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GOD

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"Still I don't think a correction on a previously written statement is that strong."

What do you mean ? That we shouldnt get press reports corrected ? If we get them corrected then the press has less controle , becomes less believable . I see absolutly no reason why we should have anything to do with our worse enemys . I see no advantages only dissadvantages . = dont play the game to beat the game or we loose . It was playing their game that got us where we are in the first place .

If we agree on our written press releases we wouldnt have to correct them . Short , simple , to the point .

The info papers that i was sugesting would offer the facts of how and why the situation is as it is now . We would also need to offer alternatives . Show the social and financial benefits of our sugestions . Financial benefits of legalisation = taxes . The dissadvantages of whats happening now = amongst other things the enormous costs and futility of the war on drugs . Show whos realy paying and who is making the profits .
 

Forkbender

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^No, that's not what I mean. I think we should get them to correct themselves, but I have my doubts if these corrections will have as big an influence on the mass public as the initial (wrong) message.

Another thing. If we want to fight lawsuits, we need to be official (in at least one country to have a legal base - I assume you don't want to do it on your personal notice). We need to be an association or a foundation or something, otherwise we cannot fight in court.
 

GOD

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"^No, that's not what I mean. I think we should get them to correct themselves, but I have my doubts if these corrections will have as big an influence on the mass public as the initial (wrong) message. "

If we dont talk to them we cant give them a wrong message . If they dont know whats going on they cant report about it . If they make false reports we cant do anything but ignore them or try to get them corrected .

The soliciter represents people with drug war problems and we raise money to finance it . He then takes those cases all the way to the top if needs be . If we need to fight law suits against the press then only if we are sure to win . We have to stard a club or foundation or charity or association . In germany it takes 6 people . I`ve done it with a friend and all the people who signed were volunteers who were untouchable and who had nothing to say . Just names on a piece of paper who had associated themselves with our ideas . They could be the owners of the web site to . Anonymous names with no profile . It could be some of us , who cares . Just that those people dont talk to anyone about it , especialy not the press . That it leads no one anywhere .


We would have to do that anyway to get permission to have events / demos .
 

BrainEater

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yeah that's a good idea i think ... somehow something needs to be done...

i agree that if actions are started without having thought through them entirely, can go wrong and other parties would benefit...

that's why any actions should be thinked over about well....

But also we shouldn't let ourselves be intimidated by anything they say, because sometimes that's their strategy...


well i think "they" is the hostile group which forms out of random press people, active people in public, official government people and industry people all with the intention to put our great idea down...

so we really shouldn't be scared of them, however be well prepared if they begin to fuck with us.

because we got to know that we commit ourselves to somethin what we think is good and they probably think the same, but lacking the overview of the big picture....


i guess there are many people to collaborate with, too... we just got to find the right people, etc.

i suppose you know why it's important to have allies.



i think we shouldn't see it as a war against the war against drugs or somethin.... well in fact it probably is that, but it's about more than just the drugs.... freedom, decide for yourself, information spreading and education on the subject, etc....


peace.
 

Forkbender

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BrainEater a dit:
i think we shouldn't see it as a war against the war against drugs or somethin.... well in fact it probably is that, but it's about more than just the drugs.... freedom, decide for yourself, information spreading and education on the subject, etc....

It's not a war, because then we are still fighting. We should be the 'party of love' not war. Fighting against a war is something entirely different from being for peace.
 

GOD

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Bingo . Dont fight against them = playing the game to win the game = loose the game . Lets just do our thing and win .
 

BrainEater

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Thanks Fork and GOD for pointing out what i wanted to say :mrgreen:
 

GOD

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The "Science & Legality Database" seems to me to have died . No ideas and nothing is happening . So i think its time to open it up to the rest of the members on the forum , after cleaning it up a bit . I dont think its fair if the bits where we talked about who should take part are left in for example . I dont want to hurt anyone or talk behind peoples backs .
 

Forkbender

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How can we be sure something's happening? We must ask the right questions, do the right things. The big strategy is good to have in the back of your head, but sometimes can obscure the 'What can I do right here right now?' question. Maybe opening things up can help rekindle the fire, but in order to succeed we need clarity about what needs to be done.
 

GOD

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A big startegy is made up of small parts , all should fit together in a complimentry / holistic way . We neeed both a big strategy and the small parts that make it or we are just walking blindly in the dark / pissing against the wind . So first the big strategy and then "what can i do ? " .

Lets talk about it then .

This is what i thought would happen . I thought first we would all talk about why nothing we had done had worked . Then what can we do with a realistic chance . Then ........DO IT !!!!!

I made some sugestions and then everything went very quiet . I expected people to point holes out in my sugestions . Better / refein some of them . Make other sugestions . Come up with alternative reasons and strategys . That we talk about it and then decide if and what we would do .

I spent about 20 years thinking out what i said and how to get it across . At first when i talked about it and when i sugested it there was big interest and then .......... silence . Its easy to do , it just needs less than ten people to decide to do it and then get on with it . I told you , most of it was done at an event i was involved in but that ego and greeed spoiled it . That fucked my head up for years . Because of my situation i cant do it on my own or i would because its easy . I had the ideas and offered a strategy . = i can tell people why they should shit . How to shit . Where to shit . But i`m not able to shit for them and i`m not going to wipe their arses for them . As i said theres no silver one size fits all bullet . We need to talk first and then DO IT . I´ve been waiting for the talking and refining . Then when we agree that we cant see a better strategy and decide to do it / something we can decide where , and where to start . I`ve allready got that clear in my head but i wanted you all to become equal parts of it and not just hang around waiting for daddy to tell you when and where to start . I`m not here to give orders or be the boss .

If that doesnt bring any results i will lay it out like a trail of bread crumbs . But then its me , it becomes a personality thing . A me or the others thing . A yes we will do what you want or no we wont do what you want . A love him or kill him thing . A chance that a good idea , a good strategy gets weighed up against my personality and some peoples problems with it and clashes with theirs . I am not fucking jesus , kennedy , kennedy , ghandi or obama .
 

Forkbender

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I just erased a huge post I typed. :x

I'll try again tomorrow.
 

GOD

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Ha ! Ha ! Ha ! Shit !!! Maybe that was the post that would have saved the whole universe and now because it got lost you are alll DOOMED............

I got so used to writing replys in the reply box and then the fucking site software shiting out and me having to re-log on and loosing it so i started writting it in editor first and then copying it into the reply box .
 

Forkbender

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Alas, it was my own mistake as I tried to scroll up and accidently pushed one of the hyperlinks in my browser. :roll:

Attempt #2.

Things I've tried:

Together with some others I set up a foundation aimed at furthering research into psychedelics and the psychedelic experience (http://www.stichtingopen.nl, there's an english equivalent of most sections). We organize talks by researchers in this field, for example Jeremy Narby, who gave a talk about his ayahuasca research for about 150 students, and Valerie Mojeiko of MAPS who talked about the MAPS sponsored research of psychedelics in end-of-life anxiety patients and how they went about to do this. The talks were a big success, but I had the impression that only those people came who were already interested in the subject. Our next lecture will be on ibogaine in the treatment of addiction and I hope that more people who don't have any idea about psychedelics will come, just to spark some enthusiasm or have a good debate about both our and their misconceptions about drugs. We plan on inviting some people who have their jobs in the regular addiction-treatment facilities in Amsterdam to argue about whether or not iboga could be helpful. We are supported by some of the big names in the field, and a lot of people think we are doing a good thing, but from being close to the action I've noticed not a lot of things are going on.

Things that failed:

The foundation exists for 1 year now. We have managed to do a lot, but mainly we've been preaching to the choir, as it is hard to attract people with no genuine interest in the subject to our lectures. There has been no research that we could either help or fund as we currently don't have any money. It is very hard to do shit on your own and most of our peers are more interested in their own personal development than actually helping us gain knowledge about drugs and spreading clear information. We are trying to set up a database of all psychedelic research but find it is very hard to organize and evaluate all this material. Some material can be found very easily, other promising articles were published in obscure journals that no university holds in their collection. There is a huge academic taboo on psychedelics, and even those professors that support our cause are hesitant to be on something like a board of recommendation (very useful for getting funding). I am frustrated by how hard it is to get things done and have come to realize that it is partly because we are only working on one part of the problem. There are still bigger problems, mainly those concerned with the druglaws that withhold us from achieving better results. Science is dictated by the law, censured by it and this is a bad thing, especially if people hurt themselves and others because they don't know anything about these substances.

About GOD's strategy:

I think part of why it has been so silent is because you have a lot of experience (more than most of us) and thought about it for about as long as most people here have conscious memories off. It is hard to see the things you have forgotten, because we weren't there from day one.

That being said, there are of course ways to refine this strategy. The education part is really important, because ultimately we need to change public opinion about drugs. Well, not exactly change the opinion as show how their opinion is shaped by propaganda, offer clear and balanced information and let them change their own opinion without interfering. I think another valuable addition would be for psychonauts to sign up at the organizations that provide drug information to teens. I had this guy from the police who basically told us that heroin is bad and therefore all drugs are bad, so nobody believed him. If we can show real results and speak from experience, we can reach these kids easily and possibly save lifes. I think schools are willing to cooperate on this one (at least here in the Netherlands they are), because they see that the current strategy doesn't prevent people from trying drugs and our alternative would reduce a lot of harm. Information should be clear, concise, true and well written. Anything that sounds like hippyshit or even the exact opposite of the current drugpropaganda is doomed to fail.

I like the idea of a festival, but it has to be organized locally. Right now we are spread all over Western Europe (right? or are there any North-Americans here?), which makes it hard to get things together. I am sure I can find some people here who are willing to help. We have this legalize movement that is basically a lot of hippies smoking weed in the streets once a year, but I think they would be interested in being part of our strategy once we convince them that there is more at stake and they should focus on law/education as well. I know some people there, so I can ask around. This should be done by everyone here, so we cover at least some countries and can inspire others in other countries to do the same.

Demonstrations can be good if they are fun to go to. Otherwise you just get a bunch of anarchists and cryptocommunists that are against everything and take 'action' (=do nothing) for a living. So I agree with GOD.

I am very interested in the way laws work and how we can turn things around. The legal strategy is something that needs thinking about, as right now we just hire some big law firm to handle cases, but we need to combine this with lobbying. We need to see what we are up against, namely big Pharmaceutical Companies (who have money like water, have managed to shape public opinion for decades and don't want cheap alternatives for their expensive 'medicines') and a holier-than-thou-morality in politics that prevents fringe ideas to enter the mainstream. We need to turn things around and let them play by our rules. Collective action is the way to go and I am currently looking at strategies to achieve change collectively. We have to study history and why the current laws are in effect. We have to study how laws can be changed, how we can show that the laws don't change a thing in the real world except make things harder for any civilian.

Civil disobedience can be very effective. But this requires some people to take a hit for the team. The first 100 people who take acid in front of a policeman might be arrested. If we organize a festival or something we should be careful that nobody overdoes it and dies or hurts himself or others, so there is no reason for the police to crack us down. We have to have a drug emergency team that knows their shit and can help in case of both psychological and physiological crises. If you attract unexperienced people to a festival like this, it can backfire if you don't take precautions.[/url]
 

GOD

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Wow !!! Halleluja !!!!! We are on exactly the same wavelength .

Finaly someone said something that revitalised my brain . A light just got turned on in the darkness .

I will reply soon . I dont think about things i just tell my brain what i want , consciously ignore the problem and watch TV , then later my subconscious starts spitting ideas out . So i shall now go and watch housewife shit on TV .


What do all of you think ? Come on say something . Dont be afraid to say the wrong thing , there are no wrong ideas in brain storming . All ideas lead to others . If you have nothing else to say at the moment take your time its not a race . Maybe you just want to say lets do it or i want to help where i can or i`ll make god a sandwich................
 

Forkbender

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Maybe they forgot about it/didn't subscribe to the thread. So it might be a good idea to open it for everybody (registered users with at least an x amount of posts that make sense (60? 100?)) Not for creating an elite, but just to make sure no sickos get in.
 

GOD

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The whole section is dead . What about cleaning it up and opening it up to all members ?
 

Caduceus Mercurius

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My personal situation is a little different from what it has been in the past year. I have more time to do things.

I'm torn apart by conflicting desires though. I must make choices as to what I do with my time and how I want to live my life. I feel more passionately about setting up a single place where people can get the real deal as far as having a psychedelic experience is concerned, than to fight drug laws so people can continue their careless recreational usage (and continue to get themselves or others hurt and mentally messed-up).

I'd rather learn how to work with these compounds in therapeutic or ego-death aimed sessions, as a continuation of past underground therapy and research. Not all research need be government sanctioned.

There are two psychonauts on this forum (magicmummu and mysticwarrior) who are enthusiastic about squatting a farmhouse, and I have contacted a few local squatters. To the outside it would be represented as a meditation and therapy center, and most of the time there will of course be drug-free intake conversations, counseling, lectures and meditations. The entheogenic experience occurs discreetly, after careful selection and preparation.

There will be no goa parties organized in or around the building, and no illegal substances cultivated or synthesized.

In the building we could work on websites and publications. If you want people to work on a project, you must first of all get them together. Unless you get a place to gather, everyone will get distracted by forum discussions, video games and TV.
 
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