Shrooms to be banned in the Netherlands

[Guest]

uh-oh he said the n-word...

Hahaha, lol

The word nazi seems to have a heavy load.
But I think Heartcore is right, the Nazi's probably also didn't know that the rest of the world thought they were wrong or that they were doing injustice, but they were enforcing it nonetheless, so how is this different from the whole extremist christian ideas that are extensively laid upon the people of this country.

 

[Forkbender]

I do agree that nazism has shown how people behaving like sheep can turn out in disastrous crimes. But reasoning along that line it is inconsequential what the ideology is that makes people behave like sheep. It is rather the fear in the face of insecurity that makes people submit their freedom to a higher goal. It is regarding others as more dangerous than yourself, and willing to trust an agreed upon party (government) to make sure that others behave. I do not blame religion (which is pretty much a fearfull pseudo-mysticism) or ideology for the wrongs committed by their followers. I cannot blame the followers "for they know not what they do". I will not blame anybody, because I trust that if people knew everything they would not do wrong, and I will not blame anybody for not knowing the truth.

 

[endlessness]

Perhaps someday they may realize that
Their arguments are contained in this book:

ahmmm...

"When the dew settled on the camp at night, the manna also came down."

"That evening quail came and covered the camp, and in the morning there was a layer of dew around the camp. When the dew was gone, thin flakes like frost on the ground appeared on the desert floor. When the Israelites saw it, they said to each other, "What is it?" For they did not know what it was.
Moses said to them, "It is the bread the LORD has given you to eat. This is what the LORD has commanded: 'Each one is to gather as much as he needs. Take an omer [a] for each person you have in your tent.' "

Then Moses said to them, "No one is to keep any of it until morning."

" However, some of them paid no attention to Moses; they kept part of it until morning, but it was full of maggots and began to smell. So Moses was angry with them.

Each morning everyone gathered as much as he needed, and when the sun grew hot, it melted away."

Sounds like the bible says otherwise

 

[Guest]

I do not blame religion (which is pretty much a fearfull pseudo-mysticism) or ideology for the wrongs committed by their followers. I cannot blame the followers "for they know not what they do". I will not blame anybody, because I trust that if people knew everything they would not do wrong, and I will not blame anybody for not knowing the truth.

I totally agree

 

[Neuromancer]

That's sad. Damn it.

 

[Brugmansia]

I cannot blame the followers "for they know not what they do". I will not blame anybody, because I trust that if people knew everything they would not do wrong, and I will not blame anybody for not knowing the truth.

Not knowing the truth is in this case tied with oppression based on non-educated fundaments. And you do not blame ignorance?

I don't know what's it with you Fork. You seem to be a bit laconic in discussions and too neutral. Don't get me wrong, since I don't know you at all. But in a situation like this, a psychonaut has at least to right to be quite critical and make statements to defend his own existance.

Unfortunately we don't get anything in return if we act with a moderated ego. This merely works amoung us.

CDA is the party of the Big Money, just like the Republicans in the States. Christanity + consumption and materalism is however, something to be very aware of.

Not blaming and neither disagree often leads to the assumption that you agree with the taken descision. Especially by those who have the might.

 

[Forkbender]

Not knowing the truth is in this case tied with oppression based on non-educated fundaments. And you do not blame ignorance?

It is easy to blame someone for not understanding a truth that seems self-evident to you, but I think that this blaming points to an inability to step inside the shoes of another. And I add that the oppression that is experienced here and there is quite minimal. Mushrooms will continue to exist and continue to be used. Look at the many people on this forum in the US or in France, who use mushrooms despite the laws of their respective countries.

I don't know what's it with you Fork. You seem to be a bit laconic in discussions and too neutral. Don't get me wrong, since I don't know you at all. But in a situation like this, a psychonaut has at least the right to be quite critical and make statements to defend his own existance.

A critique is something that should be eloquent and in accordance with reality, not something along the line of "These stupid Christians are forbidding my high" - not quoting anyone in particular. One can only be critical in a constructive way by accepting the other's position and show where his convictions are in contradiction with his acts, easing the other person in on his own dark side, his blind spots. Why should one judge another if this other is judging us? It only puts more pressure on an already tense relation. You cannot overcome the I'm right / You're wrong disposition by picking sides and strengthening the difference between the two. This will only make you more alike the one you attack.

Unfortunately we don't get anything in return if we act with a moderated ego. This merely works amoung us.

CDA is the party of the Big Money, just like the Republicans in the States. Christanity + consumption and materalism is however, something to be very aware of.

Not blaming and neither disagree often leads to the assumption that you agree with the taken descision. Especially by those who have the might.

I'm against this prohibition for many reasons, and I've voiced them in other places. But I don't think there is a single ideology or faith that can be blamed for this prohibition. There is no 'enemy', there is just people that think they are doing the right thing, while in fact make certain experiences more inaccessible and more dangerous, thereby outlawing this experience as a whole. I'm sure they have good intentions, but I don't agree with their method.

Neutrality is not my position. I am thoroughly convinced that people should have easy access to mushrooms in general, although they also should educate themselves about the effects before they try them. I am in fact convinced that our style of life, our technique of getting to know ourselves is just and right, but I do not find in this the ground for blaming or judging others who don't agree with me. Again: you will become that which you are fighting the hardest. You cannot oppose antagonism in a coherent fashion.

I'm aware that this is precisely the thing that can be held against me, that I am the one opposing antagonism, but I do not think in terms of us and them or I as opposed to some of you who think that we should oppose religion. I am simply asserting my thoughts, just telling what comes to mind when reading what is written here. I try not to judge anybody, because that is not in my nature. However, I do tend to show people their blind spots, the spots that they don't want to recognize in themselves. And I am doing that with religious people just as much as with others, as I don't think there is a clear distinction between the two. I expect others to show me my blind spots as well, because undoubtedly I have them. But I don't think this works in a debate about something external, like religion.

So, then, what is the tactic I think is best? I am a believer in persuasion, in showing self-evident truths through words and signs in such a way that others will slowly but surely recognize. Communicate wisdom to others and sooner or later they will start to listen. And hopefully you will start listening yourself as well. Practice what you preach.

 

[buffachino]

Amen Fork, Amen.

 

[Razor29]

Every time i see the announcement i found my self more puzzled and more pissed

i mean on what basis are they banning the substance in the last year 100 did u get this 100 people in A'dam went to the hospital cus of shrooms what they don't mention is 90 where False alarms and that 9 where not cus of the shrooms


let us check how much jack Daniels alone killed in 07! im betting its more then between 0 and 1 i bet its much much much more

 

[adoma]

OK what is discussion actually going about !?
Because if can read this (from the government website).

De ministerraad heeft ermee ingestemd dat Algemene maatregel van bestuur wordt voorgelegd aan de Eerste en Tweede Kamer (voorhangprocedure) en voor advies aan de Raad van State wordt gezonden.

IT only says that our Ministers have agreed to ban them.
OUR second chamber should then first should debate and agree with it and even then our first chamber should then approve it!

We're just being fucked up by the media just as last time!

Besides this, it's not just the Christians who have something against the drugs,it's ALL the RIGHTWINGED PARTIES!
VVD, Party for "liberty", Christen Union and SGP.
2 biggest parties: CDA and PvdA are corrupt and just go with the flow in order to maintain a working ministries and therefore maintain their popularity in the second chamber!

Thank god, this stupid proposal has to pass the first chamber as last, were the Leftwinged parties rule and there are no real coalitions.

 

[st.bot.32]

Not knowing the truth is in this case tied with oppression based on non-educated fundaments. And you do not blame ignorance?

It is easy to blame someone for not understanding a truth that seems self-evident to you, but I think that this blaming points to an inability to step inside the shoes of another. And I add that the oppression that is experienced here and there is quite minimal. Mushrooms will continue to exist and continue to be used. Look at the many people on this forum in the US or in France, who use mushrooms despite the laws of their respective countries.

As a person who about 10 years ago would have sided with the Christian conservatives, I can honestly say what won me over was that the majority of "drug" users I met were normal productive members of society, and it didn't take me long to figure out I had been lied to, and in turn become curious myself.

At the same time, having abandoned my previous path, I have little patience for those who blindly follow whatever they are told without questioning it. It isn't just a matter of fear and ignorance but a matter of arrogance. Putting down others makes you feel good about yourself, because you are doing the "right thing" and they are not, and you will hear these kinds of mocking comments all the time. Hanging out with conservatives, their reaction to say drugs is not much different than their reaction to science and evolution, knee-jerk, ill-informed, full of mockery and the clincher for me: absolutely no curiosity or desire to actually learn anything about the subject they are critical of, as they are already self-appointed "experts".

So I think for psychedelic users, the best thing we can do is continue to be kind, moderate, peaceful, set an example, peaceful protests. Make the violent reactionary who would destroy someone's life for just smoking a joint look like the violent and angry person he/she is.. by example. Eventually hopefully more and more people will clue in that they were misinformed and lied to.

 

[Guest]

Last week i thought i'd really lost my zen,
but i really need to air some things, because there's a lot of frustration piled up and i didn't let myself feel those things "because it wasn't zen" or something like that.
MAN was i pissed off, about mushrooms becomming illegal, the world being run by greedy basterds.
I just need to blow of steam and see it all for what it is, because my hart needs to chill out.
Thanks Fork and St.Bot for these wise words

 

[ZOF]

Goddamnit


Politics and Church can not work together, they shouldn't!

fuck...


shit..


I hate those stupid christians.....


Serieus, waar bemoeien ze zich mee. De hele mentaliteit van het oorspronkelijke nederland valt in het water, door die vreselijke religie.
Nou jongens, de illegaliteit maar in dan.

 

[st.bot.32]

Last week i thought i'd really lost my zen,
but i really need to air some things, because there's a lot of frustration piled up and i didn't let myself feel those things "because it wasn't zen" or something like that.
MAN was i pissed off, about mushrooms becomming illegal, the world being run by greedy basterds.
I just need to blow of steam and see it all for what it is, because my hart needs to chill out.
Thanks Fork and St.Bot for these wise words

Yeah understandable, when I first read these kinds of news articles I'm not sure whether I get incredibly angry or a part of me withers from despair.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I am a believer in persuasion, in showing self-evident truths through words and signs in such a way that others will slowly but surely recognize.

Yes, I also think that's the way to go.

 

[tryptonaut]

If that news is entirely true, then the Netherlands have an almost stricter law on shrooms than Germany - that is some really bad news... German law so far allowed the import of fresh shrooms from the Netherlands because they were legal in the Netherlands (and therefore couldn't be illegal in Germany because both countries are EU and one can't make a product illegal that the other sells freely as a food product, something like that).

When the press become a choir singing exactly the same song it proves that the press is not free and that the people behind it have made desisions that the people have to be manipulated with christian ? / fashist / nazi propoganda.

It doesn't mean the press is not free in an "1984" Orwellian sense, it only means they are not free to really investigate and research because they don't have the time to do so. I know how it works in an editorial office of a tv station - the editors read the papers, then someone says "hey, paper XY has this news on how dangerous shrooms are, we gotta make something of that, too!" Then one of the editors, favorably one who has absolutely no knowledge about drugs, is assigned to make a 1 to 1:30 minutes piece about the dangers of shrooms - favorably a very lurid piece so that people will watch it and not zap to another channel. The time to complete the piece is at max. 6 hours including research, interview(s), getting enough footage, and editing. 6 hours might sound mighty fine to research, but you mustn't underestimate how much time it takes to shoot interviews and footage and then edit the whole thing - 6 hours is almost not enough to do that part right.
As you can imagine, the research that goes into some "news" like that is 1. repeating what the newspaper article said and 2. repeating what the obvious expert says (which is where the newspaper article came from in the first place).

A few months ago two teenagers in my town nearly killed themselves by drinking too much GHB after consumption of alcohol. All the media reported that they had almost killed themselves with "ecstasy in liquid form". That information came from the press people of the public health department, because they themselves didn't know the difference between GHB (gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid) with the misleading street name "liquid ecstasy" and real ecstasy (3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine or mdma) - the latter of which never occurs in liquid form (at least I never heard of it).
You can't really blame the editor of repeating such mis-information because they probably don't know shit about drugs and have to finish that piece in a matter of a few hours (for tv - for radio make it half an hour to slightly re-phrase the official press statement)

What I wanna say is that, no, there is not some fascist conspiration behind the media, but the effects are just the same. Every station only works for the highest quota, everyone wants to be faster than the others, but every executive tries to minimize costs - so there's always less people than would be necessary to make news in less time than would be necessary in a more lurid fashion than what it actually is.

There is news agencies out there who advertise that they will always be 10 seconds faster than Reuters. Nobody cares if they hire underpaid students to make the impossible happen - 10 seconds faster is their claim, you can imagine how that affects the quality of news... it's all going down in a spiral towards news-hell...

 

[magickmumu]

this is so bad. it makes me angry and depressed. Angry at the goverment, but even more angry at Amsterdam and it's tourist. The whole problem started in Amsterdam. I hate those shops selling mushrooms to under aged just to make money. In most shops there are people selling mushrooms, who never even tried them themselves.
I hate tourists trashing around Amsterdam with there heads full of mushrooms.

Sorry but im a bitt angry at the moment.

 

[HeartCore]

What I wanna say is that, no, there is not some fascist conspiration behind the media, but the effects are just the same.

So where do all the danger mushroom stories come from? And why is it that most people in the Netherlands who haven't got a clue really, think that there are many many many fires caused by illegal cannabis growers? And where does the believe come from among any people, that almost all cannabis growers steal power (causing neighbours having to pay double or tripple) when statistics show that

1) People growing in living quarters in general DON't steal power (because the risk of getting caught is just so much higher when you do that.

2) When statistics show that in general, there is no theft of power by cannabis growers, how do the stories about fires caused by illegally tapped power lines come from?

Not all stories are part of a scam/conspiracy but you can bet your ass, a lot of them are. You can't really dismiss that entirely by one example of some retard who wants to score a story but doesn't realize there is a difference between xtc and ghb.

I don't trust any of the media actually without being overly paranoid. Why is is, that in this time when mushrooms are made illegal and these christian fucktards are on a crusade to make cannabis illegal as well, the tv station Veronica is headhunting youngsters for a career as a police officer? We are headed towards a dictatorship and nothing short of it. These christian politics are of the same fucked up logic as Islam politics. The latter basially states that Islam is a religion of peace. Peace will be manifest when the hole world has become muslim. Christians suffer the same arrogancy, megalomania in my opinion and they use every means they have to push that message of fear and hate and disrespect through everybody's troat. and if they cannot win you over by words, they will just make YOU lifestyle/religion/believe CRIMINAL so they can lock you up.

No conspiracy my ass....it's been going on for so long, that a lot of us don't (want to) recognize it as such.

Why is blasphemy still prohibited by law? Isn't prohibiting ME my sacrament a form of blasphemy as well? Who are they to judge where my and your enlightenment comes from?

There are, btw, interesting links between the CDA and RTL4, not sure if you are aware of it.

 

[ZOF]

There are, btw, interesting links between the CDA and RTL4, not sure if you are aware of it.

Zeitgeist'ish

 

[Guest]

There are, btw, interesting links between the CDA and RTL4, not sure if you are aware of it.

Please elaborate...