am a muay thai practitioner, so my regimen is highly centralized around cardio in many forms, be it running, drills with a partner, footwork exercises etc, really it's about the max amount of muscle confusion in the min amount of time. in fact, i should state that none of the experiences i mentioned will ever be attainable with exercise, unless there is a core focus on cardio. it's all about the heart rate and breathing.

it generally starts out light (coming out of the last peak) ill go for a hike, light jog or skate(board) the day after a intense peaking exercise, just something to keep the blood flowing. the next day, it is a good exercise, but i dont push myself, i focus more on form and doing everything properly, i make sure to reserve my energy. the next day is more intense, but still reserved very much, technique, form, and precision is still the primary focus. the next day, can be a building of the same, as well as the day after that, ad nauseum, until i feel like my body will recover enough energy after resting and sleeping that night to peak the next day. the cycle length always changes and is very dependent on my overall energy level. but, depending on my energy levels, after 2-3 days, i am typically ready for a peaking exercise (keep in mind i've been doing this for about a year straight now, with a background in sports in my youth). so this day, this peaking workout, i give it my all. really pushing the limits of my body and my mind. these days build not only my strength, endurance, agility, etc of a normal workout, but also my tolerance to pain, as well my will to carry on, to not quit, until physical failure. these are the days, my mind is not clouded with thought, and if i close my eyes momentarily, i see very vivid closed eye visuals, typically mandala-like in nature. i don't feel "normal", i feel pretty much like i have taken a dose of mushrooms or what have you during the middle of this exercise. this lasts for a long time, the entire duration of the workout, really until my heart rate is back to normal. but as with a trip, a feeling of peace and tranquility remains with me throughout the day.

i really hope the purpose of this is not seen as me flexing my muscles at everyone. i really don't need or want praise for what i do. all i want is to share this gift with as many open ears as possible. it's just that, i believe (and even used to think myself) that the extremity of this feeling has really been extremely under-emphasized whenever it's talked about. the nature of this experience goes beyond simple fitness and really becomes that of a spiritual experience. ego is put aside and the universe and oneself really physically become a state of unity, working together seamlessly, if even for a brief period. but really, nobody has to do what i do to the degree that i do it, it can be done with simpler more practical things every day. jogging, hiking, jumping rope, are just a few examples. once your mind becomes absorbed in the activity, you lose yourself and begin to enter a state of mind free of thinking, one fully involved in the experience at hand, and then one can really begin to have fun with it.

maybe it's just me, but, whenever i find myself just sitting around for long periods of time, i get this inner restlessness, this strong desire to do. it can become anxiety if not acted upon for long enough. i've had times where it can even lead to depression, where i get to the point that i don't even really want to do anything anymore. it's like it becomes a vortex and im sucked in. but you can also create your own positive vortex, with determination, consistency comes, and the energy to do it requires less and less effort. and really this can be applied to anything, not just exercise, im sure you can think of other examples. well anyways, rambling now. *steps off the soap box* thanks for reading.

 

[maxfreakout]

It is certainly *possible* to have mystical experiences without drugs but the concept of possibility is a
matter of degree and ergonomics. Drug-free mystical experiences are rare, fleeting, mild, and
difficult to trigger, whereas by contrast, by taking drugs these experiences are commonplace, long-lasting, powerful/intense and easy to trigger

 

[ararat]

I can accept that.

however, drug-free mystical experiences seem fleeting because as soon one sees them coming one tries to hold them because they are finally here, but it is very contrary to mystical states to hold them tight. so the fastest way to get rid of them is to try to keep them. at the same time they seem infinitely more graceful, since one didn't have to 'trigger' them, but more so to give yourself in, or surrender, to them.

last summer was immensely beautiful in that respect. I remember sitting in the garden, and like a wind going through my head, blowing the sense of self out of the body into space, the intricate details and fractality of the tree's leafs and thorns became very apparent. gravity lost its force, everything seemed very alive. remembering the experience, it seems like I saw myself from above, although at the time it wasn't like that I think.
walking on the street, a thought came, "All is God", and with every step distinctions dropped away, and a shining unity was left. as I walked on - I was photographing things - I met an old lady who still knew me from the time I was a small child (it was the street I grew up in). talking to her was amazing, since I had no restrictions in me, no fear whatsoever (what should I be fearful about when all is god?).


don't worry about tooting your own horn allusion, I thoroughly enjoy reading stuff like this from other people, sharing their experiences and ways

 

[BrainEater]

sounds amazing banana!!

god is only one person!!..thus fear only god!

..and enjoy!! 8)

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[youtube]hF8ANdiSu_c[/youtube]

[youtube]stkD-Pk94no[/youtube]

 

[Crimzen]

It is certainly *possible* to have mystical experiences without drugs but the concept of possibility is a
matter of degree and ergonomics. Drug-free mystical experiences are rare, fleeting, mild, and
difficult to trigger, whereas by contrast, by taking drugs these experiences are commonplace, long-lasting, powerful/intense and easy to trigger

The question is whether or not one can be a psychonaut without drugs, not whether one can induce mystical experiences without them

sure psychedelics can be used as tools to help one have a 'mystical' experience, thats obvious
but its also beside the point

 

[maxfreakout]

The question is whether or not one can be a psychonaut without drugs, not whether one can induce mystical experiences without them

there is no difference, these 2 issues are essentially equivalent

replace the word 'mystical' with the word 'psychedelic' and the same thing is still true, it is practically impossible to trigger psychedelic (mystical) experiences on demand without drugs
The connection between the psychedelic (mind manifesting) state of consciousness, and the project of ‘being a psychonaut’ (exploring the mind) is obvious, the psychedelic state makes the mind manifest so that it can be explored, whereas in the ordinary state, the mind is invisible

So one cannot ‘explore the mind’ (ie, be a psychonaut) without taking drugs, because the mind-manifesting state is inaccessible

 

[Crimzen]

listen mate, i suppose you're just speaking from personal experience but i know alot of people who explore their mind whilst sober, self included, therefore its no 'practically impossible' it is in fact possible and not even such a hardy task

things which are mystical and the mind and two very separate things, though parts of the mind may trigger mystical experiences the whole of psychonautism cannot simply be summed up as mysticism

if your mind is so invisible to you when you're sober then you really should look harder, because its right there..
especially since you have had psychedelics it should be easier to 'explore the mind' in your normal mindstate

Take a few minutes out of your day and turn your thoughts inward

even the act of analyzing a trip the day or a week after is an act of psychonautism

 

[structure4]

Gone

 

[maxfreakout]

listen mate, i suppose you're just speaking from personal experience but i know alot of people who explore their mind whilst sober, self included, therefore its no 'practically impossible' it is in fact possible and not even such a hardy task

things which are mystical and the mind and two very separate things, though parts of the mind may trigger mystical experiences the whole of psychonautism cannot simply be summed up as mysticism

if your mind is so invisible to you when you're sober then you really should look harder, because its right there..
especially since you have had psychedelics it should be easier to 'explore the mind' in your normal mindstate

Take a few minutes out of your day and turn your thoughts inward

even the act of analyzing a trip the day or a week after is an act of psychonautism

psychedelic drugs are the only tool/technique/practise which allow easy and convenient access to the intense psychedelic altered state of consciousness (ie tripping). Without the drugs, this specific experience is practically inaccessible, there is no way you can have a powerful, temporary psychedelic 'trip' whenever you want, unless you take drugs.

psychedelic experience is a very specific thing, and as such it has a very specific difference to our 'ordinary' experience
it is important to recognise and acknowledge this, because only then you can begin to isolate the 'trip' experience for the purpose of building a conceptual model (a map) of it, to see what it is and what connection it has to the 'ordinary' state of consciousness.

The label 'psychedelic' directly points to this peculiarity of the entheogen-intoxicated state of consciousness which makes it different from the 'ordinary' - ie non-intoxicated, non-psychedelic state of consciousness. In the psychedelic state, the mind is manifested, that is exactly what 'psyche-delic' literally means, mind-manifesting, that contrasts the psychedelic state with the sober state because the sober undrugged state of consciousness is emphatically NOT psyche-delic, the mind is NOT manifested, it is merely implicit/in the background rather than the foreground.

the analogies i mentioned earlier serve to demonstrate this contrast between the psychedelic vs non-psychedelic states of consciousness. The surface of a pond is invisible so long as it is perfectly still/unpeturbed, you only see the reflections in the surface, not the surface itself, when you warp the surface of the pond by throwing a stone into the pond, the surface itself becomes temporarily visible.
The film reel in a cinema is invisible so long as it has no glitches on it, when a glitch occurs, the cinema audience suddenly see the projection of the reel itself, rather than just the movie on the reel.

you can only see the film reel itself when there is a glitch, you can only see the surface of the water itself when there is a splash, at all other times, the medium of representation (the surface) is invisible. Similarly, the mind, the 'surface' of consciousness, only become directly, explicitly and undeniably (ie intensely) visible/apparent when it is perturbed by the mind-bending mind-manifesting psychedelic flip-trip, at all other times when one is not tripping, the mind remains as transparent and invisible as the surface of a perfectly clean mirror. Taking a strong dose of an entheogen = throwing a pebble into the 'pool' of the mind, just ask yourself - what do entheogens give you that you never quite get by any other means? - the answer is that entheogens give you reliable, repeatable, controllable, 'on tap' access to super-intense psychedelic experiences, no other method comes anywhere near to the immediate efficacy of the drugs. Trying to access intense mystical/psychedelic states of consciousness without drugs, is as arbitrary, artificial and pointless as trying to screw in a screw without a screwdriver, when screwdrivers are literally growing out of the ground at your feet. Don't be fooled by the lie that drug-free meditation/yoga/breathwork etc are alternatives to taking entheogens, they arent, the best way to treat these techniques is as adjuncts to drugs, not as alternatives, the mind is never truly manifested (in the most absolutely full and explicit way) except in the depths of intense mind-manifesting drug trip-sessions

the term 'psychonaut' refers to the fact that you can actively explore the mind in the psychedelic state, because it becomes directly manifest as an object of perception, you can look at it and explore it for a short time until the drugs are metabolised and the mind settles back down into the stereotypical ruts of ordinary state experience, so that you can draw maps of it back in the ordinary state, just as all explorers do when they become familiar with foreign territory. So if you will post on a website called 'psychonaut', you should at the very least be capable of recognizing the difference between the intense mindblowing psychedelic trip experiences, and the ordinary non-psychedelic experiences

 

[Crimzen]

dude, you're just repeating yourself over and over without adding any new information
i get what you're saying and i agree to a degree with parts of what you said
the issue here is just that you and I have separate definitions of the word psychonaut
Psychonaut and psychedelic are 2 different things that overlap at the edges

Im willing to agree that there is nothing that is the same as a psychedelic trip, however there are alternative methods to reaching different mental states
A good real world example of such would be looking at hindu art and philosophy from before anyone knew of lsd and psychedelic wasnt even a word, you look at the art and ponder the philosophy and you can clearly see that they had reached different mind states that were in fact very similar to psychedelic trips.
How else can you explain the many armed deities, the coloured auras and the fractalesque symbolism?

I have personally experienced different states on consciousness which were separate from psychedelic ones but were clearly comparable if not as 'full-on' and in your face as a full blown acid trip
therefore i cannot agree that psychedelics are the one and only path to being a psychonaut

 

[maxfreakout]

the issue here is just that you and I have separate definitions of the word psychonaut

No the issue here is that you don’t have a clear concept of ‘mind’ (psyche)

Psychonaut and psychedelic are 2 different things that overlap at the edges

Psychonaut means ‘explorer of mind’, psychedelic means ‘mind-manifestation’, the mind must be made manifest before it can be explored, in the non-psychedelic state of consciousness, the mind is not manifest, it is invisible and therefore cannot be explored

Im willing to agree that there is nothing that is the same as a psychedelic trip,

Right this is the crucial point, the mind-manifesting experience is only accessible ‘on tap’ by taking entheogens, without the drugs, the mind cannot be made manifest to consciousness (it cannot be ‘splashed‘ so that its surface becomes visible), therefore mind is invisible, ie non-manifest, non psyche-delic, like a clean unblemished mirror

however there are alternative methods to reaching different mental states

Yes that is obvious, for example pain is a mental state, I can make myself experience pain by putting my finger in a flame

But the only method for accessing the specifically ‘psyche-delic’ intense mind-manifesting mental state reliably on-command, is by taking drugs

A good real world example of such would be looking at hindu art and philosophy from before anyone knew of lsd and psychedelic wasnt even a word,

There has never been a time when humans werent taking entheogens and tripping out, mushrooms are as old as humanity

Hinduism, just like all religion and mythology, essentially consists of a collection of psychedelic trip-reports. Read about ‘soma’ the psychedelic sacrament of the Rig Vedas (hindu holy scriptures). Entheogens have been with humans since the very beginning, since long before hindu art ever existed

you look at the art and ponder the philosophy and you can clearly see that they had reached different mind states that were in fact very similar to psychedelic trips.

No they experienced psychedelic trips because they were tripping out after consuming entheogenic plants, humanity has ALWAYS been taking drugs

How else can you explain the many armed deities, the coloured auras and the fractalesque symbolism?

There is a very obvious explanation, - DRUGS, people see many-armed deities and powerful fractal visions when they are tripping, not at any other time.

The hindu god ‘shiva’ is a symbol of the psilocybin mushroom, he has blue skin (just like shrooms) and he is always depicted in the art standing next to cows (just as shrooms love to grow from cow dung), for the ancient hindus, the blue psilocybin mushroom is the ‘fruit’ of the cow, holy cow, holy shit etc, when eaten it causes intense divine experiences

I have personally experienced different states on consciousness which were separate from psychedelic ones but were clearly comparable if not as 'full-on' and in your face as a full blown acid trip
therefore i cannot agree that psychedelics are the one and only path to being a psychonaut

without psychedelic drugs, the psyche cannot be fully manifested, and remains invisible (unmanifest) and therefore cannot be explored

The specifically ‘psyche-delic’ mental state is only accessible via the drugs, just as space is only accessible via the spacerocket

 

[Crimzen]

yet again
you are mostly just repeating yourself, psychedelic and psychonaut= 2 different things
psychedelic = manifestation of the mind
psychonautic = exploration of the mind
questioning whether or not i have a clear concept of the mind is redundant and a weak attempt at baiting

you cant attribute all spiritual experience to entheogens, you have no proof for 1, nor do you have the experience (clearly)
you cant attribute all mind exploration to psychedelics, you have a mind and all you need to do is turn it back upon itself and you are exploring your mind, you claim to be incapable of this and so believe that all humanity is also incapable of it
pain is a sensation not a mental state, it can be used to reach another mental state but that is something different

i have personal experience of exploring my mind without drugs and i know several people who are the same, you can disbelieve it all you want but thats your loss

you are a close minded fool and i really am done here

 

[ararat]

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[IJesusChrist]

[youtube]kEogJacjLTE[/youtube]

 

[BrainEater]

"forgive them for they don't know what they are doing." - who knows

yes please stop that kind of retardism, please.
it's just annoying and retarded. and on topic as a "reply" to maxfreakout i refer to my previous posts.
do you really think your argument gonna change so much if you formulate it slightly differently and others
would significantly understand better your point of view?
in addition to that.. why should we listen to you or your arguments if it seems like you don't listen to ours, really??
if you blame others for their ignorance while being possibly even more ignorant yourself, that is clearly ignorant, like saying you have learned oh so much and at the same time it seems you are not really open for learning. so get your shit straight, ait??
but yeah anyway... hindu religious symbologies or so are for sure very deep, meaningful and fascinating..

and watch out for your pain for it may evolve to a mental state or even vice versa omfg!! :? :shock:



peace 8)

 

[Crimzen]

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[maxfreakout]

hindu religious symbologies or so are for sure very deep, meaningful and fascinating.

precisely because it symbolises the psychedelic trip experience, which is (as we all know) very deep, meaningful and fascinating


ALL religion and mythology, not just hinduism, is pointing to and describing the psychedelic trip experience