Horrible problem(s)

[Vlad]

Look, i believe that you had a kind of vision, that made you think that you looked through your eyelids... But in fact you probably didn't really looked through them.
don't you think that your brain is able to remember what the room for instance looks like before you closed your eyes? I wouldn't pull too hard on it, if i were you..

I know what you're saying but it's more complex, it's like seein with eyes open, move your head/eyes, everything moves and everything looks real as normal, nothing visionary about it.

Btw I had my first lucid dream too on the night of the second time it happened.

Like OBE's, i never believe that your soul really went out of your body, it's just a vision that your brain produces...

I think OBEs are real. When I studied the topic to some extent I came across a lot of conclusive conjecture/'proof'. What do you do with people who can describe things in other rooms they've never been in and such. I think these things happened.

I think I also may have had a conscious spontaneous OBE that allowed my astral body to see. Also explains the sight.

Yeah I'm Ravok

 

[Shamanita]

I can't see any reason possibility to see with your eyes closed... Or that your soul can see things, apart from the body, as the soul is, imo, just some complex computerlike thing inside the brain, it has no eyes, so it can't see, imo.
You can make yourself see/here/smell/feel wathever you wan't, if you really believe in it... It's like some people who claim to have seen Maria (the so called mother of jezus), They just believe really hard that she exist, and so they can see her... But that is not a prove at all that maria really exist nowadays... It's merely a prove for the fact that you can make yourself believe whatever you wan't to believe, imo.

 

[maxfreakout]

max you dont have schizophrenia so how could you possibly think entheogens are anything like it?!

i had a psychotic episode a few years ago which i can remember very clearly, it isnt exactly the same as tripping, but it is the same in some fundamental ways

schizophrenia is like a drug, you cant know what its like until you've had it

absolutely

i think the field of psychiatry has a vast knowledge of the mind yet in comparison to what it could know its only just begun, its like medicine in the dark ages, it worked to a certain extent

up until very recently, the dominant psychiatric paradigm completely denied that minds even exist (the behaviourist paradigm) in direct opposition to basic common sense. They dont think that way now, but they are still almost completely clueless about the mind. And the reason for that is because psychiatrists have never been schizophrenic themselves. It's like a medical doctor trying to understand influenza without ever looking at it under a microscope

 

[Shamanita]

up until very recently, the dominant psychiatric paradigm completely denied that minds even exist (the behaviourist paradigm) in direct opposition to basic common sense. They dont think that way now, but they are still almost completely clueless about the mind. And the reason for that is because psychiatrists have never been schizophrenic themselves. It's like a medical doctor trying to understand influenza without ever looking at it under a microscope

A friend of mine has some kind of psychotic/schizofrenia too. He now studies psychology at university. I believe that he would really be a very good psychologist, he can understand more what's going on in the mind of some one who has schizofrenia

 

[Forkbender]

up until very recently, the dominant psychiatric paradigm completely denied that minds even exist (the behaviourist paradigm) in direct opposition to basic common sense. They dont think that way now, but they are still almost completely clueless about the mind. And the reason for that is because psychiatrists have never been schizophrenic themselves. It's like a medical doctor trying to understand influenza without ever looking at it under a microscope

So psychiatrists are clueless about the mind because they never had schizoid episodes, while medical doctors can understand influenza by looking at it through a microscope?

I think there is faulty reasoning in there somewhere. I don't think influenza is properly understood by most doctors (they are treating symptoms) and I don't think that we need to look through a microscope to understand it but need to look to the humans that experience influenza in a way that is more holistic than is done generally in medicine. Furthermore, I do think that a sane person can understand an insane person. Not on a logical level, but on an emotional level. The way most psychiatrists work is not by trying to understand every detail of the inner workings of their patients, but by helping them find ways to deal with their reported problems. An understanding of the mind helps in this, but what is essential is knowledge of human emotions (which I think are universal).

 

[maxfreakout]

So psychiatrists are clueless about the mind because they never had schizoid episodes, while medical doctors can understand influenza by looking at it through a microscope?

yes exactly, having a schizoid episode, is much like having an opportunity to look at your own mind (whereas normally the mind is invisible) and the same applies to taking psychedelic drugs (in fact that is the precise meaning of the word 'psychedelic' - to make the mind become visible). Psychiatrists are clueless because they have never actually seen a mind, they have only read theories about the mind

I don't think influenza is properly understood by most doctors (they are treating symptoms)

yes i suppose influenza is a bad example because it is uncurable, although that's why i said 'understand' influenza rather than 'treat' or 'cure' influenza

and I don't think that we need to look through a microscope to understand it but need to look to the humans that experience influenza in a way that is more holistic than is done generally in medicine.

but influenza is caused by the interaction of this tiny virus with the human body, so surely to understand how it works you need to understand it on the microsopic level?

Furthermore, I do think that a sane person can understand an insane person. Not on a logical level, but on an emotional level.

hmmm that is highly debatable. If by 'understand an insane person' you mean 'understand what it's like to be insane' then i disagree, i dont think 'being insane' is about having a certain style of emotion, rather insanity is a radically different mode of consciousness from sanity. A sane person trying to understand an insane person is like a person who never took drugs trying to understand what an LSD trip is like (ie impossible)

The way most psychiatrists work is not by trying to understand every detail of the inner workings of their patients, but by helping them find ways to deal with their reported problems.

That isnt what psychiatrists do! Maybe psychotherapists but not psychiatrists.

Psychiatrists interview patients, make a psychiatric diagnosis, then prescribe drugs based on the diagnosis.

 

[Forkbender]

hmmm that is highly debatable. If by 'understand an insane person' you mean 'understand what it's like to be insane' then i disagree, i dont think 'being insane' is about having a certain style of emotion, rather insanity is a radically different mode of consciousness from sanity. A sane person trying to understand an insane person is like a person who never took drugs trying to understand what an LSD trip is like (ie impossible)

I don't think being insane is having a certain style of emotion either, that is why a sane person can connect with an insane person, but it is far more connected to how one deals with their emotions than it is to the ideas they have in their mind. The emotions are the basis upon which the ideas manifest.

There is only 1 mode of consciousness, what this is conscious of can change and vary. The way people twist their consciousness is what makes them insane, it is not the consciousness that changes, just the things they put into it, which in turn is related again to emotions, attitude, nutrition, thoughts about the self, etc.

I'm saying the easiest way for a person who is not insane to reach a person who is insane is through the emotions, because of our ability to empathize. We can reason on and on, but as long as we don't agree, we cannot see the world from the other persons' point of view. Understanding arises if we connect through empathy.

I think I am not close to psychiatry anymore, and I am describing an idealtypical situation, but that is how I see it.

About the influenza: some people who get the virus don't get sick, so there is more to it than just plain microscopic workings of the virus on the human body. To understand influenza, you need to understand disease and to understand that, you need to understand health. Health isn't studied much in our world, we tend to focus on the negative, which is probably why we are so sick.

 

[Vlad]

Risperdone (active constituent in Risperdal) and haliperidol (idem in Haldol) both contain fluorine in their molecule.
It is well known fluoride is a neurotoxin. Plenty of information on the net about it and plenty of anti fluoridation info to be found. The nazis used it to sedate.
What happens to the fluoride in the molecules when risperidone/haliperidol break down in the body? What breakdown products are formed, how does the breakdown happen, how does it react in the body? It certainly won't be harmless. These facts are what makes psychiatrists criminals for injecting fluoridated compounds into the body that go to the brain.

 

[IJesusChrist]

LOL VLAD. You keep going down this path and you're going to be a paranoid schizophrenic in no time.

F-Pills are simply there so they break down at certain parts of the body, the RIGHT parts. Instead of just getting eaten by the stomach acid and being metabolized in the wrong area, they get metabolized in the correct area and leave their conjegate acid in the brain, and the flourine goes elsewhere... Flourine is in the water you drink also... its also in toothpaste at much higher levels.
Small amounts of flourine aren't bad at all, and in the case of water are actually "health" for you.

Please..... stop worrying about brain damage, you did DMT and it took you by surprise, your brain is confused as to what happened, its going to take time to sort it out, and maybe it wont get sorted out thouroghly but don't make it any worse by believe your being poisened.

YOU'RE FINE. Take comfort.

 

[maxfreakout]

Small amounts of flourine aren't bad at all, and in the case of water are actually "health" for you.

:roll:


that's exactly what the lizards WANT you to think :roll:


fluorine is very very very poisonous

 

[Forkbender]

Vlad, consider a detox diet for a few weeks, I'm sure it will help you get rid of the toxins and some toxic emotions at the same time. If you have questions, ask.

 

[Affirmatory]

If you are worried about fluoride drink bottled water, get a non-fluoride tootpaste.


Ijesuschrist: Small amounts of fluoride are not bad for you, but if you look at the water fluoridation situation you will see it is very easy to exceed the 'safe' level and there is no way to regulate your dose. There are many people who show toxic levels of fluoride all apparently for the benefit of some people who don't brush their teeth. Please do some research. Even if fluoride is healthy, (which I don't think it is) most people have too much of it.

The local school here tells the children to swallow the toothpaste after brushing.

 

[Shamanita]

If you are worried about fluoride drink bottled water, get a non-fluoride tootpaste.

.

Not in every country they add fluoride in the water. In the USA they add fluoride to tapwater, but not here in Belgium...It's also not very helpful to add fluoride in water..
Cause the F- needs contact with your teeth for a metathese-reaction in which the calciumhydroxyapahtite gets substituted to fluori-apathite by the F- ion.
Fluori-apathite is less soluble then Calciumhyrdoxy-apathite, so prevents rotting teeth..

Small amounts of fluoride aren't that harmfull, or else they would have forbidden to use it. But if you eat a whole tube of toothpaste, yehah, that could be harmfull...

 

[Vlad]

F-Pills are simply there so they break down at certain parts of the body, the RIGHT parts. Instead of just getting eaten by the stomach acid and being metabolized in the wrong area, they get metabolized in the correct area and leave their conjegate acid in the brain, and the flourine goes elsewhere...

Oh yes? How about some proof for that unfounded claim.
What if the risperidone/haliperidol molecules break down in the brain and generate toxic breakdown products in the brain?
You realize this is what happens in the body with aspartame too? It causes toxic breakdown products yet aspartame is considered 'safe' for food use. Same story could be the case with these neuroleptics.

 

[time2poop]

There is intelligence behind it.

maybe you're too conscious of the unconscious machinations in waking life? when taking a decision the mind evaluates lots of possible outcomes and processes lots of information. we are not normally aware of it all but it certainly happens. maybe you're eavesdropping this inner calculating dialogue and getting tangled in it?

that's the same thing i'm thinking. also keep in mind he's well versed in computer science, you can tell by the way he writes and makes inquiries that he looks at everything from an 'engineering' or highly logical point of view. it sounds to me like he's conscious of all these unconscious tasks. i'm no expert, just a brainstormer, quite some time ago in a biology class i wrote a paper on the central nervous system and basically the tasks that your brain makes decisions on like your heart beat, etc, versus tasks that your consciousness must make a decision. it sounds to me like he's aware of these unconscious tasks, as you stated, and his brain is making manifestations based on his logical point of view (the way he's trained himself to think, probably for several years) to try to allow him to comprehend it. as to why his default is to deny himself pleasure, as that would be against that the beings want him to know, who knows what's really underneath that manifestation.

i bet there is indeed a highly logical explanation for this but it would take an expert of many fields, not a psychiatrist, to answer it. but it sounds like some part of your mind is being overly-analytical of these processes which you are not supposed to be aware of and being projected into your consciousness in the form of what you describe on the first page. sometimes you can get in a little too deep with analyzing how the mind works

 

[spice]

.....sounds to me like he needs to stay away from DMT.

 

[time2poop]

.....sounds to me like he needs to stay away from DMT.

yeah, maybe this is what a severe case of HPPD from DMT is like. i hate to toss that around because HPPD is another one of those cases where we put a label onto something we really know next-to-nothing about, but it satisfies that human need to have a label on everything. the label is really just an intermediate until we really figure out what it's about, then it's replaced with more correct terminology.

the reply he made about "self preservation" by Vlad, saying that's the point of these projections and the reply by Spice regarding a "weakened ego" go hand in hand. i'm no expert, i have no degree in this field, i've had some nasty HPPD several years ago that have since bounced back from and am speaking merely from what makes sense based upon my own experiences which were nothing like what he has i must say. also listen to how Vlad talks, pages and pages of analytical questions that are all geared 100% toward believing his DMT-induced HPPD. re-read what IJesusChrist is saying, he is making a LOT of sense here. it will not go away because Vlad's still analyzing the hell out of this and it will continue until he finds a suitable answer he can use to 'fill in the gaps' to end the self-analysis. i think staying away from psychedelics is a wise decision as well, i think you've gone a bit too deep in your self-exploration and are now tangled in a web of experiences that are far beyond what modern neuroscience can explain at the moment. so you're filling in your own gaps with DMT-induced ideals. just like ancient mankind, when it rained/etc/things happened that we couldn't explain, we adapted our own explanations (for which there was no physical proof) that "the Gods" made it happen, this went even further with human sacrifices/etc in some cases. now technology has progressed and we can explain such events from a physics standpoint. that's where we are with psychedelics now, we are going further than modern science can explain so you must draw a line to save your own sanity and save from 'making things up to connect the dots'. perhaps in 50 years this will be a different story and we will be able to truly understand all the inner-workings of our minds. but until then it's more like you're sacrificing animals in a volcano so that the Gods can bring you water for your vegetables.

Vlad said he "felt normal" on shrooms, that's because his ego was dissolved, like putting tape over it's mouth. when he came down and was sober again (and the ego was no longer being suppressed), they were back. also in regards to the "medicine" he was given making it worse, that could make a lot of sense. do some reading on antipsychotics and their effect on the ego.

you know how you can believe your own lies if it goes on long enough? you chased this too deeply and continued to do so while you were sober, i understand that and have chased psychedelics in the past, the need or want to do this may be with it's role on 5ht receptors that makes it seem like something you want to do. to crawl out of it you must make a choice and follow it, if it goes against what 'feels right' then it's kind of like trying to force yourself to believe a lie, but you must make a decision based on a voice of reason, a voice of logic. only after leading that type of life long enough will you start to finally 'believe' and truly 'want' to do the logical thing. it's mental conditioning and that's how you control your mind and has to do with strong willpower. it's listening to the voice of reason regardless of what emotions tell you. only you can control you.

there's a lot of excellent advice in this thread coming from all angles. i think in the end we're saying, trust science and try to get back to normal life as much as possible, stop chasing these things and in time after enough life experiences you'll start participating on what's happening outside of your mind instead of what's in it. in the end it doesn't matter how you feel or what you think, it's what you DO that holds real weight in this life.

/end rant

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ok vlad, keep thinking you have brain damage, or wisen up buddy.

You're either going to spiral out of control in your paranoia or you're going to learn normally.
... Flourine is poisonous yeah. HOWEVERRRRRRRR
So is chlorine, can you imagine drinking HCl? Well every sleeping pill on the market is 'chemical'-HCl, all of them. Its so they dissolve easy in the stomach.

People also used to take flourine PILLS to strengthen teeth in the 20's,30's and 40's until they realized it was turning their teeth black (however their teeth were like steel).

Vlad. You don't have brain damage. This is maybe the 4th time I've said this. You're brain went on DMT when it was no where near ready and you got fucked up from it, and your brain is recouperating. It will take up to 2 years for you to basically be completely back to normal if minimal conciousness-alterers are used in between.

Just stop tripping yourself out bro.

AND, Time2poop - excellent advice, couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Vlad]

I still occasionally have 'tics' or things like forced laughing sensations from the Risperdal, so cut the crap saying it doesn't give brain damage. It is WELL KNOWN these medicines cause tics and mess with things poorly understood.

 

[Vlad]

Vlad said he "felt normal" on shrooms, that's because his ego was dissolved, like putting tape over it's mouth. when he came down and was sober again (and the ego was no longer being suppressed), they were back. also in regards to the "medicine" he was given making it worse, that could make a lot of sense. do some reading on antipsychotics and their effect on the ego.

I kept seeing and getting communications and annoyances from these beings. They never went away not even on shrooms or ayahuasca. They laid low when I was under the influence. But they were still there.

These beings mess with willpower and all bodily sensations. When I didn't do what felt right, and chose to do what felt wrong, my willpower got totally messed up. You know how to tense up your muscles you use willpower in different kinds? Mental will to think about it, and a more physical kind of will to tense your muscle up. ALL these kinds of willpower ALL got messed up even if I even considered to not do what felt good. It made me a worthless piece of flesh unable to move almost. Yes physical will was there but it messed up my mental will completely if I didn't 'follow' the 'do right' feeling.

I notice you people want to give good advice but to be honest you don't know the hell I've been in, I've only mentioned here that I SAW these beings but barely touched on what they did because it's so difficult to explain.
When I said I saw them, it logically seems like they come from my own mind.
I'm thinking my mind showed me images of maybe beings or entities that attacked my being, not just physically.

For example. I typically, A LOT, almost all the time, felt a sensation like a tension of energy come over my body, and when I got it, it gave me the feeling that I HAD TO be silent, and not speak, and if I did, it felt terrible. It's easy to say to ignore it, but that's not possible in that state. It's the wrong thing to do. Then not only the feeling to shut up. But worse. That energy made me make more and faster than normal saliva. I constantly got impulses like nerve impulses to make saliva, forcefully, and swallow it. You realize swallowing saliva is something most of us do unconsciously? Well for me it became a conscious task, and these 'beings' were causing it, and taunted me with words/commands like 'swallow', and 'mmmm', and I tell you this subtle energy is like something that tickles nerves and IMPOSSIBLE to ignore. It doesn't even tickle nerves, it's like a tension/energy field over my mouth area and when it's on, my salivary glands production was in overdrive, I could not stop the forceful production, not that I salivated, but the forceful production until my glands/mouth were dry, and it is imposibble to stop this, and like I said this energy caused it and these beings are the cause of the energy.

One curious occurance happened to me too. One day I was on a bed in the psychiatric ward, and while dazing out I heard a song play on the radio, and I wasn't really listening but heard what it said.
The chorus went something like this:
"Why do you have all these tears, you can't hide your fears"

So while I listen I notice (barely) that that chorus repeats itself in my head.
So I listen (almost unconsciously) and hear it say... "why do you have all these fears".... "you can't hide"... and then all at once, in another tone, a dark demonic tone, it said "YOUR SOUL", and it scared the hell out of me mentally, but that's not just it. Together with that, in the center of my chest, the place where you feel 'in love' sensations, I felt a terrible feeling of fear, and I NEVER feel fear. I HAVEN'T FELT ANYTHING LIKE IT for maybe 10 to 20 YEARS. It was not a matter of the fact that hearing 'your soul' in that tone scared me, the feeling of fear was SIMULTANEOUS with the words YOUR SOUL. I didn't get afraid, I WAS MADE TO FEEL FEAR.

Something is not right with the view western people have on reality. There are beings probably that DMT hyperspace allows one to see in the mind, but these things are not just brain generated or mental. It's a big mistake in logical thinking to even ASSUME that. It should all be viewed from a neutral perspective as pure information without preemptive labeling of it as being hallucinations.