Suicide

[BrainEater]

woah what a story dazed!!! we're glad too that you didn't succeed !!!

IJC have you heard of that pharaoh whose mummy some archeologists found and a deathly fungus which probably was nurturing what was left of the pharaoh so to say and which left most of the archeologists dead?? no idea why i am coming up with that now actually, but well...

 

[st.bot.32]

I always get somewhat irked when people claim suicide is 'selfish'. Perhaps it can be 'selfish' in certain cases, but does anyone really know the complete circumstances another person is in? If you were in their shoes, experiencing their reality tunnel, how would you fare? It might be an eye-opener.

I personally think that if you haven't been through a long period of serious extended depression (think like several years or more) then you simply have no idea what it is like to be that down. If you've never tasted normality and happiness you may not even realize it actually exists. The hardest part in convincing someone who is that down, is that things actually WILL get better, because they genuinely feel helpless and trapped.

Factors in suicide: mental problems, ignorance (as in lack of knowledge, and you can't blame people who don't have guidance or anywhere to turn for being ignorant) or feeling completely helpless etc. Don't forget, some people actually are really helpless and trapped. Imagine any of these circumstances: abusive household, been raped as a child, have a mixture of depression and schizophrenia, imagine having a bajillion sexual issues, living in a conservative community with no apparent escape and no real friends about and nowhere to turn. etc etc. there's a million factors.

A few people I know have been affected by suicide, probably all preventable if people were a bit more educated on the warning signs of suicide (most tend to sleep through that segment of high school health classes), and none of it I would consider selfish. That's making a sweeping judgment call as if one is completely privy to anothers' perspective, and that I don't feel can be done. OK I'm off the soap box now

 

[Forkbender]

Fair enough, st.bot. But you talk about selfish as if it is a bad thing. It is a protection mechanism. I just think protecting yourself by killing yourself isn't the right kind of selfishness. In the case of traumatic experiences, people can get anxious and depressed if they don't consider themselves strong enough to deal with these experiences. Suicide is not dealing with the problem and running away from it, usually for an understandable reason. That's why all suicides are 'preventable'. When people cannot take it anymore and decide to pull the plug, they decide because they feel smaller than the problem they have and sometimes even project this problem on infinity. To cut off the feeling through suicide (or addiction or basically any other mental or physical disorder), one decides that the self is not going to be okay with aggression/oppression from the outside world and that it needs to end immediately. It is an attempt at extracting the self from the world. I consider that selfish, i.e. focused on the self/ego instead of the world.

I feel compassion for people who find themselves in such a situation and I think that they can be saved at all times by just recognizing them, paying close attention to them, help them, nurture them and let them do the healing / growing. Easier said than done, but still true.

 

[st.bot.32]

Right, in that context i totally see what you mean and agree. It is absolutely a defensive mechanism gone berserk. when you feel that the pain of death is less than the perceived pain of staying alive. Thanks for explaining. In that sense we are all selfish to some degree or another at some point. Perhaps you could call it selfishness from ignorance, or being unknowingly selfish, not a value judgment on their character. I say that because many people in that situation feel they have nowhere to turn and don't know how to deal with their problems. Likewise I can personally relate to what you are saying. When I went through a long period of depression, I did have reasons to be depressed (loss of community, complete and utter change of belief system, other things) but at some points I was indeed my own worst enemy as I did not know how to fix the situation I was in and did not know where to turn.

The worst part about being seriously down is the dramatic change in perception of time. Every moment of being alive is physically grating and emotionally taxing. An hour feels like a day. Each day can feel like an eternity. A month is a collection of aeons. Coming out of darkness takes serious patience, time, work, self analysis, and yes very much opening up to the world around you. The best thing I did in that period was get off my duff and start helping other people, getting my mind off myself, trying to actually have a bit of fun now and then. I'm glad I never took the easy way out. I would not blame someone else for going through what I personally experienced and losing it. We live, we learn.

I responded the way i did just because I'm used to hearing that word used to belittle, usually by clap-happy people who don't have a clue.. when i hear it used in a belittling way I tend to think those kind of people are reacting defensively, they don't want to acknowledge that there is some real genuine darkness in this world because it would infringe on their cozy bubbles. You can usually tell pretty quickly, those who have seen the edge and come back from those who have never really been there or never come back. The experience teaches certain things, like empathy.

 

[atypical]

thank you so much for this thread
i am almost crying now reliving my experience "of being at the edge" as you succinctly put it st.
it is morbidly beautiful how well i understand this and will keep this mind as i continue my efforts
to live better, happier and more successfully.
id send you a nice free e-toke but sadly technology isnt that advanced yet. msg me when it is.

 

[Psychoid]

Fork, that was my point, who am I?! Who am 'ME' to do anything that hurts others?! Why should I if I destroy life?!

You completely missed what I was saying according to your response!!

Inferiority complex?

 

[Brugmansia]

Suppose I grew up in too much of a sheltered cradle to "get" what autophonomania truly is, but this thread contains thoughts which are certainly educative.

 

[IJesusChrist]

@Fork:
Maybe this question will show you what I mean? I don't know how you aren't seeing it;

Would you end your life if more people benefited from the act?

That would be a hard question to answer, but by answering you have to see my point.

Next, DaZeD - that is a miraculous story, I really do wonder what you were thinking, and not insulting your stream of thought then - I really wonder.

My first encounter with suicide I was in the 5th grade. I wasn't actually contemplating taking action - but I did wonder about actually doing it. I became well 7th grade. Junior year of highschool it came back, and of course much stronger, but was due to psychadelic use. If I would have had a gun, I would have ended my life that night - there is no question. It never occured to me to hang myself.

I want to make a few points, and if you don't understand what I'm saying it probably doesn't matter.

For ANYONE to contemplate suicide immidiately it must be realized that this person is not in a mentally healthy condition. We are not intelligent enough to understand suicide, so to consider it an option is immidiately showing an irrational state of mind. I have seen very little people who have a right to take their own life - an intelligent and unemotional arguement for their own death. Of course, one must ask, if a person is not in a vegetative state, and completely responsive and without chronic pain - why can this person not make their life beneficial enough to offset their benefit of death? Again, there must be some mental instabilities or immaturaties.

Life to me is something so bizarre, and simply by saying that produces intense feelings of awe.

I can't seem to make a valid arguement for suicide anymore. I just hate the fact that by existing, I am destroying life. No matter what I do - I will consistintly destroy life.

I will say this though - Suicide is never the answer, if serotonin is your baseline.

 

[DaZeD]

What i was thinking huh?
I still wonder what i was thinking back then. :?

Like i said i was severly depressed for a long time, and to make things worse i took XTC the night before, so the day after i felt even more like shit then i already felt, i had a fight with my girlfriend that day too, so i went to my dads shack to cool down, (we were sleeping there cause he wasn't home for a week and he asked me to take care of the house, a bit ironic).

Then all i remember is that i was kinda on automatic pilot, i spotted an electric cable, i hanged the cable over the beam, made a gibbet out of it, took a footstool, put the cable around my neck and decided to step off, i think that i thought i could step back up anytime, but that wasn't the case, the moment the gallow strapped around my neck i couldn't do anything but hanging there, it all happened so fast, i remember that i watched my feet shake, and then i was out.

There's no need to tell me how stupid i was back then, i know that with all my heart, i'm still mad at myself everytime i think about it, it's been a long time now, but i won't ever forget it.It was the dumbest thing i ever did in my life, and i did plenty of stupid things. :|

Luckily my girlfriend decided to look for me and found that big scissor, when she saw me she thought i was already dead and panicked, first she tried to lift me but she couldn't, then she cut me loose and i smacked to the floor, when i woke up i couldn't even stand on my feet, and my left cheek was numb for over a week, i wonder how much braindamage i got from that experience.

But i now know for sure that many people acted very impulsive when they decided to jump, pull the trigger, or hang themselves.I'm lucky that i'm still able to tell this.


Like you said, with a gun you'd probably wouldn't be here, i'm so lucky i don't own a gun, i'ts so easy to get to the point of putting the gun to your head, then it's just a matter of putting some force on the trigger, and it's done.

It can happen so quick, and not always with the right reason.
The human mind is soooo fragile...

 

[Forkbender]

[youtube]IHWeuQyFouo[/youtube]

@IJC,

I know what you mean.

I just hate the fact that by existing, I am destroying life. No matter what I do - I will consistintly destroy life.

I like the way the Native Americans look at the animals and plants they eat. An attitude of gratitude helps a lot.

 

[Psychoid]

Would you end your life if more people benefited from the act?

This is a very interesting question, very different, in my point of view, from what you were saying before. You are probably thinking about people who have no autonomy, and therefore are a burden to their surrounding, aren't you? I don't know what to think for now, but it is indeed a very interesting question.
First, such a person can't take the decision without talking about it with the people that are taking care of him/her. I think if they prefer to keep taking care of him/her rather than letting him die and be free from the burden because they love him/her, he/she shouldn't suicide. If everyone agrees that it would be preferable to let him/her go, then maybe suicide could be an option... but I'm still not sure...

But when you say that by living you destroy life... beh, it's the basic rule of life, no one can run away from it. If you throw a rock on the ground you probably kill thousands of microscopic lifeforms, when you eat you are eating plants or animal corpses, which were alive before... The time of your death will come too one day and you will be giving it back by feeding other life., which will feed other life, which will feed other life, etc...

Why do you see death as something negative? The natural death is beautiful in a certain way.

 

[Forkbender]

people who have no autonomy

I would distinguish suicide from euthanasia.

 

[Psychoid]

What about people with strong schizophrenia, autism or similar mental illnesses which prevent you from taking care of yourself or even may put yourself or others in danger if they are not taken care of? Or people with no arms? That kind of thing...

This is not euthanasia.

 

[Forkbender]

But when you say that by living you destroy life... beh, it's the basic rule of life, no one can run away from it. If you throw a rock on the ground you probably kill thousands of microscopic lifeforms, when you eat you are eating plants or animal corpses, which were alive before... The time of your death will come too one day and you will be giving it back by feeding other life., which will feed other life, which will feed other life, etc...

yes. Biomass is actually growing because of the absorption of matter. It is becoming more alive by living the way it does.

What if there was no death?

 

[Forkbender]

What about people with strong schizophrenia, autism or similar mental illnesses which prevent you from taking care of yourself or even may put yourself or others in danger if they are not taken care of? Or people with no arms? That kind of thing...

This is not euthanasia.

How exactly do they prevent you from taking care of yourself?

I meant the difference between the painfully terminately ill and the person ending his or her life because of mental imbalance. I thought you meant that too.

 

[Psychoid]

How exactly do they prevent you from taking care of yourself?

That's another good question ^^
I don't suffer from any of these illnesses, and none of the people close to me either.
But I've been to a place where a guy was taking care of like 15 people with that kind of mental illnesses. These people ended there either because their family didn't want to take care of them anymore, because it was taking too much of their time, either because by themselves they would act in ways that were dangerous for themselves or others (those were generally brought there by the police). By seeing them it felt obvious to me that there's no way they could live by themselves, without help. I don't know if it was the illness or the heavy medication they were on though...

 

[Forkbender]

and what has that to do with suicide?

sorry, seems I really don´t get what people talk about here.

 

[Psychoid]

Would you end your life if more people benefited from the act?

 

[IJesusChrist]

The consumption of life IS the rule of life itself, I see this, but now that I see this, it pains me. All life is beautiful, but who am I to judge that I am more beneficial to the overall scheme of the universe by continueing my existance, thusly destroying other's?

It dawned on my while I was very sick that there can be no 'ultimate vegan', unless you were to kill yourself.

I just want people to see that there is ALWAYS two sides of the arguement - however, it is up to the user to weigh the outcomes.

I don't think anyone has ever killed themselves for the reason I am getting at though, unless they were REALLY deep, and probably not using serotonin.

...

Having said all this, and atleast one person sees my point, suicide is for the ignorant. And I don't mean to say the people who attempt are stupid, its just that they havn't seen that they can create purpose, which is by far the most powerful tool to the conscious man. (Or woman)

Fork, do you see my question now, you didn't respond.

 

[Forkbender]

I see. It´s just that you have used words totally different from the ones I would´ve used, so I had to work a bit to get it.