Anyone who DOESN'T see 'god' on his explorations?

[Harlequin]

exactly... so the whole point for those who see it this way, is why the hell would you call the manifestation of the self 'god', 'divine' or anything? just because you had an epifany?? and I think this is what the initial question is all about...

Maybe we try to use the words most closely describing the indescribable. That word differs from person to person. Maybe we are all trying to call things by their true names? Even if there can be no true definition separate from the thing being described. Not being afraid of any word or thought. Trying what feels the truest.

Words in themselves are bits of information. They force the thoughts in to small packets. How can this packet transfer something that is infinitely interconnected? The problem is that otherwise there would only be silence. From another perspective even this isn't a problem at all. Silence is wonderful. Silence or words, it doesn't matter. Pick what you want.

There are different planes of understanding, all describing the same experiences in different words and perspectives, all existing simultaneously. No thing above the other. All equal.

 

[Dantediv86]

all true
@ mutant
but if people see the devine in life and the psyche, therefore the soul, they see a manifestation of a/some godly(or superior that the human mind can only glimpse at and that is an existing, maybe conscious?, entity or energy) being/s, not? that can't that be called seing god?
that is if you believe in god
if you don't
you just see a projection of your psyche



fuck i just realized i do see god.....

 

[st.bot.32]

It's interesting, with Salvia I always feel I am in touch with spiritual entities. But I can't deny my religious upbringing at the same time, which is still deeply entrenched into me. And afterwards I can usually have a chuckle about it, whether I see ghosts in the kitchen or feel I am in telekinetic contact with a spirit... I have yet to really understand how Salvia brings things out of the psyche..

For me the ultimate "feeling of the divine" from psychedelics would be the feeling I get when I close my eyes and float away into the acid experience, with all the mental paths that come with it, lopsided geometry spiraling into infinity.

I suppose that is because at heart even though I'm agnostic I tend to lean towards the pantheistic side, with the feeling that the universe itself with its laws that lead towards the formation of life could be considered "god." Because I have the feeling that there may be unknown variables out there beyond us, but I can't describe them. However, I'm speaking metaphorically. I wouldn't assume that just by taking a blotter tab I'm suddenly in touch with God/the entire universe. That strikes me somehow as a manifestation of human pretentiousness. Just my opinion of course.

 

[tryptonaut]

Maybe we try to use the words most closely describing the indescribable.

That's what I think - I have been an agnostic for some time of my life, and then I experienced things on psychedelic drugs that were so extremely spiritual that I can't deny spirituality anymore. I am far away from the church's concept of "god", but some things you experience on psychedelics just have to be described in unusually extreme words. "God" is one of these words (describing some extremely unbelievable and overly great power). There are not enough words in our languages to describe the powerful experiences of psychedelic drugs - that's why we use the most powerful words we know to come close to it (and "god" is one of the most extreme words we have)

 

[mutant]

There are not enough words in our languages to describe the powerful experiences of psychedelic drugs - that's why we use the most powerful words we know to come close to it (and "god" is one of the most extreme words we have)

exactly! there are are no words for these things, there is no psychedelic vocabulary and like Harlequin said, one will try to use what feels better - despite that, I feel that some psychonauts are somewhat too affected by the psychedelic teachings of their gurus in contrary to really try to figure out for themselves what's the score.

McKenna talked about this [lack of vocabulary of these spaces] and kind of tried to establish some concepts. What he did manage was to make people actually see elves and spirits, creatures from other dimentions and aliens - in my opinion he failed, as Leary also failed, both trying to preach what only was their individual visions and approach for psychedelia with which they had become obsessed.

Who can really make a univarsal vocabulary for such spaces that are notably similar but so much individual in their perception and and response at the same time?

I believe that psychonauts use the word god in the same sense it was originally intended. Psychedelics states cause awe, cause tremendous feelings and sensations, sometimes so intense and previously unknown, so beautiful and overwhelming or so frightening, in any case, it feels like it has to be real, so people believe it's real, and it;s so intense so it has to be something living. It's an epiphany, that's all.

[=An illuminating realization or discovery, often resulting in a personal feeling of elation, awe, or wonder.]

With salvia, and maybe dissociatives also it's even more comlicated I think. Salvia makes you feel the body is unpeeled or deconstructed, it makes you feel there is peripherical movement all around, it makes you feel you're moving, spinning and coming out of the body, it makes you feel there's some kind of action around while in reality you're in a semi-anesthesiac state - so with all these, why the heck wouldn't ones mind feel some spiritual entities appear as well?

 

[st.bot.32]

I believe that psychonauts use the word god in the same sense it was originally intended. Psychedelics states cause awe, cause tremendous feelings and sensations, sometimes so intense and previously unknown, so beautiful and overwhelming or so frightening, in any case, it feels like it has to be real, so people believe it's real, and it;s so intense so it has to be something living. It's an epiphany, that's all.

Yes. Psychedelics are profoundly similar to the feeling of religious epiphany, but with the added effects of outright seeing, hearing, sensing the experience. If you've ever had a genuine religious experience in which you felt touched by God you know what I mean. (Speaking as a former X-tian here who once was a true believer ;) )

As for Leary, McKenna, and so much psychedelic literature, my reaction is similar to yours. I think going into psychedelics having escaped from a former religious background and religious mindset reinforced my belief in thinking twice about how I interpret the world. For the simple reason that I know from experience that the senses can actually just make shit up, and hence I am critical of my senses. I would rarely/never take a psychedelic journey at face value, and what I do get out of it often only becomes clearer as I'm more removed from the experience.

There is so much to be learned from psychedelics, and so many ways to benefit from them, I see no reason to "believe" in things that can't be proven merely because I "felt" them to be true. So my approach to psychedelics is similar in how I see religion, I see the incredible beauty, I can get into the headspace and bask in it, but I'm agnostic at the same time.

As for Salvia, I find myself in a basically hypnagogic state feeling connected to the entire surrounding environment in seemingly random sort of ways, it is no wonder that my mind attempts to explain the connections by ways of "spirits", etc.

 

[mutant]

I would rarely/never take a psychedelic journey at face value, and what I do get out of it often only becomes clearer as I'm more removed from the experience.

There is so much to be learned from psychedelics, and so many ways to benefit from them, I see no reason to "believe" in things that can't be proven merely because I "felt" them to be true. So my approach to psychedelics is similar in how I see religion, I see the incredible beauty, I can get into the headspace and bask in it, but I'm agnostic at the same time.

As for Salvia, I find myself in a basically hypnagogic state feeling connected to the entire surrounding environment in seemingly random sort of ways, it is no wonder that my mind attempts to explain the connections by ways of "spirits", etc.

Wow, man, I really can't stretch this enough! There is so much potential and truth in your thoughts, that I would be glad this conversation took place, even if this last post of yours was the only one. That is not to lessen the importance , insight or genuine quality of all the other posts, it's just, that I feel very connected to what st.bot.32 said and well, each one is a different cake, but sometimes, when two people reach an 'agreement' of some short, it can raise some or more enthusiasm in my book ;)

St.bot.32, you have my ultimate respect for your thinking and approach! :)

 

[Dantediv86]

hey it just occurred to me...
what if (God smoked cannabis....ok ok i'll try to cut the BS i'm too high sorry)
our perception of what is "god" or godly or spiritual is but a product of our immagination (a chemical reaction at synaptic levels anyway)?

 

[Psychoid]

What is god? :)

I don't understand exactly what you mean...

 

[Brugmansia]

A creation of mankind. :lol:

 

[BrainEater]

what is mankind? ... a creation of god? :P

 

[Dantediv86]

what are we? a bunch of idiots suffering from an overdose of existentialism?

 

[Forkbender]

^existantialism? pfff... Don't get me started.

If God would take LSD, would he see people?

 

[Dantediv86]

he would see how average Joes live :P

 

[Guest]

Hahaha, God going bad :mrgreen:

 

[random]

Last night I had an intense salvia experience.
And I came to find out that there is nothing, other than the Self Existance.
Our thoughts, values, personality, imagination, emotions, etc... is some kind of a thin 'cloak'.
And our True Self (The Existance) is always going against that cloak and going backwards. Creating our countless 'Me' or 'I's that we have.
And once that cloak is broken (either by meditation, or psychedelics, or other ways that I can't recall right now), you find out that your existance, as Self, is Here, Now, Ethernal, and part of Everything, just like everything is part of you. It's One. And can't be any other way.

Yesterday I met the Self. And the ego was refusing to meet it. So I was kind of struggling.
But it was very strange. I had, clearly, 2 of my 'MEs' talking with the Self(myself) (I believe that Self has nothing to do with Ego. They are completely seperate from each other.)
One was saying that I actually don't exist, and this was everything just a dream, like a projection of my mind. And the other was saying that I Do exist. And was kind of pulling (my energy) back into my body. Trying to say me "Be Here! Be Alive! Be in the ethernal Now! Don't be afraid!". So for like 30 seconds, I was feeling my Self going withdrawed from the body and at the same time being pulled by it.

At the end, I was feeling this wonderful joy of being alive. Feeling that I actually existed (the self). And that I can't do any thing, other than the Best of the Self Existance. There's no space for sadness, depression, for filosofy's, for doubts or denials, for negative emotions and imagination, for expectations and illusions. None of that trash, that our brain is always creating, worth's any energy.

We are energy flowing within Dreams.
Every day we have a different dream. They may be similar, but they are not the same.
The Universe is the Ultimate Dreamland.
Unit.
I am me as much as you're me and as much as you or me or he is any of us, or the Sun, or Mars, or Gravity, or Air, Water, Dust, Black hole, Buildings, Shoes, .. Anything, you name it. It can't be any other way. It is what it is.

Defenitions are locks/jails to our Perception and Interpertation.
God is a Word.

Love

 

[zarlack_galactic_explorer]

To say "God" or "Allah" and then to have the belief in a one creator and then try to personalize or conceive this in our minds is somewhat difficult. And we each have a different mind construct and perceptual model which our minds have been running miles with so one sees god like "this" and another like "that" relative to their own insight or understanding. There are divine forces everywhere and yes like many here have stated, "God" is the closest matching word! Im sure the creator is to an extent "unconceivable" and if we were to see or know god then there would be nothing left for us to ask. That would kind of suck

Also the way i perceive "god" has been intangible in my own mind because i can not put my finger on the actual grit of the fabric which makes "god" and thus nothing is cement or certain. So the reality of "god" is only relative to how I see "god" or how is represented in infinite different ways through creation and conscious, and the creator speaks through his creation.

There is much speculation in this matter, and if the individual wants to further his awareness and understanding in this subject, he or she has to remain genuinely seeking this divine force to make sense of it and attempting to experience it and explore it in different ways, altered states of conscious (psychedelics or not), religious (I mean spiritual) philosophy, even a walk on a mountain for meditation, to help explore the divine can assist exploration. But with 6billion people on this earth and a concept where only 1 reality can ultimately exist, there is a great clash between misconceptions and oppositions and in all this confusion and war, people carry on with the traditions of their fore fathers and are time consumed with killing eachother that they have never realized they were missing the true wisdom and understanding of life and "god" and so consequently prevent theirselves from seeking the answers and the ability to broaden their horizon.

I can say if you were to compare a number of shamans or red indians / tribal people etc. with a number of christians or jews etc. you would almost certainly find that the christians or jews etc, though with their theist beliefs completely lack spiritual wisdom even though they are putting effort into visiting the "church" for an hour on a sunday.
There is a great difference in the way they approach the divine.
I believe the shaman way is more efficient, effective and direct compared to having beliefs but not performing tasks to further heighten the senses and understanding.


I am sure there are divine forces due to the ever present correlation in the most serious of philosophical and spiritual concepts such as karmic religions, bhuddism, taoism, etc all the way to shamanism,

So yes i am sure there are divine forces. words i could communicate would be extra terrestials - spirit entities (good and bad ones thus "angels and demons") multidimensional non- physical matter co existent to the one reality. Yes like someone said here- All is one.

sorry could have and wanted to add more but its late and im forgetful (due to tiredness) so i should have posted earlier for a clearer explanation of my own "way of seing the world" - its always changing but for the good! I know because i can feel it and see the change in my life in a constant framework of "out with the bad, in with the good" developmental approach to better my self hopefully

peace and blessings

 

[magickmumu]

Wow what a discussion.
I come from a non religious family.
For me believe systems are like tools, not truths.
Fingers pointing at the moon.
I love to learn about religion and spirituality. I read and learn about these things, and use what I feel is useful.

Yes, psychedelics are a way to connect with the spirit world.
It can open our minds to this living, breathing world. A world we are all part of.

 

[tryptonaut]

I witnessed a catholic procession this weekend - I thought it was just going to be some people carrying Jesus figures through the streets (well, essentially it was just that). But then suddenly everybody, hundreds of people went silent, only sudden bursts of dramatic music from horns and trumpets, then silence again, and drums. The beat of a what I would call shaman drum, slow, meaningful, boom... boom... boom...
It gave me the shivers and it was creating some kind of spiritual feeling that you could feel in the air.
I was really surprised the catholic church still had to offer something spiritual like that. We don't need the magic stories, the oppression, the dogma - what we need is spiritual experience to feel the greater oneness of us all (or "god"?)

 

[random]

Im sure the creator is to an extent "unconceivable" and if we were to see or know god then there would be nothing left for us to ask. That would kind of suck

If I, finally, "knew" the Self Creator of this Holy Experience, I'd wonder "who" created "It"(?)

There is much speculation in this matter, and if the individual wants to further his awareness and understanding in this subject, he or she has to remain genuinely seeking this divine force to make sense of it and attempting to experience it and explore it in different ways, altered states of conscious (psychedelics or not), religious (I mean spiritual) philosophy, even a walk on a mountain for meditation, to help explore the divine can assist exploration.

The only thing, I think, we, as Selfs, as Creations, have to do, is to be Open to accept our existance. Open to accept our ignorance upon the Unknown. Accept that we do not know anything, yet we know everything. We can't explain it to the other, but we can feel it in the depths of our Selfs.
We are reflections of the Uknown.

I've been thinking about it, and increasingly i've come to realize that philosophy is a completely maze. It's a labyrinth with no way in and no way out. Our minds go there, go around and around, think and think, spend energy, life and time. And finally when we come out we know exactly the same as when we entered in that confusion state. In some cases, less.

I would like to talk more about psychedelics, but my lack of experience don't let me go too deep. But I had an idea today, after reading some Ouspensky words about drugs. I think certain life forms, that take us to some wonderful or outrageous states of counciousness, simply show us what we can achieve without their use. That's why we can't handle everything (in my opinion, we "handle" only a thin spark of the whole experiencel) that is shown in those altered states. Because we can't. We are still down here. We look up and we can't see when does the stairs of evolution ends.


We are creations.
Everything around us is part of Our Creation. We made it. Not counsciously, but we made it. Everything is Creations. Patterns spreading into the infinite.

Love