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Psychonautica 71 - interview with Jan Irvin

maxfreakout

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In this episode of psychonautica Max Freakout interviews Jan Irvin, the host of the Gnostic media podcast and author of 'Astrotheology and shamanism' and 'The holy mushroom', Jan talks about the work of Jack Herer, the dispute between John Allegro and Gordon Wasson over the depiction of mushrooms in Christian artwork, the psychedelic origins of Judeo-christianity, Jonathan Ott's pharmacotheon, John Rush's website clinicalanthrolopology, mythological allusions to entheogens and entheogen-experiences, the origins of the Jesus story, the meaning of the word 'catholic', the similarity of Jesus to other mythic figures such as Mithra and Shiva, relation of christianity to fertility cults, the mushroom as a representation of phallus and yoni, the relation of the Caduceus symbol to medicine, the virgin birth of Jesus as a representation of the lifecycle of the mushroom, entheogenic use of Amanita mushrooms and its reliability for triggering religious experience, combining Amanita mushrooms with Psilocybe mushrooms, the natural variability in potency of natural entheogens, entheogen diminishment fallacies and the relative efficacy of entheogens compared to drug-free techniques such as meditation for triggering religious experience, ergonomic accessibility of religious experience and the phoney logic behind the war on drugs.

Playlist: Morphine - Swing it low

web links:
http://www.clinicalanthropology.com
http://www.gnosticmedia.com

DOWNLOAD HERE:
http://media.libsyn.com/media/dopecast/ ... ica071.mp3

keyhole.144.jpg
 

zezt

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Hey Max

was hoping you had some post of your latest podcast with Ralph Metzner. GREAT talk!! I was so onto it.

But am somewhat confused about your confusion regarding somethings he said---like when he was speaking about 'asking the psychedelic experience' a question---and your respond saying you have never experienced this, and you cant imagine a plant talkinEnglish.............. :D ...say what?? lol

I hope i am not seeming to make fun of you. Its just I dont get why you dont get what he means. If you dont I greatly admire your honesty. I dont like pretentious people when they claim to know stuff they dont

But here's is my take on what he means: Yes I am aware of mcKennas version of it, but remember, in Metzner's talk he completely repudiates McKennas often emphasis on 'large doses/"HEROIC" doses' and that anything not that was 'dabbling'. That very much annoyed me when McKenna said this!

With McKenna then he stressed large doses and communicating with 'machine elves' or whatever, and he imagined they were telling him we can vocally create objects...etc

But Metzner is not saying that at all. He is encouraging--for diviniation--low doses so the conscious mind doesn't completely dissolve and thus you can remember what you asked for

Does this mean we should expect like a little English voice answering questions? No, because if you re-member, Metzner said that divination is a way of thinking outside the box...Ie., you may get an answer not in English, or any language as such, but in images (like dreams), or in diverse ways....weird ways that complete a pattern.

Have you ever done I Ching Max. I have. You do this ritual and ask quetion, and then you are faced with this passage from the I Ching and the way its worded might--to your rational mind, expecting a linear answer, in 'English'--might not make sense, so it is for you to meditate on and doing so with respect may help answer you on deep levels

Dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting that it is out of the question we wouldn't get intelligible answer in our language, but there are so many ways. Think about dreams...VERY rarely do we have language in them---well not spoken language. it is usually more so imagery and feeling, right? And dreams can have visions

I have had a VERY VERY powerful OBE, and there was no language--just telepahthin language at begining telling me not to be afraid. But the rest was direct action that was full of meaning. And this experience is what Ralph meant about divination of the future, and he is right!!!

Also an important point to remember. The experience is not a me and plant, or you and plant. It is some kind of mysterious dynamic process, which has no boundaries per se................And thus is the source of language......in all its forms
 

maxfreakout

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zezt a dit:
Hey Max

was hoping you had some post of your latest podcast with Ralph Metzner. GREAT talk!! I was so onto it.


thanx man i totally forgot to post the Metzner talk

zezt a dit:
But am somewhat confused about your confusion regarding somethings he said---like when he was speaking about 'asking the psychedelic experience' a question---and your respond saying you have never experienced this, and you cant imagine a plant talkinEnglish.............. :D ...say what?? lol

I hope i am not seeming to make fun of you. Its just I dont get why you dont get what he means. If you dont I greatly admire your honesty. I dont like pretentious people when they claim to know stuff they dont

But here's is my take on what he means: Yes I am aware of mcKennas version of it, but remember, in Metzner's talk he completely repudiates McKennas often emphasis on 'large doses/"HEROIC" doses' and that anything not that was 'dabbling'. That very much annoyed me when McKenna said this!

With McKenna then he stressed large doses and communicating with 'machine elves' or whatever, and he imagined they were telling him we can vocally create objects...etc

But Metzner is not saying that at all. He is encouraging--for diviniation--low doses so the conscious mind doesn't completely dissolve and thus you can remember what you asked for

Does this mean we should expect like a little English voice answering questions? No, because if you re-member, Metzner said that divination is a way of thinking outside the box...Ie., you may get an answer not in English, or any language as such, but in images (like dreams), or in diverse ways....weird ways that complete a pattern.

this issue came up in a thread on TGR ages ago, in which i was sceptical, and now that you mention it i think in the podcast i was subconsciously responding more to that thread than i was to Metzner's talk.

The thing i was sceptical about, is precisely what you mention here as Mckenna's view, that a voice can speak in ENglish and tell you 'answers' to questions in English. It has never happened to me that way, so i find it hard to understand how it could happen, like how would you be able to know that it wasnt your own inner voice talking? And how would you know that the answers it was giving you were correct? Im certaionly not trying to deny anyone else's experiences, im just saying i dont understand how this could happen, and it sounds a bit shallow compared to the amazing things that psychedelics can do. Psychedelics have given me the most wonderful amazing 'answers' to things i wanted to know, but they never spoke to me in English to do this, they influenced my life massivley in a way that didnt involve speaking english to me

But now that you have explained what Metzner meant - the low dose divination method, i totally agree, i was just stuck on Mckenna's 'english voice' version, what Mckenna says about the telepathic vision language totally chimes with some of my most profound experiences, but not the english voice thing. Getting information in the form of images and visions is definitely something i am familiar with from tripping


zezt a dit:
Have you ever done I Ching Max. I have. You do this ritual and ask quetion, and then you are faced with this passage from the I Ching and the way its worded might--to your rational mind, expecting a linear answer, in 'English'--might not make sense, so it is for you to meditate on and doing so with respect may help answer you on deep levels

Dont get me wrong, I am not suggesting that it is out of the question we wouldn't get intelligible answer in our language, but there are so many ways. Think about dreams...VERY rarely do we have language in them---well not spoken language. it is usually more so imagery and feeling, right? And dreams can have visions

I have had a VERY VERY powerful OBE, and there was no language--just telepahthin language at begining telling me not to be afraid. But the rest was direct action that was full of meaning. And this experience is what Ralph meant about divination of the future, and he is right!!!

Also an important point to remember. The experience is not a me and plant, or you and plant. It is some kind of mysterious dynamic process, which has no boundaries per se................And thus is the source of language......in all its forms

right i totally agree with what you are saying here, especially the last part about the mysterious dynamic boundary-less process, this makes a lot more sense than a voice in the head giving straight answers to questions. I havent done iching myself but ive heard a lot of amazing things about it
 

zezt

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You know somethings you say there reminds me of reaction I have had reading this book I began reading ages ago.
I had been put off it several years back after reading a review (cant remember why now), but when I started reading articles by him, I tended to dig what he said in the articles................
And then I got to buy his book and really looked foreward to it. It was a challenge to me pre-existing knowledge from my research but I was willing to take that challenge

The book I'm on about is titled Not In HIS Image, by John Lamb Lash.

See I was under the impression that Gnosticism was a belief system that was feeing the world and body as a trap, and the dream was to get back to some kind of eroticised spirit world. I couldn't dig that at all, and had read a very good long essay that greatly argued against it.
To summarize, it said that it was the Orphics who kind of took over the more primal Dionysian religion and created oppressive dogma which is what influenced the Gnostics, and Christianity

Lash was saying that this was not so, and he is really a loner with this theory--as far as I'm aware. BUT his interest in all things psychedelic swayed me to hear him out, and I looked foreward for this book!

Its got as great cover. So I began reading it, and I like the beginning, because he says how the Christian religion creates a victim/perpetrator syndrome where both 'need' each other. And that this self-destructive belief system is the reason for the Holocaust against the indigenous peoples it encountered. I could very much understand that.

Then I stopped reading it, because of other interests, and recently went back to reading it again. Lash then starts talking about the elite of the Gnostics who can see microsopically and commune with an amorphous light which is a manifestation of 'Sophia' the 'fallen Goddess' which is this world. And he rates the 'romantic' love of nature, trees, clouds, etc as less than this 'superior' contact with this white light.
Well, as soon as I read this my tail went right down :D ...I couldn't relate with that at ALL! I felt very let down, because up to this I had been quite seduced by Mr Lash, but this idea to me was a huge let down. Everything I hate. The idea of a select few who are in contact with 'an event'--thus implying that deep reverence for the actual events of nature---the moving clouds, trees swaying in the wind, birds singing and flying...flowing water, and so on---that that is somehow inferior to the contact with some talking whie light.

Then he begins giving the Gnostics cosmological mythos, and claims the planet is 'trapped'...And I said --in my head--"HAH"---its just the same old shit! All his talk about Gnosticism being misunderstood, when he is basically just saying same thing and trying to pretentiously match up modern science to back up his nonesense

So, I have quit reading the book, because I really have better things to do with my time such as learning the guitar etc. But I thought I would mention this, because your thoughts remind me of mine. It is like the idea of limiting things---an amazing diverse experience to singular-sounding events

I think we agree however that Metzner is meaning nonordinary communication in much broader ways

Also I would really like to add an important point. It is known that fairies, spirits, whatever you want to call them are known to also be mischievous-----now whether this reflects the observer/listener of them *I dunno-----but we always have to keep our critical faculties with us also

I see it as where indigenous wisdom meets modern reason. I think this synthesis will be inevitable.......................and thats a good thing
 
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