Psychonautica 74 - Stan Grof - psychospiritual death/rebirth

[maxfreakout]

In this episode of psychonautica, Max Freakout plays the first part of a day-long seminar by Stanislav Grof, from the world psychedelic forum, entitled 'psychospiritual death and rebirth, a visionary journey'. Grof talks about the meaning of the categories 'non-ordinary' and 'holotropic' states of conscious, Hindu philosophy and the Atman/Brahman union, the healing/transformative/evolutionary potential of holotropic states, the inadequacy of the behaviourist and psychoanalytic paradigms to explain holotropic states, the inadequacy of psychiatric classification of holotropic states as 'psychotic', spiritual crises, a comprehensive cartography of the psyche, the relevance of spirituality to holotropic states, the ontological reality of holotropic states, the original mystical message of christianity, the relation of astrology to altered states, the systematic correlation of historical events to planetary transits, the birth experience and psychopathology, the reception of psychedelics in psychiatry, the psychedelic death/rebirth experience, comparison of psychedelic drugs to the telescope, the connection of psychedelics to shamanism and mystery religion, non-rationality irrationality and trans-rationality, the development of the infant psyche, perinatal experience and the 4 basic perinatal matrices, dissolution of boundaries, transcendence of time and personal identity, the numinous aspect of the death/rebirth experience, mythic metaphor and the death/rebirth experience, ego death and ego dissolution, good-womb and bad-womb experiences. Email [email protected] and hang out with the friendly psychonauts at www.thegrowreport.com.

Playlist: J-Dilla - Lightworks


DOWNLOAD HERE:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/dopecast/ ... ica074.mp3

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Is this the one from Monday March 24? If so, I'm very happy you uploaded this, because that day we had to go home so I couldn't attend Stan's holotropic breathwork workshop. Downloading now...

 

[maxfreakout]

Is this the one from Monday March 24? If so, I'm very happy you uploaded this, because that day we had to go home so I couldn't attend Stan's holotropic breathwork workshop. Downloading now...

yes that's right it's the seminar from the Monday, i had no idea there was a holotropic breathing workshop though, this is a seminar, it goes on for hours so this will take a while to fully podcast

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I'm not sure it was a holotropic breathwork workshop. I just remember that I couldn't attend... I was in a holotropic state of mind that day though. :wink:

Max, did you notice I uploaded two more videos from the World Psychedelic Forum? A half hour from a lecture by Stan Grof, and the entire presentation about Erowid. You can find the links here. I especially like the Erowid talk (the Grof lecture wasn't recorded very well).

 

[maxfreakout]

i hadnt seen that thanx!

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Great episode Max, looking forward to the other parts! And thanks for mentioning our website.

Regarding astrology, when I arrived here in 2006 I was a very enthusiastic and more or less professional (Vedic) astrologer, and had begun to notice the "effect" transits have on the nature of my psychedelic experiences, as you can read in this trip report. This was years before I heard Stan Grof mention this phenomenon. I mainly looked at my Moon transits, and did a couple of trips specifically riding the waves of either Venus or Jupiter (which are benefic in nature), and avoiding those of Mars and Saturn (which are malefic in nature). I also was on the lookout for good Neptune, Uranus and Pluto transits, etc. One time I accidently dosed myself with BZP, which was very pleasurable and meaningful to me, and when I arrived home later and turned on my computer, I found out it had been during a very beneficial Pluto transit. I have also tried a high dose mushroom trip during a transit of the mysterious Ketu (the dragon's tail in Western astrology, and the moksha-karaka in Vedic astrology) but that was very, very intense. It was the time I thought the whole world had been destroyed by a nuclear war, that I was crying blood, and couldn't understand anymore what I had done (the concept "I ate mushrooms" meant nothing to me anymore) and what I was doing.

From direct experience I knew it was possible to practice astrology in such a way that it is real, not something you have to believe in. But if the astrological absolute links between birth, life and the orbits of the celestial bodies are real, this obviously has serious implications for the way we understand reality, and things like free will and predetermination, or the fractal nature of life. For me this (realizing astrological synchronicity is real, and experiencing this again, and again, and again) was as much of a paradigm shift as my experiences with psychedelics.

But there was a lot of criticism from certain 'rational' forum members, who were willing to challenge but not be challenged. And so I started writing less and less about this. But then when I was at the World Psychedelic Forum I suddenly heard the respected psychiatrist and LSD researcher Stan Grof openly admit to believing the astrological transits have verifiable effects and in fact can be employed in the scheduling of psychedelic sessions, or getting a general idea what the experience will be like. I was amazed....

Max, in the podcast you mention that you are considering having someone do your chart, but if you really want to be amazed, you should study astrology yourself, become your own astrologer, and check your own transits.

You mentioned you noted down all the dates of your trips. If you want I can look at the transits of these trips, and let you know what archetypal energies were at play. I should perhaps stress here that psychedelic experiences clearly transcend astrological descriptions. Descriptions of the transits only convey the general mood.

 

[mysticwarrior]

Max, in the podcast you mention that you are considering having someone do your chart, but if you really want to be amazed, you should study astrology yourself, become your own astrologer, and check your own transits.

Because you talked about it on the forum, i started to research a little about astrology. To my surprise(always where to skeptic about that.), i saw how astrology did relate to MUCH more things then i ever could imagine.

BUT, i also realise that astrology isn't just a simple thing. There seem to be many different ways of interpreting. For example, you name vedic astrology, which is, i guess different then western astrology etc etc.

So i want to ask you, if you could tell us more about how to learn astrology. What path should one walk to learn it, without being misguided by mis-information? Do you recommend a special book? Or is a study astrology needed to learn it?

Yesterday i where in a esoteric bookstore, and saw a big book about vedic astrology. It was still wrapped in plastic, so i couldn't really take a look. Anyway, i would love to hear the basics and really want to learn how i can read charts of myself and others. Especially in relation to entheogen's

Greets,
Mysticwarrior.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

To learn transit astrology, you just need a good astrology program (200 to 400 euros) and two or three books.

I first learned Vedic astrology, and later learned some techniques from Western astrology. I find some of these techniques (like the transits) useful, but the basic method of calculation flawed. With Vedic astrology you can make astonishingly accurate predictions.

In 1996 I had my own chart read by an American Vedic astrologer (Robert Koch), and I learned a lot from listening to the 90 minute tape he sent me, and studying the print-outs of my chart. I also had some programs with which I could calculate charts, and one book, but I never really studied it systematically.

That happened in 2003, after my brother died, and I was eager to understand the birth charts of my two young children. And so I decided to do study Vedic astrology through http://www.dirah.org/. I went through the material very fast. The course would normally take one year or more, but I finished it all within one or two months, and my teacher said on several occasions I was one of his best students ever (which had already been predicted by the American astrologer). I received the Dirah International Diploma for Advanced Vedic Astrology, and started doing readings for friends and relatives.

If you want to learn Vedic astrology, I can recommend the books by James Braha. They are easy to understand and written in a nice way. A good book on planetary transits is Planets in Transit by Robert Hand.

I'm using the Kala program, but I think I should have bought Gorawani jyotish instead. Gorawani also provides excellent astrology courses.

Teehee, I remember I also wrote a Vedic astrology course myself, in Dutch: http://www.woerdengezond.nl/planeten.htm

PS: Anyone reading this, please don't ask me to do a reading for you. I don't do readings anymore, except when it's relevant for my own life.

 

[mysticwarrior]

Thank you very much! I already did read a little about astrology and also did try some software applications and read a little about the planets. But i never did go deep into it, till right now, i needed a little motivation i guess. But on my vacation last week, i read a book about hermetic texts. And recently I also did read some parts from the naq hammadi texts, and are fascinated by the many arrows that direct to astrology and many other subjects that i am obsessed with. It seems that astrology was far more important then i ever thought it would be. Clearly a key, to understand more about the knowledge of the ancients.

When i started a little research on astrology, i saw so many different views on the internet, that i realised that it must be full with pitfalls that a beginner will not notice. So thanks for this great post! It gives me the motivation to dig a little deeper. It where exactly the words i needed!

Greets,
Mystic.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Yes, there are many different systems of astrology, methods of calculation and interpretation, as well as differing views on related subjects like free will. In my course I learned a little about all of them, and developed my own style. You learn by experience and feedback which methods work and which don't.

The most important element I consider the starting point of the zodiac, and these differ significantly between Western and Vedic astrology. Also there are different ways to divide that zodiac (the house systems).

Vedic astrology seems to be the most ancient of them all, and by the grace of Soma or who knows what it seems those astrologers got it right, whereas later astrologers introduced several things which were unnecessary and ruined astrology in the West. The worst thing they did was introduce the tropical zodiac, so that everyone born after March 21 has the Sun in Aries, etc. The tropical zodiac doesn't take the precession of the equinoxes into consideration, a huge mistake (currently on March 21 the Sun can be seen against the backdrop of Pisces, and the change of sign occurs much later, around April 13). This is why modern Western astrologers are wrong most of the time, and astrology has lost its good reputation. In India they still use the sidereal zodiac, and astrologers are openly consulted by teachers, scholars, politicians etc.

But what I like about Western astrology that is currently missing in India are psychological interpretations, and consideration of the positions of Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. Vedic astrology tends to focus on rather mundane issues like luck, fortune, career, marriage, children, health etc.

So without going into all the details, yes, there's a lot of disagreement and diversity, similar to what you encounter when you try to find out what is a healthy diet or lifestyle.

 

[mysticwarrior]

So without going into all the details, yes, there's a lot of disagreement and diversity, similar to what you encounter when you try to find out what is a healthy diet or lifestyle.

:lol:

 

[mysticwarrior]

Max, something i noticed... You don't have your own website, do you?

 

[mysticwarrior]

I've downloaded Gorawani jyotish I still need to figure out a lot! But yesterday i read a lot about vedic astrology, so it already starts to makes more sense

 

[maxfreakout]

Max, something i noticed... You don't have your own website, do you?

no my podcast comes out on www.dopefiend.co.uk and i have a forum at www.thegrowreport.com

 

[maxfreakout]

You mentioned you noted down all the dates of your trips. If you want I can look at the transits of these trips, and let you know what archetypal energies were at play. I should perhaps stress here that psychedelic experiences clearly transcend astrological descriptions. Descriptions of the transits only convey the general mood.

i would be very grateful for that, does this involve knowing my birthdate also?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

i would be very grateful for that, does this involve knowing my birthdate also?

Yes, as well as the town, hour and minute of birth.

Just now I stumbled upon what seems to be a very interesting book for me:
Transpersonal Theory & the Astrological Mandala, An Evolutionary Model by Gerry Goddard.
You can read it online for free.

An excerpt from the introduction:

This book bridges two fields—transpersonal theory and archetypal astrology, two fields that I hope will eventually experience a more friendly and more synergistic relationship than they have experienced until now. My goal is to present an astro-transpersonal model of consciousness that will be of interest to readers from both the transpersonal and astrological communities. For transpersonalists who are open to seeing what the deep logic of astrology might have to offer the debate on evolutionary models of consciousness yet who lack any prior astrological knowledge, easily accessible information on the standard meanings and relations of the twelve principles is provided in a single brief chapter. For astrologers approaching this work with an interest in the deep logic of their subject and its interface with cultural and transpersonal studies, yet with perhaps only a sketchy familiarity with Jungian, humanistic, and transpersonal perspectives, the relevant ideas of transpersonalism are revealed as we go.

I have long had the conviction that astrology as expertly practiced is indeed more than the 'mere' play of human imagination on geometric patterns formed by insensate planets, but for the skeptical non-astrological reader not prepared to accept the objective validity of astrology, the indisputably subtle and sophisticated astrological twelve-fold mandala can be approached in its softer sense as a heuristic. So for the astrological agnostic, the door has been left open as to the question of astrology's objective 'validity'. As a work in transpersonal theory my concern is to present an integrative model of consciousness evolution that incorporates the main insights of certain major contemporary models while offering a possible reconciliation of some of their significant differences. As a work in astrology my concern is to articulate the twelve-fold astrological mandala in terms of such an evolutionary model so as to reveal the holistic interconnection of the various empirically revealed facets (the signs and houses) in a systematic way rigorously engaging contemporary transpersonal viewpoints beyond existing astrological processive narratives. For serious astrologers, this work provides a philosophical and cosmological foundation for astrological psychology, but rather than a purely abstract and essentially dissociated theory, it finds its fulfillment in the inspirational and living insights of astrological practice.

 

[mescalinedrabbit]

please can you translate the first text in french for me i am psychospiritual and interrested

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Max uploaded the second part of the seminar:

http://dopecast.libsyn.com/index.php?post_id=507553

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

And part 3: http://dopecast.libsyn.com/index.php?post_category=Psychonautica

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

You mentioned you noted down all the dates of your trips. If you want I can look at the transits of these trips, and let you know what archetypal energies were at play. I should perhaps stress here that psychedelic experiences clearly transcend astrological descriptions. Descriptions of the transits only convey the general mood.

i would be very grateful for that, does this involve knowing my birthdate also?

Yes, Max.

There were some questions about the astrological transits in another topic, which I think I will answer in this thread, as we've already been discussing the transits here.

Also eagerly waiting for the next part of the Stan Grof seminar...