Anyone who DOESN'T see 'god' on his explorations?

[afer]

it seems that I got a little misunderstood.
in my exp., DIVINE was not associated with any known religion. it was the ultimate wisdom, the clearest power... I'd call it the essence of life.
I named it divine because that kind of power is often ascribed to GODS in religion...In my trip, however, there were no entities, supreme beings...no archetypes at all.
this happened only once, with the aid of 20 grams of M. hostilis

 

[Guest]

Thanks Silv, Fork, Buff, GOD and ofcourse Heartcore (and others I forgot)
rayer:

My thoughts exactly

 

[mutant]

Buffachino

you don't know me to call me confused, constraint or anything. I also didn't ask anyone to tell me what I need or how to find god. You need god so you have him, not me.

So either if you can't stay on-topic, at least don't patronise me, because being a 'rare specimen' makes me somewhat rude and caustic sometimes.

===

What do you think god is? I think the only reason you deny its existance is because you have somewhat of an image in your mind describing what it should be? A man or woman up there looking down on us?

'God' is a concept that is received / constructed / enforced in different ways by people - many 'gods' seem vastly different from others to such extent that you would think it's a totally another concept. In communities of common spiritual life, f.e. in psychedelic communities, where similar substances are catalysts for religious-like experiences, the typical notions of god are becoming more reoccuring which make this an even more interesting concept for me to observe & explore.

My denial of the concept of god is a personal one and it exeeds the monotheist opressive god-schemes. I deny god as a concept because I don't need such a concept - most people seem to need it though, and that interests me a lot.

And well.. It becomes more than just that when it begins to speak to you.

Does the dose play some role in that?

mutant, what kind of psychonaut are you if you are asking that question ?

obivously, not the kind you are used to I can concieve , maybe understand, and sometimes associate with some of these notions: the all-are-one, the one-ness in all, the connection beteewn all things, the universal intelligence, the planet as mother-birth giver, the ego as home for god, and god as everything - still you seem to wonder what I am I doing here, since you find my question weird.

many of us have given their true honest opinion, and, still, you remain behind that shield. for how long ?

I already said I appreciate the opinions I got and especially the fact that they're honest and coming from your hearts, so what should I do know, kneel and shout allelujah?

I am into psychophenomenology of the psychedelics and human behaviour and actually I am searching for every type of linking and connection - I am not really into some scientific scheme, science could never break the barriers of crude rationalism because science does not ingest psychedelics and has no imagination - moreover scinece doesn't really want to help man or really explain what's the score - science only waits for the next fundings to make even more worthless 'reasearch'

religion, pure and simple, free of Theology, free of dogmatics, expressing itself in awe and reverence and in lowered voices, mostly at night, when people would gather together to consult the Sacred Element

now that's a nice quote! the most ancient religion of them all. I admit I respect this form of 'religion' a lot more than anything else.

Now, God, you start it really well, and I like it because very few of you cared to answer to my comments on dosing and the heroic doses. Then on you threw in destiny, 'becoming the light' and so. Let me get this straight. Anyone who is already interested in searching for god and takes some good quantity [say 7 or 9 gr of P.cubensis] of psychedelics will eventually let loose of his ego and feel god? Doesn't this imply the belief in god's notion?

Is god something more than connection, infinity, awereness? [3 elements that Rymmen, self-called atheist psychonaut nicely said] Why do we need another word, that ultimately says nothing new?

DIVINE was not associated with any known religion. it was the ultimate wisdom, the clearest power... I'd call it the essence of life.
I named it divine because that kind of power is often ascribed to GODS in religion...In my trip, however, there were no entities, supreme beings...no archetypes at all.

See? So why do we need this word divine? it's pretty standard that it is something we attribute to some godly creature or world ...

==============

Any thoughts more than welcome.

 

[Guest]

Nobody said God was an entity of some kind...

so what should I do know, kneel and shout allelujah?

This is based on your assumption that God is somekind of supreme being or entity.

But I'll get back on the subject when I return home (still at my work)

BTW: I don't think if you have this wisdom you still can call yourself an atheist btw :mrgreen:

Nice discussion

 

[Jonasvannijnatten]

Hey mutant,
I see you have started an interesting discussion here. I can tell you that I am atheist and have never seen or experienced god. It amazes me too that so many people do talk about this religious stuff.
On the other side, on my trips I do have experienced the feeling of connectedness and the feeling of seeing the naked truth unbiassed by all you know. I do call it a spiritual experience, but by spiritual I don't mean anything like a higher being or power. I think that some people would describe such feelings as devine or like they experienced god. I wonder if you have had such experiences of feeling united with the universe, because since have had them, I very well understand that people use religious terms to describe the experience. So have you had such experiences, regardless of what terms you use for it or what meanings you link with it?
During a trip I can feel connected with everything that surrounds us and that is a very special feeling I very much like, and I can think of the fact that we are indeed all connected simply by the molecules and atom and that we are all made of these same basic units and so actually the whole universe is essentialy the same.
So I can have a fanastic experience and explain it by scientific knowledge, no gods needed, but still need some psycedelics to get that feeling for I don't get it when I'm sober.
Hope this helped you out a bit in understanding why people talk in this way about their trips.

 

[Stighar]

And well.. It becomes more than just that when it begins to speak to you.

Does the dose play some role in that?

Actually it has not much to do with the dose, more likely set and setting, however once you have learned recognizing "the voice of god" wich is nothing more than your own voice speaking to you in a clear moment, or "god" speaking to you through someone elses mouth, you will see it speaks to you also when you are not tripping.

But this is all in my experience and the way things seem to work for me. It works differently for everybody. It's all how you look at it.

My denial of the concept of god is a personal one and it exeeds the monotheist opressive god-schemes. I deny god as a concept because I don't need such a concept - most people seem to need it though, and that interests me a lot.

I need the concept just to give things a simple name when describing them, also amongst many psychonautics the term is well understood the way I mean it. That's why I need the concept.

 

[Guest]

Stighar, allow me to disagree with you. i think that beyond certain dosages, you have no choice than to see god.
heroic dosages differ from person to person, however! i have really (but REALLY) low tolerance to psilocybin and acid, and it takes me small amounts to have crazy visuals, and not much for full-blown, ego death. i have discovered this the hard way, that's why i always advise people to start with really small amounts. a heroic dosage for me is perhaps a small dosage for many users here, it is really relative. but the consequence of such is not relative at all..

 

[GOD]

It seems to me that you are the one that doesnt understand , and you keep showing that through what you say . You are the one that is playing musical chairs with their own definitions of words . You keep aplying your definitions of what you think people mean and then dissagreeing with them . You use your definitions to disqualifgy what you think people are saying acording to your definitions . Your uncertanty is obvious . Your self doubt is obvious . To say that science can explain everything only proves your ignorance of science . Science can not explain life , consciousness , why we are here or how its all possible . It cant even explain gravity . What we are saying is that there is more to the picture than meets the eye . Science goes so far and then it shits out . We are talking about the rest . God as a name for all the things that havent been explained , as an unidentifyed phenomenen that we have to look for , to define . By pealing the layers of the mystery one by one untill we get to the answer .

Your posts are full of anger and doubts . You show that you are looking for something that you havent found , that you are not satisfied with what you think you know . You show this because you dont answer anything , you just deny things .

"you don't know me to call me confused, constraint or anything. I also didn't ask anyone to tell me what I need or how to find god. You need god so you have him, not me.So either if you can't stay on-topic, at least don't patronise me, because being a 'rare specimen' makes me somewhat rude and caustic sometimes."

We can say that because we see what you say , we see what you dont know , we see the questions you ask , we see that you are not satisfied with your life or yourself . And you are the one who is patronising people here .

"which make this an even more interesting concept for me to observe & explore."

Do it then , step over your own shadow , look for it and stop denying it without looking at the posibilitys first . Maybe if you read the first 3 or 4 Carlos Casteneda books you will understand what we are trying to explain to you . You are acting like him , stumbling over your own definitions of something that you havent experienced .

" I already said I appreciate the opinions I got and especially the fact that they're honest and coming from your hearts, so what should I do know, kneel and shout allelujah?"

No , just stop standing in your own way . Stop talking and arguing with yourself and do it .

"very few of you cared to answer to my comments on dosing and the heroic doses"

Ask direct questions and you will get direct answers . Dose has nothing to do with if you will see or not . It has more of a relationship to how thick your defenses are . The dose doesnt make god , its the amount you need to make you stop fighting against yourself , to reach "ego death" so that you can see things without it , see things as they realy are .

" Let me get this straight."

Thats right , you havent got it straight , you are the one that doesnt understand . Thats why people keep asking you about your experience . You are trying to quantify and understand something in concrete terms , with your definitions . Something that can not be explained so that you can grasp all of it . Its like trying to explain red to a blind man .

"Anyone who is already interested in searching for god and takes some good quantity [say 7 or 9 gr of P.cubensis] of psychedelics will eventually let loose of his ego and feel god?"

Yes , that is posible but its not definate .

"Doesn't this imply the belief in god's notion? "

Yes . But its not your notion of God , its not your definition of God .

"I can tell you that I am atheist and have never seen or experienced God."

Yes you have , you just dont understand it because you are aplying your definition to it . God has nothing to do with religeon .

"It amazes me too that so many people do talk about this religious stuff. "

Again you are interpreting things as religeon . We are talking about ultimate truths and finding answers .

"So I can have a fanastic experience and explain it by scientific knowledge,"

No you cant , see what i said above .

"no gods needed"

You are talking about your definitions again and argueing against them .

"but still need some psycedelics to get that feeling for I don't get it when I'm sober."

When you are not on a trip you are not on a trip , whats the big deal with that ? The trip hasnt got God in it , the trip gets you in a position where you can see without your ego . The truth is there weather you have a trip or not .

Lao tse said :- "The more thinking and talking the farther from the truth" .

Empty your mind , stop defining things , stop quantifying things , stop describing things , stop the internal dialog , stop the world . Open your mind and heart and be aware .

 

[No-Key]

What I experience seems like a compromise between the two world systems you describe (atheistic/theistic). I never "feel" god as anything other than the totality of all things in all their potential states, which is how I feel about god normally, but psychedelics make this fact feel tangible, they break down the walls which my environment has built up around me that keep me away from god (read: totality), and make clear the role of everything.

I always think about the evolution of man, the formation of stars, and the mathematical consistency of beauty, while under the effects.

I never think about how it is some coherent entity with some primitive agenda or purpose, I think God is beyond that.

 

[random]

Before going further, God is a Word(and Word itself). Like Shit is a Word or Eye is a Word.

Then we have what we call interpretations. And as has been said here, you are interpretating what you want to interpret from others interpretation about the word God.

For me, God=Universe=Uknown=Everything=Oneness. So using any of these words, it's the same, they have the same interpretation, for me.

We are talking about the rest . God as a name for all the things that havent been explained , as an unidentifyed phenomenen that we have to look for , to define . By pealing the layers of the mystery one by one untill we get to the answer .

Exactly.
Even though God is all things, even those that already were "explained".

Anyone who is already interested in searching for god and takes some good quantity [say 7 or 9 gr of P.cubensis] of psychedelics will eventually let loose of his ego and feel god?

I'm sorry, why one should be interested in searching something that is already here and now?
And I'm sorry again, but I never took any psychedelics other than Salvia and it was only two times (and I smoke Cannabis, sporadicaly), and even though I Feel the Oneness between my existance and what surrounds me. And yes I believe psychedelics may open more doors to my perception of reality, but I can't agree that one needs psychoactive substances to feel what We All Share.

When you are not on a trip you are not on a trip , whats the big deal with that ? The trip hasnt got God in it , the trip gets you in a position where you can see without your ego .

Thank you very much

Empty your mind , stop defining things , stop quantifying things , stop describing things , stop the internal dialog , stop the world . Open your mind and heart and be aware .

And be Here and Now, since it's all you have.

And I can't add more anything ( Even though I think I actually didn't added any :roll: I just had to write something ).

Basically, I agree with Space-Is-The-Place :

Thanks Silv, Fork, Buff, GOD and ofcourse Heartcore (and others I forgot)
rayer:
My thoughts exactly Very Happy

Love

 

[Maru]

'God' is indeed an outdated word, and dangerous to use. However it carries also some usefull concepts that many people can share.

I enjoy the expression 'ALL THAT IS', but althought it is not too limitated, it does not carry the magical, living, nature of the consciousness.
I considered myself as an atheist until recently...
But during a peak experience, I realized there was a kind of relationship between what I am as an individual consciousness and what I am as the whole stuff.
Relationship means that there is no separation but also no identification. It's not hard to imagine that the concept of 'God' may comes from that filiation feeling.
The creator and the creature are one but not identical. Quite paradoxical huh ?
I guess that such kind of paradox can only be lived, it is beyond the common sense and beyond any intellectual explanation.
But for people who mainly live thru their intellect, it is quite hard to experiment such things... so the need for some 'heroic' doses 8)
Ah well, heroic means a bit dangerous and it is certainly not needed. A dose enough strong to overwhelmed the intellect is required. And there is no rule, it is totally personal and will logicaly depend on the set and settings.

doesn't seek god in his quests?

We seek ourselves.

Or someone who has had several experiences and didn't ever encounter god?

'Encoutering' is just a way of experiencing ALL THAT IS. This is an option and not that important IMO.

Even more, isn't there an atheist psychonaut anywhere?

Sure I was. No God, not at all, nothing like that. Why do people seems need something 'external' ? Quite childish attitude huh ? We, modern and scientifically educated people deserve better stories !

or even more, doesn't some explorer exists that his experiences with psychoactives / psychdelics not only didn't reveal god, but helped explain the world and universe and this simple explanation didn't need a god and will never do?

Oh my God, what a sentence ! So much heavy words :

"Explain"
"Universe"
"Simple Explanation"
"Need"

I have a bad news for you, I bet that the farther you'll explore, the closer you'll come to your home, and your home is not a simple explanation.

==============

And one question for those that do associate with god in their quests, why do you think that 'god' needs a heroic dose to be taken for him to be revealed?

God do not need a heroic dose, do *you* need a heroic dose ?
Ah well, dosing is for the cheaters. Good people go to the church

Thanks for your questions, I was very glad to post here, it helped me to put some words on that difficult to communicate subjects.

------------------------

Ahhh guys, the time I write the post above, there was 3 more ones. I read them... and it seems we are saying the same thing. You makes me happy, really, without any substance ! God is there, indeed

 

[mutant]

I wonder if you have had such experiences of feeling united with the universe, because since have had them, I very well understand that people use religious terms to describe the experience. So have you had such experiences, regardless of what terms you use for it or what meanings you link with it?

Yes I have felt that ecstatic feel of extreme connection with the surroundings and everything especially in my first time on lsd, and it had been kind of the same [much less intense though] with my first experiences with cannabis.

I suspect it's the same phenomenon, maybe it's has been the same phenomenon since first men used ergolines/tryptamines/phenethylamines ... and it has an impressive reoccurence but also depends on the individual and how he perceives it as well.

Also, kind of like random says, once you felt it, you can somehow induce it or work it and integrate in you life. Of course, biology and related knowledge can confirm this, [appreciation of nature and studying it are not always uncompromising!], and being close to it and feeling it's immediate effect on the polluted by urban signals human body and mind are also the other side of the same phenomenon: human's connection with this very planet that gave birth to him and all being on it brings some kind of joy, emotion, thrill and a somewhat ancient touch.

It is true that all these stand alone perfectly alright without no 'god', a higher being, etc.

I like it that most have not tangled or were not tangled by my initial point, which is in fact an in depth questioning of the nature of 'god', the birth of religion and its connection with psychedelic use.

I already know many people use the term god only loosely, sometimes to communicate with other psychonauts, sometimes to describe the whole - the earth or the universe as an organism, the god within or interactivity of the whole system: universe-earth-man-self.

It is no new idea that psychedelics played a part in the forming of the first religions, and this is no strange as well, if we think what we have all felt, it seems. Psychedelics seem to cause those overwhelming sensations and realisations, which could maybe start causing deeper conscience in apes and creation of the concept of god in primeval human groups. It seems that increasing the dose makes the sensation becoming more and more intense and overwhelming - modern [and reportedly, some, not really religious] people start describing contacts with entities, god, aliens etc.

Is it the 'real deal' or is it maybe just that the heroic dose is so big, so enormous, so overwhelming that the brain cannot really help it , but create something conceivable, like 'voice of god', aliens, entities from another dimention etc? [just an hypothesis, I would be glad to know what you all think]

Stighar, allow me to disagree with you. i think that beyond certain dosages, you have no choice than to see god.
heroic dosages differ from person to person, however! i have really (but REALLY) low tolerance to psilocybin and acid, and it takes me small amounts to have crazy visuals, and not much for full-blown, ego death. i have discovered this the hard way, that's why i always advise people to start with really small amounts. a heroic dosage for me is perhaps a small dosage for many users here, it is really relative. but the consequence of such is not relative at all..

I like what you said Daytripper and I tend to agree that the heroic dosage is very relative - I also advise people against heroic doses at their first journey and to first see how the substance communicates with them. [ regarding lsd and other classic psychedelics] Also interesting is that you say that above a certain amount [different for each individual], eventually 'something' will be seen/contacted.

Uh.... GOD, again!
First of all you seem to think Jonasvannijnatten and me are the same person and answer inconsequently - well , we're separate individuals!

I really am not into any personal fight with you, it seems you took my comments on datura thread too personaly and this doesn't really say much about you 'enightment' you claim I need to get. Don't overestimate yourself man, there are many interesting people here I could argue - you're getting old.

Yeah I got doubts, I am a fucking explorer, I choose no easy answers - yet everything seems to be perfectly fitting and rewarding in the way life brought it for me to be and associate with reality and humanity. You say I am angry [of course i am angry, angry at the ignorance, world politics and the fact that happiness so many times is so close to people and most don't ever realise that - and I think that's a healthy and productive anger I have!], and that "we see that you are not satisfied with your life or yourself" - Well I will use your own quote here, again...

All i need is loads of MONEY , coke , hash , sex , a porsch , a cleaning lady , (with big tits) , a holiday in india , a new liver , a flat screen TV , satalite TV , plastic surgery , more money , a new computer , sex , money , a life , sex , grass , coke , LSD , DMT , tits..

and will only add I don't accept arbitrary patronising consultance from a guy that made the above comment.

I will thank you again though, that took the time to discuss the dosage thing [actually, a big thing in my point and investigation of the matter] and I hope others will also care to throw in their two bits regarding dosage ~ godly-like visions...

Lastly but not least, I think No-Key's post is great and interesting because it shows of a fine example that a major psychedelic experience somewhat displaces the traditional notion of god and makes it tangible, in a way that actually reminds anything but supernatural or other entities.

Thank you all for the interest

PS:

Thanks for your questions, I was very glad to post here, it helped me to put some words on that difficult to communicate subjects.

Thank YOU for you answers, and for being the first one to answer all at once! Also for throwing some humor in as well

 

[GOD]

"It seems that increasing the dose makes the sensation becoming more and more intense and overwhelming "

No , not nesecerily . Again God must not have anything to do with dose , especialy not overwhelming doses .

"modern [and reportedly, some, not really religious] people start describing contacts with entities, god, aliens etc. "

Its got nothing to do with modern people , as you said , "It is no new idea that psychedelics played a part in the forming of the first religions, " And people have trips and a trip is a trip , its not reality . People who meet fantasy aliens or fantasy beings or fantasy gods or a fantasy god are having fantasys , usualy caused by taking larger doses of psychedelics and loosing contact with reality . We have not been talking about having fantasys or loosing touch with reality . We are talking about useing psychedelics to atain ego death and see the world as it is .

"Is it the 'real deal' or is it maybe just that the heroic dose is so big, so enormous, so overwhelming that the brain cannot really help it , but create something conceivable, like 'voice of god', aliens, entities from another dimention etc? "

Again you are asociating big doses with god experiences , confusing fantasys with reality . A fantasy figure created by taking big doses of drugs remains a fantasy . God is not an hallucination . We are talking about taking psychedelics to take off the conditioning that we have learned , to get rid of the egos ilusions and see what is realy there . Not creating a fantasy and calling it God .

You are not listening to anything that anyone is saying here . You might understand if you read the books that i recomended to you .

"Uh.... GOD, again! First of all you seem to think Jonasvannijnatten and me are the same person and answer inconsequently - well , we're separate individuals! "

You are projecting things on me again .

"I really am not into any personal fight with you,"

Stop doing it then .

"it seems you took my comments on datura thread too personaly and this doesn't really say much about you 'enightment' you claim I need to get. Don't overestimate yourself man, there are many interesting people here I could argue - "

You are projecting things on me again . I never used the word enlightenment .

"you're getting old.""

So are you getting old . What has my getting older to do with your mental confusion .

"Yeah I got doubts, I am a fucking explorer, I choose no easy answers"

I try to choose the right answers , weather they are easy or not is irelevant . The three parts of you sentance have nothing to do with eachother .

"and I think that's a healthy and productive anger I have!]"

I dont .

"Quote:
All i need is loads of MONEY , coke , hash , sex , a porsch , a cleaning lady , (with big tits) , a holiday in india , a new liver , a flat screen TV , satalite TV , plastic surgery , more money , a new computer , sex , money , a life , sex , grass , coke , LSD , DMT , tits..

and will only add I don't accept arbitrary patronising consultance from a guy that made the above comment. "

Because you are mentaly confused and prove that because you didnt understand it allthough the meaning of what i said is blatantly obvious . Nothing i said to you was "arbitrary patronising" , you think that because you are confused .

You take no advice , you dont listen to what anyone says , you keep twisting things that are said to you , you keep talking about dosage and Godly visions as if its all hallucinations . Stop talking shit and atain ego death . You are to buisy clasifying and defineing so you miss the point . If you are so right why dont you understand ?????

"Anyone who DOESN'T see 'god' on his explorations?"

Yes . You . Because you are not doing it , you are talking about it .

 

[Rymmen]

Is god something more than connection, infinity, awereness? [3 elements that Rymmen, self-called atheist psychonaut nicely said] Why do we need another word, that ultimately says nothing new?

DIVINE was not associated with any known religion. it was the ultimate wisdom, the clearest power... I'd call it the essence of life.
I named it divine because that kind of power is often ascribed to GODS in religion...In my trip, however, there were no entities, supreme beings...no archetypes at all.

See? So why do we need this word divine? it's pretty standard that it is something we attribute to some godly creature or world ...

==============

Any thoughts more than welcome.

Oh, I am merely absent of theology in the traditional sense. I have not encountered a creator god, and the beings that I assume some people would call pagan gods, even though I have encountered them, I do not believe in them. But then, I am not a phenomanalist, and I doubt the existence and connectedness of everything.

On heroic doses, though, I cannot say why it is that people encounter their pure awareness and open their eyes to the universe. Indeed, it could be simply an impulse created by a subconscious desire, it could be very real. What can you do but experience it and apply that wisdom to life?

We call it divine because that is the description that feels it, or at least I do. Everyday life is divine if you see it through mindful eyes.

Also, psychonauts, I feel that you are being rather aggressive. Remember, love is for everyone. Let's address his valid doubts, and try to communicate our individual perceptions... not set up defensive and aggressive barriers that would only harm the thread.

 

[Forkbender]

Also, psychonauts, I feel that you are being rather aggressive. Remember, love is for everyone. Let's address his valid doubts, and try to communicate our individual perceptions... not set up defensive and aggressive barriers that would only harm the thread.

Amen.

 

[Forkbender]

Here's a question to you all:

If you are against some social institution like religion, statism, science, whatever, howcome? Why do you take offense if someone values ideas like God, Objectivity, the Nation State, Individualism, etc.? If you are hesitant to look at certain ideas before you get to know them, it stands in the way of your personal development, something which I guess most psychonauts are looking for.

When I use the word God, I do it precisely because I want to both refer to something that is inexplicable to someone who hasn't had a deep experience (and dose doesn't really matter if you're open to it) AND agitate the people who think that God is evil and cannot be real and whatever, hoping that they eventually start questioning their own prejudices. Because: what does it matter to you that I call something God? I don't think you can seriously take offense if you truly believe in the truthfullness and integrity of your own self.

God is peace.

 

[BrainEater]

kind off too lazy to read everything here, but what i read i liked! 8)

search for yourself and you will find god, for you are god. but beware, you might at some instance not be sure what is you/yourself and be afraid of this. don't. when you reached this point you'll be close/closer to the goal.

peace.

 

[JosVU]

"Is it the 'real deal' or is it maybe just that the heroic dose is so big, so enormous, so overwhelming that the brain cannot really help it , but create something conceivable, like 'voice of god', aliens, entities from another dimention etc? "

Again you are asociating big doses with god experiences , confusing fantasys with reality . A fantasy figure created by taking big doses of drugs remains a fantasy .

A fantasy figure seen as truth is also a truth.
Guy i know believes in the devil, in his reality the devil isnt fantasy. In my reality the devil is fantasy. Which reality is real? For me mine for him his maybe God thinks we're both wrong, or both right maybe i'm wrong and they are right.. But thats up to each individual to decide for themselfs, right?

 

[Forkbender]

Right!

Universal Perspectivism FTW!

 

[mutant]

GOD, when I said you are getting old I implied you repeat yourself. And a comment to you or anyonelse saying "Hey, people don't be agressive! etc", I don't have anything against an intense arguement, on the contrary, but getting things personal like you do, puts unwanted noise to the pretty high signal-to-noise ratio of this wonderful discussion.

Who told you I asked for advice or that I don't understand something? I am discussing a phenomenon and you input is really appreciated, where relevant. Please stop telling me what is right and what is wrong, I have my own morals and I am listening to everyone, including you, even if you seem to be having huge problems with my take on things and life. Hopefully it's only you, otherwise I would be here.

You say that big doses are irrellevant to the notion of 'god' and what people really experience in higher doses is fantasies. How do you think these fantasies form, I mean with what cretirion? Fears? Desires? Doubts? Weaknesses? Or all these and anything at all?

If you are against some social institution like religion, statism, science, whatever, howcome? Why do you take offense if someone values ideas like God, Objectivity, the Nation State, Individualism, etc.?

These are great questions, and lead to a big discussion. I personally do not believe that people only live through their ID as psychonaut or anything - well I don't for one - similarly, the words we use, even if sometimes they are used in a specific context, they don't loose their other meanings, the historical and other weight of their use etc. So, if you start calling psychedelic phenomena, which are many, different and pretty complex on some occasions [or much simpler in others, in their wonderful quality], 'contacts' or characterise them as divine phenomena and this is becoming established in psychedelic communities, then it would be strange if noone objected to this, even just philosophically.

So, to answer you question - I am not offended by ideas like religion and god, but I don't like them. I got reasons for this, it;s not just aesthetics. Philosophy through active living, but also as a 'battle of ideas' does not only talk about what annoys or offends the subject [the philosopher]. Philosophy means to love to know, to love wisdom.

To speak about elimination of concepts like god or religion not only is an ancient philosophical matter, not only has very stable bases as an idea, but also extends to a totally diffent philosophies of life, and by that I mean the actual living, not only 'battle of ideas'. Eliminating such concepts through proper education and deeper understanding the values of our planet and nature can lead to a much more active and passionate living, a positive lust for life and joy, better communication and social life, ultimately a much more human-centred civilization - of course this 're-programming' is individual.

I am totally aware that some people are offended when these ideas are discussed, but I cannot help but feel that this is unavoidable and, in the bottom line, not so tragic or offensive after all. God is ultimately a personal idea - what I am trying to un-structure is not the personal god of each one, but 'god' and religion as a concept - I can't help it that some people take my general scorning of god too personally - I suppose it's unavoidable as I already said.

So, Forkbender, what is the difference between self and ego? [from your signature] I understand that everyone [regardless teh community] has some serious trouble against the concept of 'ego'. How would you define ego compared to self?

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So... keep it coming! How do you connect the psychedelic experience with the notion of 'god' ? What happens as the dosage increases? If god = the real reality that is revealed and felt on these states, how come you name it 'god'? Is it that some are too stuck with shamanism practises that are indeed fascinating take on reality and life, but somewhat incompatible with this era or rationalism and computers?

Why call the ultimate truth god?

Coming up next - at psychonaut.com !!!!