Sums up why I almost left the forum.

[GOD]

Dont talk yourself in circles . What have the writen laws of rational thinking got to do with when science started ? = nothing .

All scientists in times since the church began didnt get payed by them or agree with them . Not in the areas the church controled and not in the rest of the world .

"However the movement of european scientists that are nowadays the spreaders of most evil of modern science! "

Thats stupid . Its a generalisation and its not true .

" is that better?"

No .

 

[restin]

What scientist where financed by the church?

e.g. Astronomy/Physics. Science looked much more different back then. Philosophy was also supported by the church.

EDIT: maybe you need to differ between modern science and science in general.

 

[magickmumu]

WOW
There is no need to apologise.
:lol:

I am just trying to understand what you're trying to bring across.
I am not all knowing :lol:

 

[GOD]

You need to diferentiate between some and all and thats not a maybe . And also between modern science and church inspired / controled / aproved and payed for science , and all modern science .

Your both talking absolute undefendable shit and what anoys me is you both know it .

 

[magickmumu]

What scientist where financed by the church?

e.g. Astronomy/Physics. Science looked much more different back then. Philosophy was also supported by the church.

EDIT: maybe you need to differ between modern science and science in general.

Yes that maybe true.
But generally speaking the (RC) church was suppressing knowledge back then, not supporting it.

 

[magickmumu]

Let's put it this way.
The church was supporting Aristotelian logic and theological knowledge.

The science I am talking about is not Aristotelian logic or theology, but a process that uses experimentation the gain knowledge.

 

[Dantediv86]

that's what i'm trying to talk about!

 

[restin]

But generally speaking the (RC) church was suppressing knowledge back then, not supporting it.

mhm I think this is too far generalized. There were no "scientific" movements back there. The desperate struggle of the Church for survival is a modern phenomenon. Priests and philosophers (e.g. Thomas von Aquin) honestly believed in what they did. They were no evil devils who were against all living and knowledge. This was a worldview. You must also remember that the methods of calculation were very different and more primitive back then.

GOD: I won't go into your provocation. I am not talking about a personal opinion - I am only telling what is true. So you state that modern science is not suppressive? That it is not payed by companies etc.? That science was supported by the church back then does not prove any dishonesty at all.

The science I am talking about is not Aristotelian logic or theology, but a process that uses experimentation the gain knowledge.

this is a too short statement to be true. Astrologists back then also watched stars - it was also OBSERVATION they used. Sure it differs from how the world is seen nowadays.

 

[GOD]

Restin stop talking crap .

You are talking about your personal opinions .

"So you state that modern science is not suppressive?"

I never said that . But no it isnt . Some of it might be .

"That it is not payed by companies etc.? "

Its not . Some of it is . But what has that got to do with what i have said or what you have said = nothing .

Your just waffeling again , trying to move the goal posts because you dont want to admit youve been talking crap and generaliseing .

"this is a too short statement to be true."

JFC . That isnt true . The length of a statement or claim doesnt prove or disprove anything . Plus if it did it would prove your statement to be total crap because its even shorter .

 

[magickmumu]

I don't think people likeThomas von Aquin where evil devils. Nor do a believe in a black and white view on the church and science.

Maybe I was over generalizing, but that's why i wrote: generaly speaking. I think saying the church invented science is also a generalization.

What it all comes down to is power. Knowledge is power.
The church was in a struggle for power back then and it still is today.

 

[GOD]

Off topic .

About the lyeing for power tactic of the church . The official dogma of the catholic church and other churches says that the bible is gods word and that the story of god makeing the earth and everything else is true . From that they claim and it follows that the only life in the universe is on earth . But in the bible it says in one place that there are people on another planet .

 

[restin]

Maybe I was over generalizing, but that's why i wrote: generaly speaking. I think saying the church invented science is also a generalization.

I never said any different.

GOD, no, it is you who is talking crap. I won't write in this thread any more.

 

[magickmumu]

So we understand each other

Science has more ancient roots then the church.
Long before the church there was science being practice.
And there was science in parts of the world that had nothing to do with the Church.

And it's also true that the church suppressed and manipulating knowledge, today and in the past. You could call it a generalization, but you can,t convince me it didn't happen.

Of course I am aware not everything is black and white.

 

[restin]

of course we do. That's what I was saying.

I would never dare saying that the church was flawless - meaning that it did not suppress progress or knowledge. I also will not dispute the rate of suppression. What I want to say is that this suppressing activity was not the main task of what the church did. The theistic worldview which as you all argue suppressed "real" science - that's what I am trying to say - is not a result of pontificial suppression but a result of the then-Zeitgeist. Atheism is a modern phenomenon, most of the star-scientists were not atheists either.

 

[GOD]

Why am i talking crap ? What have i said thats wrong ? The only reason you say you wont write in this thread anymore is because what you have said is mostly indefencable crap and generalisations and you know it . You didnt amswer my last post because if you were honest youd have to admit it was right and what you said was total shit .

I`ve said things in reply to yours and Dantes posts and youve replyed to them . If we hadnt had diferent opinions or i had missunderstood you or you werent saying what you seemed to be saying you would have explained that at the time . You didnt you just kept on argueing , dodgeing and diveing and trying to move the goal posts .

Your not stupid and your not badly educated , either stand up for what youve said , explain it / make your points clear and answer my questions , or admit it was crap or drop out because you cant .

 

[GOD]

OK you did it while i was writeing my reply . If it hurt sorry . I wrote it because i was disapointed in what you were saying and how you were saying it . Because i know your capeable of better .

 

[restin]

I don't need the urge to explain when I am said to simply talk crap. Either you say you don't understand what I write or you point something out and tell me you disagree. I am not a fan of the church. Not at all. I truly believe that true religion can only be found by oneself.

BUT.

There is a recent tendency to just throw away everything the church did and hate it. The inquisition and suppression seems to be the only thing that stayed from the church. These are just some misunderstandings I want to get rid of. And that's the only thing I say (shortly): science was not born from the ashes of the church. Science - only in a different form was conducted by the church as well. Most of it - of course - only has philosophical value nowadays. But nonetheless, this is part of our human, social evolution. And it is weird that you say that I generalize. Because what I want to do is exactly the opposite - to diminish wrong generalizations.

And these are not opinions. These are things I learned and acquired.

And yes, it hurt, actually.

 

[magickmumu]

Restin made himself clear to me. If you two want to argue a little bit more, that's fine but I am going to bed now.
Good night.

 

[mysticwarrior]

The inquisition

I remember i've been on a vacation in france, where they had a torture museum. WTF, you get sick while watching to those torture devices and technique`s :shock: If we had still lived in those times..... Man we had a huge problem, that for sure!

 

[ochho]

Inquisition, Suppression, Crusades and all the power/control/riches in possession of The Church..
And things of the like of this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Cath ... buse_cases

Very negative points on The Church's CV if you ask me.

I am not criticizing Christianity though, as I truly respect it's values..(I am of christian origins myself) but The Church has done very bad things.. no one can hide it.

PS: I am also not attacking everyone involved with the church, I've known very heart-inspiring, passionate priests and nuns, and I truly respect those people..even though my convictions do not agree with theirs.

Just my opinion