Vegetarianism & Veganism

[ODB]

Brugmansia writes:

The central nervous system works properly through sufficient ingestion of natrium, kalium, sodium, filaments, vitamins B1, B6, B12, omega-3, folic acid, calcium, iodine, magnesium, zinc, iron and many others. They all work synergetically in balanced amounts. As a vegan, you're missing a lot of these micro nutritions and therefore, hormone regulation and the proper functions of your CNS may be affected in their function.

ODB answers:

I am a vegan and I do get all the nutrients that I need. If you say that vegans do not then you have not done your research and are speaking from ignorance. Do a little research and you will find its very easy to get what you need as a vegan. Do not be so brain washed to believe you have to eat animal product to survive.

Now, who of two seems to actually know about nutrition and physiology? Who is being scientific here? Counter Brugmansia's arguments with research, rather than calling him brain washed.

'Do a little research and you will find its very easy to get what you need as a vegan.'

I already did the research myself. I do not care if they/you eat right, its not my problem if you want to harm your body. I was only expressing that I am healthy and do get what my body needs while being vegan.

When you do not think for yourself and regurgitate lies then you ARE brainwashed(TV/school). You do know that dairy farmers pay the FDA to tell you that animal product is good for your health only so they can turn a larger profit? I am not going to do the work for you because its more rewarding to find the information yourself, seek and you will find. I am a very healthy person and dont have to prove it to anyone. If you want to seek good health you will find it. Vegans live longer.

On another note, do you believe that LSD, DMT, and 4-ho-dmt are bad for you? Cause the same crowd that told you to eating aminals are healthy are the ones telling you 'facts' say these 'drugs' are of no use and are dangerous. You do not have to believe me, that is your choice to make. Just like I really dont feel like sourcing info for you. Find it yerself.

 

[GOD]

"Vegans live longer. "

Prove it .

Humans are "alles fresser" ( = they eat everything ) and thats one of the secrets of our "sucess" . The only reason you can play that game and survive is because you live in a society that provides everything . If you had to produce all your own vegan food you would die in weeks .

Prove that eating animal products is unhealthy if one isnt greedy .

Because the industry pays for adverts and lobbyists doesnt mean anything . Every industry does it . The fact that the government lies about "drugs" doesnt mean that everything they say is wrong .

"When you do not think for yourself and regurgitate lies then you ARE brainwashed(TV/school). "

You arent brain washed ?

" I am a very healthy person"

Is that a personal opinion or have you had a full medical examination ? Does it mean that you will still be healthy in 20 years ?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I already did the research myself.

In this age of the Web it is very easy to share that research with others. You're either lazy, bluffing, or a combination of the two.

We're talking about the long-term effects of veganism versus other diets here. Not whether you are currently healthy, that's irrelevant.

The question is: which diet maintains the human body (cardiovascular, neurological, muscular, dermatological, immunal etc.) best?

I think it's better to go beyond the boundaries of veganism, vegetarianism, lacto-vegetarianism etc. and look at the categories of food themselves, and see whether abstaining from all animal products is really the best thing to do. To avoid sidetracking, all of the food sources below are organic: no antibiotics and growth hormones present in them. The fish are from relatively clean waters, and the eggs were found in an open field.

Meat: yes/no
Pork: yes/no
Poultry: yes/no
Fish: yes/no
Milk: yes/no
Other dairy (yogurt, quark, buttermilk): yes/no
Eggs: yes/no
Honey: yes/no

In the above list, especially fish, eggs and 'other dairy products' all have arguments in favor and against them.

Milk, poultry, pork and other types of meat are just not necessary for anyone. You eat them because you like the taste. Their unhealthy aspects (saturated fats for example) outweigh their possible health benefits (source of protein etc.).

 

[GOD]

This is pissing me off . You are all talking subjective shit . Animal products are not unhealthy . Eating things with chemicals in them or eating to much is unhealthy . The air you breath contains poisons why not stop breathing .

There has never been a time in human history when humans were pure vegetarians or vegans . They have always eaten everything they can get their hands on . People used to say that monkeys , elephants , hippos and other animals are pure vegans........... untill they were all filmed eating meat .

Before we talk about what is unhealthy and how unhealthy lets get the facts , lets compair risks in a potential dangers / risks list .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

This is pissing me off . You are all talking subjective shit . Animal products are not unhealthy . Eating things with chemicals in them or eating to much is unhealthy .

Saturated fats are unhealthy, especially in the long term. The type of iron in meat, heam, has been linked to cancer in the colon. Meat eating in general has been linked to colon cancer.

About eating red meat in general: http://www.cancer.org/docroot/NWS/c...g_Lots_of_Red_Meat_Linked_to_Colon_Cancer.asp

About haem: http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/21/10/1909

About saturated fats: http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/542397

There has never been a time in human history when humans were pure vegetarians or vegans . They have always eaten everything they can get their hands on .

That says nothing about what foods are healthy and which are not.

 

[restin]

CM, look at the title of your homepage. Lots of Red meat.

Milk, poultry, pork and other types of meat are just not necessary for anyone. You eat them because you like the taste. Their unhealthy aspects (saturated fats for example) outweigh their possible health benefits (source of protein etc.).

What IS necessary? How do you define necessary? What is the *unhealthy aspect* of milk?

 

[GOD]

"Saturated fats are unhealthy, "

.......... ?????? In what dose ? Paracelsus said " The dose makes the poison" , drinking to much water is unhealthy .

Eating to much / contaminated / to fat meat is asociated with cancer and being unhealthy . Is it the meat ? or the dose ? Or the condition of the meat ? Or decadence ? The illnesses you are all talking about dont apear in cultures that hunt , dont industrialise animals and eat meat .

Maybe you should read the web link you posted Caduceus . Even the title says what i say .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

CM, look at the title of your homepage. Lots of Red meat.

Right, we can discuss pork and poultry separately.

What IS necessary? How do you define necessary?

Necessary for optimal functioning of the organism, on all levels.

What is the *unhealthy aspect* of milk?

I'll let some of the vegans answer that question. It's not a big issue to me and I'd rather spend my time on other issues.

 

[restin]

Necessary for optimal functioning of the organism, on all levels.

But this is very individual. If you give milk to an asian, he will get poison as he doesn't have the enzyme to break milk down. Optimal food of a bodybuilder is not optimal food for you. It all depends. Indian food is too spicy for me but optimal for indians. You can't tell.

Saturated fats in the amount that is present in e.g. fast food is really dangerous. Which doesn't make it dangerous on a large scale.

 

[GOD]

"That says nothing about what foods are healthy and which are not."

Point one . Food by definition is healthy . Point two . I didnt say it does ? I said that because vegans argue that humans are not natural meat eaters .

Back to rational arguments . Is it the animal products that are unhealthy or is it decadence ? How unhealthy are they ? What is more unhealthy / dangerous ? How healthy and how unhealthy are animal products ? ( = a comparative list of the benefits and dangers of everything we eat and do ) .

It would help if we got away from blind hippy esoteric propoganda .

Hitler was a vegetarian.......

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

But this is very individual.

Some things aren't individual. Your need for a daily intake of vitamin C is not individual, it is shared with the entire human race. Your response to strychnine is also not unique.

Point one . Food by definition is healthy .

You're nitpicking.

How unhealthy are they ? What is more unhealthy / dangerous ?

I've made a start by pointing out haem and saturated fats. I could continue with their lack of fibre, the way they are prepared for human consumption, and many other ways to look at it. Don't call me a blind hippy before this discussion is over please. It just started, and so far I've provided at least some links to scientific research to back my claims up.

 

[restin]

Your need for a daily intake of vitamin C is not individual, it is shared with the entire human race. Your response to strychnine is also not unique.

Yes. But I know someone who has eaten extremely many fruits and got an allergic reaction in the end. Too much vitamin C is not good either. That's the point. Same goes for fat. Look at how many people have eaten too much fats and suffer now.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Yes. But I know someone who has eaten extremely many fruits and got an allergic reaction in the end. Too much vitamin C is not good either. That's the point. Same goes for fat. Look at how many people have eaten too much fats and suffer now.

We're trying to get a general idea as to which foo... I mean elements nourish and which harm the human body.

From what I've read so far the healthiest diet consists of fruits, vegetables, nuts, grains, legumes, fermented dairy, eggs, and fish. In other words, I'm not defending vegetarianism here.

A body builder can get all his protein from whey protein, eggs and fish. There are even vegan body builders.

 

[GOD]

Are you having a bad day ?

I didnt call you a hippy . You have proven nothing . You arent reading what i`m saying .

"Some things aren't individual. Your need for a daily intake of vitamin C is not individual, it is shared with the entire human race. Your response to strychnine is also not unique. "

Every single person on the planet has an individual need for vitamin C and every persons response to strychnine is diferent . So is the lethal dose .

"Don't call me a blind hippy before this discussion is over please"

Its been over since you and others stoped being objective .

" the way they are prepared for human consumption,"

Thank you . So its not meat its the preparation . That was covered when i talked about decadence .

The scientific research you have quoted proves what i say and not what you say .

The things you are all talking about are civilisations sicknesses = decadence and greed . People who live outside the western world dont get them .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The illnesses you are all talking about dont apear in cultures that hunt , dont industrialise animals and eat meat .

Could be, but we're talking about the culture we're living in today.

Is it the meat ? or the dose ? Or the condition of the meat ? Or decadence ?

No doubt the "dose" and other factors play a role here.

 

[GOD]

"we're talking about the culture we're living in today. "

The theme is about vegetarianism and veganism . Not about the culture we live in .

All the studys you quote were done in decadent cultrures . I f they were done in the amazon basin with natural living people or with the bush men in africa they would show something else .

I`m dropping out of this thread untill someone says something sensible and / or objective and / or rational to say .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

So, if I understand you right, for you it's a matter of decadence. You wouldn't be willing to prove that meat is healthy, because that's not your point, but you could prove that it's just decadence which makes any diet unhealthy, right? Then please go ahead, proove it!

 

[Jahvisions]

I agree with GOD, it's all relative.

About haem, without it you can't even transport oxygen. Just as with breathing oxygen also create oxygen radicals that are very reactive molecules, that can cause mutatations an so cancer.

About the animal products, you don't need meat if you follow a good diet, but for vegans, 'animal products' are the only 'natural' way of getting vit B12.

 

[Brugmansia]

My food consists of fruits (green apples), banana's in moderation due to the sugar, bread and pasta's, nuts, quark, eggs and fish. And 2 days a week chicken. Red meat is purely a choice for taste. Once a week. Drinking sufficient water, 3 liters a day.

I never consume milk, pork, alcohol or non-pure chocolate, soft drinks, and anything else that contains too much sugars.

Good fats such as Omega 3 are an excellent fuel source, and have a positive influence on many hormones. Nuts, fish oil, whole eggs (max 2 a day) are very healthy to the cardiovasculair system.

And due to their fuel properties, one can decrease his carbohydrate intake also a bit more. Carbohydrates and sugars stimulate insuline, which means a bigger appetite. That's why fat people tend to become even fatter. And once it's getting out of hand and hopelessy try to stop eating, their insuline levels get screwed and the body's metabolism slows down while the stored surplus of energy remains on their body.

Not just too much saturate fat is dangerous, a surplus of calories from carbohydrates and sugars may be even worse.

Complex carbohydrates for someone's energy, should be obtained from bread, rice, potato's or pasta's.

 

[ODB]

About the animal products, you don't need meat if you follow a good diet, but for vegans, 'animal products' are the only 'natural' way of getting vit B12.

Wrong. you can get everything you need as vegan. B-12 ya say? how about getting it from Methylcobalamin?

The RDA for adults for vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily (1). About 2 rounded teaspoons of large flake Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional yeast provides the recommended amount of vitamin B12 for adults (2). A number of the recipes in this book contain nutritional yeast.

Any other brain busters for us vegans? seriously why do you argue with people trying to tell you how to live a much more healthy lifestyle? Its like trying to rid a junkie of their habit.