think you see in 3d?

[ararat]

so, how does objectivism handle quantum physics? it doesn't sound very compatible.

 

[waygie]

....what?

how does hedonism handle quantum mechanics? howabout being nice? lol
they aren't even in the same context. that makes no sense

 

[ararat]

Objectivism holds that reality exists independent of consciousness, that man has direct contact with reality through sense perception, that one can attain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation and inductive and deductive logic [...]

nevermind the happiness part.

 

[EndlessEntity]

Read Anthem first im telling you
its alot shorter than fountainhead and WAYYY shorter and more to the point than Atlas Shrugged.
which is amazing but Anthem is what i'd start with if i was u
if you are interested in objectivism...
Anyone who criticizes Ayn Rand Probably isnt grasping any of her concepts.

 

[ararat]

yeah, I'll put it in the book queue. the name Ayn Rand popped up quite often in the last weeks, which always seems a good sign to get into the stuff. (as was the case with David Hawkins, Alan Watts, Eckart Tolle etc.)

the basic premise that "reality exists independent of consciousness" just doesn't fit my worldview at all right now. objectivity seems like a mere mentation, with no ground in reality. the only objective thing you can say is that everything is radically subjective, no matter which instrument you use, which mentations you apply or how intelligent/clear minded the person is etc.

but well, I haven't read anything about her except a small introduction on wikipedia.

 

[waygie]

so if I don't agree with her then I'm just not graspng her concepts? lol

you're not really focused on what I said, but rather, that I disagreed. most of objectivity (the part that is spent convincing the rest if the world that people have a right to be better than them) is irrelevant to me. I already said what was and no one attempted refuting it

I'll read anthem but I'm pretty sure I already know what objectivity is (the fact that it ends with a 'selfish virtue' sounds enough like my productive hedonism to know they're the same)

 

[waygie]

the basic premise that "reality exists independent of consciousness" just doesn't fit my worldview at all .

I don't get how you can disagree with that. then what does consciousness (subjectively) percieve? there has to be something (reality) for us to percieve it

 

[ophiuchus]

"so, how does objectivism handle quantum physics? it doesn't sound very compatible."

waygie, of course they are relevant.

"the state of a system cannot be known without measurement, and measurement alters the system."

ill give you a hint, that's not a quote from me. ever heard of the 'double slit experiment' ?

 

[Brugmansia]

I wonder what this topic would be like if I open it on purpose and read it while peaking on a San Pedro/P. Cubensis concoction. Tastes like custard most likely. :wink:

 

[IJesusChrist]

I've recently been talking to mama about determinism versus indeterminism and spiritualism.

I've come to some striking conclusions (for me they are huge, I think most of you have always had this headspace);

Science is the study and implementation of predictability, however the predictability always has a margin of error - a "+/-" after all predictions or measurements. We attempt to consistently predict the outcomes of our actions on a day to day basis, and most of what we are used to doing - walking, driving, talking, writing, looking, perceiving, all have such a low margin of error that we can do them without taking into account that every step, turn, word, glance, or so on, has a small chance of being distinctly wrong from what we are used to.

This is the product of the "messy" and chaotic nature of the universe we live in - the universe perpetually becomes more chaotic. This is one of the greatest laws of science, but basically points out that science will never be able to measure perfectly. Beyond that, we hit this giant road block in "real" science when we came across quantum mechanics - we no longer had the ability to make ever increasingly more accurate predictions and measurements. Science hit a wall of precision and accuracy.

No longer was it possible to predict a hurricane absolutely, no longer was it possible to predict all. Chaos theory was a problem, but quantum mechanics shut the door.

What I used to get out of this is quantum mechanics is wrong - the quantum mechanics is just some mis-interpretation of how we can predict reactions to out actions. But I have digressed from this path;

I now am seeing that reality is consistently changing direction - constantly on an unknown path to us - impossible to predict. These probabilities of the future compound on one another to create real impossibilities.

My mama believes in tarot cards. I don't.
She believes in talking to the after life. I don't.

But steadily I am seeing that my perceptions of the universe have been faltered by the very foundation in which the majority of my ideologies have been constructed upon: Science.

The more I glimpse the big picture, the more I see a whirl of unknowns. A great force of uncertainty destroying our confidence pertaining to all-knowledge. We are being humbled by the more we know, rather than gloating.

I can hear a mouse in my wall and it's bugging me... byebye

 

[Brugmansia]

Nice piece of text.

 

[waygie]

the error of margin increases as the complexity of the action/experiment does. it would be by a mistake in the person making the action/doing the experiment. there is a reason for the mistakes (which would be a part of the greater equation resulting in the mistake) they don't come about arbitrarily


there may be a roadblock in quantum mechanics but it's one that we'll overcome

 

[IJesusChrist]

the error of margin increases as the complexity of the action/experiment does. it would be by a mistake in the person making the action/doing the experiment. there is a reason for the mistakes (which would be a part of the greater equation resulting in the mistake) they don't come about arbitrarily


there may be a roadblock in quantum mechanics but it's one that we'll overcome

You don't understand this very well do you waygie...?

When you realize the cat is both dead and alive you will understand. When you realize that you can never, ever make an absolute prediction (EVER!!!!!!!!!!!) then maybe you'll understand, yeah?

 

[waygie]

when you realize that simple logic says that something cannot be both dead and alive you will understand. when you stop becoming pompous enough to think that something is everything (rather than having the *possibility* of being anything) just because you cant see it you will understand

 

[ararat]

:lol:
sometimes I think your account is a parody on common sense and ego functions.

 

[waygie]

and me making a prediction has nothing to do with it
the fact is it is, or isn't something
not both

 

[EndlessEntity]

potential exists in reality?

 

[IJesusChrist]

Waygie, I'd like you to argue that to the entire quantum chemistry field... or the computational chemistry field.

It is you, who has no studies in this field, versus the tens (hundreds) of thousands of us... Not to say sticking up for what you believe in is wrong, but you are in no place to make these statements. I doubt you even understand the uncertainty principle at all, much less schrodingers cat.

Once you get there, start to explain to me quantum entanglement...

 

[ararat]

there's a dating site for people who like atlas shrugged and foutainhead :lol:
http://www.theatlasphere.com/


IJC, on behalf of tarot, I don't think that there is much to believe in in that case. have you ever tried it? the cards are written in a way that they become some kind of written Rorschach test. at least that's so with my version of the crolweyan tarot. it's great stuff to reflect on emotional stuff and other things, the cards send you off in a direction you might not have thought about.
of course, you can't predict the future with those, but reading the cards you will change the future accordingly.
sometimes/often the cards that turned up fit the situation uncannily well, not only for me but also for friends. it greatly depends on how you do the things. people who got into a meditative mood and let doubts rest and drew the cards had pretty accurate results, in contrast to the ones whose mind goes off in every direction all the time and are skeptical to things that don't fit that good in the world view they got from out culture.

 

[IJesusChrist]

to me tarot cards usually end up in the hands of people with very strong communication skills, both verbal and non. Their ability to pertain the cards to people on a subconscious level is lovely, as such is my mother.