Some Chat about Existentialism etc.

[Forkbender]

^I don't think it is a real good idea to recommend Sartre to someone contemplating suicide. I get suicidal just reading his words.

IF (and that is a big IF) you want to read philosophy to further you on this path, I would recommend reading Discipline and Punishment by Foucault and then progress to some of his later writings about techniques of the self. Veeeery interesting (I devoted my thesis to it).

EDIT: restin added the title to this topic because he was to stupid to do that beforehand

 

[restin]

really? Read..."The Existentialism is a Humanism", it is an essay and there he explains very well, why Existentialism is an optimistic philosophy...if you like to dive into it, we could split the topics :wink:

And when you read him you don't have to agree with him. Existentialism doesn't necessarily impose atheism. So you can live free AND go to heaven, now tell me something more optimistic

 

[Forkbender]

I'm willing to give it a try, but I refuse to agree with someone who didn't like mescaline.

 

[cockknocker]

I haven't read the whole post, and I don't know you other than from what I've read of your posts, so I don't have all the information regarding this subject.

I don't know if you have or not, but I think you should probably stop using drugs because if you're going through a hard time in your life, using drugs might make it worse. I know some people here might say that using psychedelics is safe and a great way of helping you through mentally difficult times, but if you're feeling suicidal I think the last thing you want to be doing is escaping reality by usings psychs.

To what Restin and Fork said, I don't think reading philiosophical books is really going to help him at all, because it sounds, from what I've read, that the last thing Ahuax wants is to sit down and read. I may be wrong, but there we go.

I agree with what God said about waking up and actively taking responsability. I think that you can only get better if you actively work towards that goal, because I get the impression, again I may be wrong, that you are just sitting there waiting for someone to come and make you better, and that if nobody does then you'll just take the shortest route out by killing yourself.

Only you know what your problems are and how to solve them, and I don't think you'll find a solution by looking towards psychiatrists or philosophical books.

But in the end, its up to you to help yourself, and none of us are going to be able to say something that magically makes you better.

I'm finding it hard to formulate what I want to say. Life is sacred and cutting short would be a waste. If everyone just gave up when things got rough then what sort of world would we live in? If and when you get through this period, I think you'll look back and think "yeah, that was quite a horrible time for me, but I got through it, and I'm better because of it." It sounds cliched but thats just what I think.

Good luck .


@ Restin - surely if your an athiest, you wont believe in heaven? Doesn't make much sense to me

 

[restin]

I'm willing to give it a try, but I refuse to agree with someone who didn't like mescaline.

Uh, did he try mescaline? Fork, you said you were not a determinist, but the existentialism is the only serious philosophy that consenquently erases determinism in a reasonable sense. Why don't you like it?

cockknocker, you didn't understand. What I said is, existentialism can be atheistic and theistic. Sartre represented the atheistic existentialism, there are other philosophers who do not...it is, in the end, your personal choice.

PS: FFS my post wasn't at all an appeal to sit down at read books I was referring to st.bots post.

 

[st.bot.32]

Life is sacred and cutting short would be a waste. If everyone just gave up when things got rough then what sort of world would we live in?

Exactly, the world needs more good guys, not less! Also once you've gotten through that rough phase you can turn around and use what you've learned to hopefully help others. It's win/win!

 

[st.bot.32]

What I said is, existentialism can be atheistic and theistic. Sartre represented the atheistic existentialism, there are other philosophers who do not...it is, in the end, your personal choice.

Actually the only Sartre I've read is the humanist essay you refer to, so I can't speak from Fork's perspective. But that essay is anything but depressing IMO.

It's a nice, fairly rational description of why atheists can indeed care about their fellow humans without needing belief in some kind of deity or dangling carrot/afterlife. It's been a long time since I read it, but I recall it reminded me a lot of the mid-20th century rationalistic and humanistic perspective that I saw in classic sci-fi/ science non-fiction from that period.

(Also it's very easy to confuse what atheism is when you look at this period in history.. I can't speak for Sartre because it's been too long, but when you look at a lot of atheists in that period, they were clearly still spiritual people. But simply not believing in the judeo-christian god was enough to have you labeled an atheist.)

 

[Forkbender]

I'm willing to give it a try, but I refuse to agree with someone who didn't like mescaline.

Uh, did he try mescaline? Fork, you said you were not a determinist, but the existentialism is the only serious philosophy that consenquently erases determinism in a reasonable sense. Why don't you like it?

Yeah, he tried mescaline, but didn't really like it. It's not so much that I don't like existentialism, though, it is just that I prefer other philosophies. Existentialism is too anthropocentric for my taste. I also don't like the - in my view - unhealthy psychology it regards as the standard.

[e]@cocknocker
I agree reading books isn't the solution. Being open to different ideas is the solution. You don't get that from reading books.

 

[restin]

Didn't know about the mescaline :wink: What philosophies do you prefer?

Hmm, unhealthy psychology? From what I understood, it doesn't regard any psychology on humans at all --> The existence precedes the essence, which says that humans are not predetermined to any kind of psychological bounds. Man is literally free to chose and create himself. Or how dod you understand that?

(I split the topics.)

EDIT: shit. I didn't want to transfer cockknockers post :?

 

[Forkbender]

I prefer Taoist philosophy.

What I mean with unhealthy psychology is the focus on meaninglessness, anxiety, etc. Besides, it may be appealing to see man as literally free to choose and create himself, but it isn´t factual.

I must admit that I haven´t explored Existentialism fully and that I may be prejudiced about Sartre because of reading Heidegger and Foucault, but from the impression I got from it, it didn´t invite me to continue exploring. I´m willing to give it another go, though, as I had a break from reading too much philosophy.

EDIT: Good thing to split the thread.

 

[Bastiaan]

Life is sacred and cutting short would be a waste. If everyone just gave up when things got rough then what sort of world would we live in?

Don't say these kinds of things please
You are tresspassing here
You haven't the slightest idea what you are talking about..
(I assume you are refering to suicide here)

 

[restin]

Eastern philosophy...it is so different from western...on the other hand, it is actually very near to it. The largest difference, so I have the feeling, is how it is applied...Europeans are thinking about what they can grab while Eastern people think about what they cannot grab...maybe. But my knowledge is limited there, I read the Tao-book by Alan Watts and tried Laotse and read some Zen...how are they called...zen flesh zen bone stuff. I found it pretty inspiring but if you limit yourself to read instead of diving, you (=I) will soon get bored....and some zen stuff is reeeeally weird :wink:

But I still want to know it better.

Well, when you leave the protecting hand of God you will finally feel anxiety and meaninglessness. What you do by cutting the bound with him is cutting your roots. While in a religious community (as it was before) your determination is clear, it isn't so with atheism. It is therefore, I think, understandable that someone will center his thoughts on these "negative" things. In the end, you must ask yourself, why you don't kill yourself (and all the others around you).

Sounds funny hearing someone talk about facts who follows the banner of Tao The philosophical fight between "freedom" and "chains" of society, nature, emotions etc. etc. is indeed very old and still going on. We can barely resolve this issue, best is to keep it in mind....I myself am (too) often confronted with my own complexes, emotions, wantings etc. but I do believe that everyone of us has the ability to change. Maybe someone who believes in change is also the one who will be able to?

I don't intend to force you to read Sartre Well, it is one of the largest modern philosophical movements so it is interesting to know it, I think. I didn't read Foucault yet...