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Is the LHC sabotaging itself from the future?

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IJesusChrist

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Spice my response of so what is still valid, and will continue to be, even if they lock me in a hole and feed me with a straw. I don't care.

now with that extremist view point out of the way,

You are swinging your arguement from wiping our asses to conspiracy theories - You say I'm not adressing your point, but then you go right back into the point I'm adressing.

What if people actually DID agree with you spice?! What if we DO know what you're talking about?!

Sorry, that's ridiculous. Sorry.
 

IJesusChrist

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DuPont helping make marijuana illegal.

Listen, I'm just as backed up on the legal system, capitalism, and bullshit globalization networks as you are. Even if you don't want to admit that I am because you are just 'so extreme' and out there that NOBODY is like you. They can't be, you're too above everyone.

If I didn't have a chance to cure schizophrenia, to increase renewable energy, i.e. kicked out of college do you know what I would be doing right now?

Well I won't say it really because it would be a threat to some companies security. But you can take the imagination from there.

What have YOU done against this system that so degrades us all. Your words are big enough...
 

IJesusChrist

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And I can be happy with whatever is given to me. Pain and suffering, guilt and empathy, while sometimes good, are your own creation.
 

spice

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At this point, I will simply leave you to your own devices, of course.

rotsa ruck


[edit:](a quote from you IJC)"What have YOU done against this system that so degrades us all. Your words are big enough..."


Proof that you weren't listening. (as if I needed any)


I don't have to DO anything.........you .....just.....don't .......get ...it...... :axe:
 

IJesusChrist

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haf phun

Edit:

Because You're smart, and I'm stupid.
 

st.bot.32

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I think we need to chill a bit.. and realize we have the same goals, and because we actually care about this topic, we just have strong feelings as to the subject of what to DO (or not DO) right now.

Myself, nowhere did i ever advocate doing nothing. There are more realistic ways to go about changing things than other ways though. Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

Choice a: I hate factory farming (well I do). So I dress in an animal costume and stand outside McDonalds shouting "Murderers!" at people as they walk out of the fast food joint eating their big macs.

Choice b: I eat at vegan restaraunts. I buy vegan products. I make my friends vegan meals.. it dawns on them.. 'Hey! I can eat food without animals and it actually tastes really freakin good! Wow! I don't need to use dairy in my baking? etc' I share cookbooks, information on stores where I can buy vegan clothing and other products.

One of the above choices is constructive, forward thinking, respectful, and useful because it promotes realistic change and takes into account the reality of human nature. It promotes the sharing of information and the growth of an alternative, more compassionate industry. Even if one is a 'meat minimizer' one can still participate in this option.

One of the other above choices has been tried for so long now that people have a defense mechanism in place: the person engaged in the activity has already been caricatured by society, hence immediately becomes a caricature by participating in the act and will be brushed off and forgotten 30 seconds later along with the rest of the loonie hippies. Also, it's alienating. It won't reach through to anyone. Handing out pamphlets with pictures of factory farming is probably more useful in this scenario...

Realistic, positive approaches to change are what I'm talking about here. A bit of strategy. It doesn't matter who is more 'right'.. the graves are full of people who were 'right.' I'd rather see people who are 'right' doing what actually works on a day to day level to improve humanity.

It takes GUTS to realize EVERYTHING your mama and daddy thought, and passed on to you, was wrong.

As a... shall I call it a borderline cult escapee, I so agree. Most people are incapable of doing that. No one is completely immune to this. People's beliefs and egos intertwine, they take offense or get scared far too easily when their beliefs are called into question and resort to every logical fallacy in the book to defend themselves rather than actually thinking about the questions being asked of them. There are very few people I've met whom I would call 'seekers'.
 

spice

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You are correct, of course.

My apologies to those I offended.


In your example with the vegan-carnivore scenario, yes, I understand what you are saying; 'be the change you want to see in the world'

That's a great, positive message, I don't know if it is enough though.....what I do know, for a fact, is that if this species cannot get its priorities in line, we will end up losing probably around 90% of the human race to our idiotic, lazy, habit-driven behaivour. ( and who'll be left ? Probably the ppl that crazy ol' spice rants about fucking everything up so bad, hmmm ?)

There are a lot of ostrich-people in this world, and you know what ?

Anyone that's been here anytime knows if you discuss social-political issues with me, that this is where I am taking it.




I enjoy attacking sacred cows, generally because they deserve it......if people don't want to hear it, they don't have to listen.
 

spice

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On that note: If you REALLY think that what I said about DuPont falls into the category of 'conspiracy theory', then you should read this :

http://www.worldaudit.org/The%20Elkhorn ... 0Davis.htm


These accusations read much more like a well-planned prosecution to me.

Use your critical thinking skills and come back and tell me I have a tinfoil hat. I lay this challenge before anyone. ANYONE.



Whether or not people are comfortable thinking about it, there ARE secrets, there ARE men in black vans waiting......
 

spice

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"Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there." - William E. Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to Germany, 1937.(1)


"SO WHAT ?" :idea:



"Du Pont's anti-Semitism "matched that of Hitler" and, in 1933, the Du Ponts "began financing native fascist groups in America . . ." one of which Higham identifies as the American Liberty League: "a Nazi organization whipping up hatred of blacks and Jews," and the "love of Hitler."

SO WHAT ? :idea:


"The Du Ponts' fascistic behavior was seen in 1936, when Irenee du Pont used General Motors money to finance the notorious Black Legion. This terrorist organization had as its purpose the prevention of automobile workers from unionizing. The members wore hoods and black robes, with skulls and crossbones. They fire-bombed union meetings, murdered union organizers, often by beating them to death, and dedicated their lives to destroying Jews and communists. They linked to the Ku Klux Klan. . . . It was brought out that at least fifty people, many of them blacks, had been butchered by the Legion."


:!:


There's more, and it's about to get GOOD :

GM and Standard Oil of New Jersey formed a joint subsidiary with the giant Nazi chemical cartel, I.G. Farben, which provided the mechanized German armies with synthetic tetraethyl fuel [leaded gas]. During 1936-39, at the urgent request of Nazi officials who realized that Germany's scarce petroleum reserves would not satisfy war demands, GM and Exxon joined with German chemical interests in the erection of the lead-tetraethyl plants."

spice you mean that we've known how to synthesize large volumes of fuel for almost a hundred years ?

SO WHAT ?

'During 1936-39, at the urgent request of Nazi officials who realized that Germany's scarce petroleum reserves would not satisfy war demands, GM and Exxon joined with German chemical interests in the erection of the lead-tetraethyl plants. According to captured German records, these facilities contributed substantially to the German war effort: 'The fact that since the beginning of the war we could produce lead-tetraethyl is entirely due to the circumstances that, shortly before, the Americans [Du Pont, GM and Standard Oil] had presented us with the production plants complete with experimental knowledge. Without lead-tetraethyl the present method of warfare would be unthinkable.'


....and, Dupont and GM funded terrorism, too......THAT'S WHAT I SAID !!!!!

""Along with friends of the Morgan Bank and General Motors," in early 1934, writes Higham, "certain Du Pont backers financed a coup d'etat that would overthrow the President with the aid of a $3 million-funded army of terrorists . . ." The object was to force Roosevelt "to take orders from businessmen as part of a fascist government or face the alternative of imprisonment and execution ."

They committed TREASON, too.....(something you or I would be unceremniously shot for at sunrise, btw, but....SO WHAT?)


"On February 27, 1942," according to Higham, "Arnold, with documents stuffed under his arms, . . . strode into the lion's den of Standard at 30 Rockefeller Plaza. Just behind him were Secretary of the Navy Franklin Knox and Secretary of the Army Henry L. Stimson." They confronted Standard official William Farish and "Arnold sharply laid down his charges" that "by continuing to favor Hitler in rubber deal and patent arrangements," Standard Oil "had acted against the interests of the American government . . . suggested a fine of $1.5 million and a consent decree whereby Standard would turn over for the duration all the patents" in question

The price Standard Oil "agreed" to pay for its crime? A modest fine of a few thousand dollars divided up among ten defendants. "Farish paid $1,000, or a quarter of one week's salary, for having betrayed America


SO WHAT ?


"Four months after the United States entered World War II, the Justice Department obtained an indictment of Exxon...."


This is history, not merely my opinion.

"Rather than face a criminal trial, Exxon and the indicted executives entered no-contest pleas - the legal equivalent of guilty pleas - and were fined the minor sums which were the maximum amounts permitted by law..."


IJC, this all exists within the historical record.



Now, here's where it all ties in:



"One aspect of this Standard - I.G. Farben relationship, revealed in testimony during the Patents Committee hearings, chaired by Senator Homer T. Bone in May 1942, is of interest to those who seek direct evidence of a conspiracy by big oil companies to suppress development of synthetic substitutes to petrochemical products such as industrial chemicals, aircraft lubricants and fuel, all of which can be made from hemp:"


"On May 6th, John R. Jacobs, Jr., of the Attorney General's department, testified that Standard had interfered with the American explosives industry by blocking the use of a method of producing synthetic ammonia. As a result of its deals with Farben, the United States had been unable to get the use of this vital process even after Pearl Harbor. Also, the United States had been restricted in techniques of producing hydrogen from natural gas and from obtaining paraflow, a product used for airplane lubrication at high altitudes. . . ."

On August 7th, "Texas oil operator C.R. Starnes appeared to testify that Standard had blocked him at every turn in his efforts to produce synthetic rubber after Pearl Harbor. . . ."

On August 12th, "John R. Jacobs reappeared in an Army private's uniform (he had been inducted the day before) to bring up another disagreeable matter: Standard had also, in league with Farben, restricted production of methanol, a wood alcohol that was sometimes used as motor fuel."



Still with me...?



The use of hemp as a source of methanol was known to the Nazis, revealed in the pamphlet "The Humorous Hemp Primer," published in Berlin, also in 1943.


The Nazis obviously considered hemp a vital war material that could be used to produce methanol, or "wood gas," at the same time, in 1943, that Du Pont-controlled General Motors in Switzerland was "converting from gasoline to wood-gasoline production." This, taken into consideration along with the earlier statement that Standard Oil-I.G. Farben had "restricted production of methanol" and the GM-Standard Oil-I.G. Farben joint venture, Ethyl, Inc., whose profitability depended on the production of lead-tetraethyl for oil-based petrochemical gasoline - in direct competition with the alternative methanol, or "wood gas," certainly opens new avenues of investigation into the existence of a conspiracy against hemp as an alternative, and competing, industrial raw material, by these very same corporations which sold America out to the Nazis for profit and control of world resources and markets.


(If you understand the implications of this, it becomes very easy to move beyond the 'conspiracy theory' stage.

If you don't understand the implications of this, I don't know why you think you have anything important to say on the subject)


THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY

Henry Ford, writes Higham, "admired Hitler from the beginning, when the future Fuhrer was a struggling and obscure fanatic. He shared with Hitler a fanatical hatred of Jews."

The Ford Motor Company was also aware of the potential of hemp as an alternative industrial resource, devoting many years research to the subject.

In a 1989 ABC Radio broadcast, Hugh Downs reported that in the 1930s, "the Ford Motor Company also saw a future in biomass fuels. Ford operated a successful biomass conversion plant that included hemp at their Iron Mountain facility in Michigan. Ford engineers extracted methanol, charcoal fuel, tar, pitch, ethyl acetate, and creosote - all fundamental ingredients for modern industry, and now supplied by oil-related industries. . . . Henry Ford's experiments with methanol promised cheap, readily-available fuel."

The implication of methanol fuel patents, hemp industry research and production facilities, all in the hands of this cabal of Nazi-allied American corporations, during a proven period of anti-competition conspiracies, and wartime blackmail against the U.S. government, should provide additional support for the hemp conspiracy theories. The fact is that Nazi Germany recognized hemp as a vital war material - one which, just before America's entrance into World War II, was positioned to compete in the free-market against the products controlled by the Pro-Nazi American corporations. Unrestricted expansion of United States industrial hemp production threatened not only the profits of these treasonous corporations, but the degree of their control over America's production of vital war materials.


This would be enough to probably convince anyone sitting on a jury that what I am saying is true. There's too much data, history, and documentation to back it up.

For someone to attempt to dismiss it as a 'conspiracy theory' just tells me they don't want the truth because it's uncomfortable.

SORRY !!!!


It has become fashionable to deride attempts to probe secretive relationships which are OUR BUSINESS with the 'CONSPIRACY THEORY' banner.

My radar says that this is usually their way of saying;

'you're getting close to the truth. I'm going to go all-out in an attempt to discredit you, by making you look paranoid and weird'


I give a fuck, do what you will.
 

IJesusChrist

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I applaud your effort to get your point across - I'm in a hurry and read about half of what you had posted.

I will read the rest of this later, I just don't take anything I read on the internet without analyzing it deeply, especially extreme cases like this.

I will read it later.

Edit: I still havn't read any of it, so don't take what I'm saying as a direct evaluation of the article you posted, BUT. And really I don't think you need to hear this either,

But when I read an article that accuses others of controlling large amounts of anything, be it legal status of an object, be it a large body of people, or what have you, even if I AGREE with the general thesis of the article, I read it as if I don't. I am a very hard person to convince on any type of story like this - especially the legalization status of a plant...

But then again... why DID marijuana become illegal in the first place? I see no reason why, so this article could hold alot of truth - it seems plausible, it may or may not be improbable, I'll have to read it to determine that. But I will read it, and I will take back whatever felt like I was condemning your thoughts
 

spice

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You don't have to reply if you don't want to, or see the need to, it's cool.


My point with all this is simple.


Big Industry as it exists, is pretty much the fountainhead of evil. It is not inherently this way, it was created when our economy was diverted from an agricultural basis to an industrial one. This didn't happen by accident. It was a manufactured event.

You know, this really isn't a 'conspiracy theory' per se.

It's what has been an exceptionally successful conspiracy.


Now, what must come after is reparations.

As I see it, and hopefully, most will too eventually, is that things must be set right.



How that goes about becoming a reality isn't some undefined, vague, wishy-washy bullshit theory. You must attack the problem at its root.


The root is OIL.


Well, things are getting out of control these days because that problem seems to be taking care of itself. Seems other people actually own the oil, and America (the america I describe as being an Industry-puppet) is struggling to work out an answer, well, one beneficial to industry anyway.

Cannabis is resurgent today, and the money it brings is a kind of economic judo to big oil. After all, the cannabis is produced right here, no other nation can claim soveriegnity over it, the way they can and do over the oil.....it would seem the ideal answer. It IS the ideal answer.

These people have conspired successfully on multiple fronts, the only reason it has taken this long for them to be outed is because people would rather not contemplate the necessary corrective steps, which would be painful and extennsive.

History itself has been somewhat distorted by their power and influence.

For instance, did you know that the American Civil War really wasn't about slavery at all?

Actually, that was a nice front for it....but the war was the Northern industrialists vs. the Southern Agriculturalists, and what it was about was who would have dominion of the newly acquired West.

"Lincoln was caught in the middle between the Northern industrialists and the Southern agriculturists, who both wanted to dominate Western expansion because of the wealth it offered. The industrialists knew that the agriculturists depended on slavery because cotton, upon which Southern wealth was based, was very labor intensive and required the inexpensive labor that slavery provided. They knew that if the Western lands were declared "free states" then the Southern agriculturists would be unable to compete, and would be forced to leave Western expansion, and its potential profits, to the Northern industrialists."


Quoting "The Irony of Democracy," by Thomas R. Dye and T. Harmon Zeigler,

"The importance of the Civil War for America's elite structure was the commanding position that the new industrial capitalists won during the course of the struggle. . . . The economic transformation of the United States from an agricultural to an industrial nation reached the crescendo of a revolution in the second half of the nineteenth century.

"Civil War profits compounded the capital of the industrialists and placed them in a position to dominate the economic life of the nation. Moreover, when the Southern planters were removed from the national scene, the government in Washington became the exclusive domain of the new industrial leaders."

See ?

The Northern industrialists used this increased capital to build the system of transcontinental railways, linking the Northeast with both the South and West. The labor for this undertaking was from the Northeastern Establishment's own source of cheap labor - recently freed slaves and poor immigrants from Europe and China - who suffered under living conditions which were often little better than those which existed under the Slave System just a few years before.

The struggle between Western farmers and the railroads owned by the Northern industrialists is a good example. To protect their interests, citizens created "the Grange," an organization which helped to enact state laws regulating the "ruthless aggression" of the railroads. In 1877, these laws were upheld by the Supreme Court in the Munn v. Illinois decision. But, a few years later, Justice Stephen A. Field changed the role, and the very definition, of the corporation. He gave a new interpretation to the Fourteenth Amendment that actually gave corporations legal status as citizens . . . as artificial persons.

It was not long after this change in the interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment that John D. Rockefeller, the father of the modern-day corporation, created the great Standard Oil Corporation which, by the late 1880s, gained control over 90% of all the oil refineries in America. (Guess what Standard Oil became? EXXON )


Hmmm.....spice is crazy, right.


After a few momentous court decisions that helped the industrialists Thomas Jefferson wrote:

"I think our governments will remain virtuous for many centuries; as long as they remain chiefly agricultural; and this will be as long as there shall be vacant lands in any part of America. When they get piled upon one another in large cities as in Europe they will become corrupt as in Europe."

It is important to remember that the American Revolution was a clash between the agriculturists in the colonies, and the British industrialists who controlled the government in England. Almost 100 years later the Civil War was fought as a continuation of the same basic struggle, but with the victory going back to the industrialists. This began the erosion of the American government "of the people, for the people and by the people." The buying of the 1896 Presidential Election, by Hanna of Standard Oil and the Northern industrial interests, was the next important step on the long road to the American government "of the corporation, for the corporation and by the corporation."

The big picture here is that there are spooky people in this world.


Most of them don't smoke pot either.
 

spice

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Some fun facts about Standard Oil, DuPont, and GM


Standard Oil ; Dissolved into 34 companies by the US Supreme Court in 1911 for shady business practices

One of these companies was named Jersey Standard, which became Exxon.

Another was Standard Oil of New York, later better known as Mobil.

Standard Oil of California became Chevron.

Standard Oil of Ohio is now BP.

Standard formed a partnership with GM and IG Farben. Dupont financed terrorism with GM money.


In the early 40's, Standard partner IGFarben built a factory to produce synthetic fuels. At full production it made use of over 80,000 workers. The name of this factory was Buna Chemical Plant.

The entire labor force was all comprised of Jewish people.

This factory was located in a place called Auschwitz, and the date places it square in the center of the Holocaust.

The gas used to execute Jews at these camps went by the name of Zyklon B. It was a pesticide, the patent held by IGFarben.


One thing to understand about DuPont is that it was founded as a gunpowder mill around 1800. They then began manufacturing dynamite and smokeless powder. They began purchasing small chemical companies and was forced to divest their holdings. This was an application of the Sherman Anti-trust act, an anti-monopoly law that was the very same was Standard Oil was forced to break up in 1911.

In 1914, Pierre DuPOnt bought stock in General Motors. In 1915 he was on the Board of Directors at GM.

So understand, what happened was that DuPont funneled money into GM. 40 years later, they were in trouble again, and Dupont was forced to sell all its GM stock by the Clayton Anti-trust act, an Anti-monopoly law.

To this very day, DuPont is the largest corporate producer of air pollution in the United States.

Researchers at the Political Economy Research Institute of the University of Massachusetts Amherst ranked DuPont as the largest corporate producer of air pollution in the United States. The study found DuPont's most toxic pollution comprised chloroprene (855,370 lb/yr, 387,989 kg/yr), sulfuric acid (804,501 lb/yr, 364,916 kg/yr), and chlorine (65,088 lb/yr, 29,523 kg/yr) based on Toxics Release Inventory data. The most massive releases came in the form of more than 4 million pounds (1,800 t) of carbonyl sulfide followed by 2 million pounds (900 t) of hydrochloric acid.

nice.


But wait..... there's more.....

Along with General Motors, DuPont was the inventor of CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons), and the largest producer of these ozone-depleting chemicals (used primarily in aerosol sprays and refrigerants) in the world, with a 25% market share in the late 1980s.

DuPont has faced fines from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency? and litigation over releases of the Teflon processing aid perfluorooctanoic acid (PFOA, also known as C8) from their works in Washington, West Virginia. PFOA contaminated drinking water led to increased levels in the bodies of residents in the surrounding area.


_________________________________________________________________________________________________________



I don't want these people, or people that think like them, in control OF ANY-FUCKING-THING.

Especially a new source of energy.
 

VapourTrail

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I am sorry... what about the hadron collider?

I think this may need a thread of its own.
 

IJesusChrist

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It seems off topic - but what is going on here is that if something were to come out of the LHC, a positive thing, some type of clean energy, or a new process to create something useful - somebody would patent it, take it, and make profit as it would become 'theres' and not the worlds.

I did know that about the civil war - Abraham lincoln once said "If I had to give all slaves freedom, I would, but if I only needed to give some slaves freedom, I would." His main objective was to keep the union (the u.s.) as one entity... He just saw that slavery was a deciding factor.

If we had gone with the agriculturists, i.e. kept free-labor, would we be growing pot now? Interesting concept - but a little abstract for this discussion.

I see that there is alot of evidence, and it actually seems quite ridiculous that all the majority owning oil companies of the western world all came from one oil company. I can see how this led to extreme fucked up people in the early 1900's.

I will say this however - it CANNOT be like that anymore, there is just no way that DuPont is lead by people that outrageous ANYMORE... I will always agree however, that the people that own these companies, SIMPLY BY OWNING THEM, SImply by having the label that they have, they are in some way, so fucked up, and so far away from base line of what is normal.

My home town has begun plans to extend an oil pipeline from the tar sands through it. As I have said before, if I didn't have a possible future in research of renewable energy or what-not, I wouldn't be allowing that to take place, ... but it will happen.
 

spice

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VapourTrail a dit:
I am sorry... what about the hadron collider?


merely that;

'those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them'




Do you really want to go through all that drama I was just talkng about up there ^ again?

I don't.


I expect more from people that deem themselves innovators and leaders. I expect them to be accountable and transparent, not decietful, shifty-eyed three-card-monte specialists enriching themselves and laughing at our stupid asses.

The thrust of my argument, again, is that we need to develop a set of ACTUAL ethics about our interactions with each other that go beyond what we consider acceptable today. What good does it do to have advanced brains capable of developing ways to split atoms when our emotional wiring is so destructive and immature? We must let go of these vestiges of our primate animailty in order to become emotionally intelligent.



It's going to take a new way of thinking about what humans are to become, a transcending of the paradigm, in order to claim our birthright as a super-intelligent species. We must be ready to assume the responsibility of great power, and we're not.


That's what all this is about, we're not ready for the power. If we plunge onward with the continual energy-based research, history has already shown that this type of activity cannot wisely be entrusted to those type industries which would be best suited to implement the processes, once discovered.


To further simplify:


We cannot trust each other. Until we can, everyone is drunk and wearing a blindfold.
 

Forkbender

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spice a dit:
everyone is drunk and wearing a blindfold.

Sounds like a party.

But seriously, I agree with what you say.
 

BrainEater

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agreed as well. we need people at the top who have emotions for others and are not corrupted in their corebeing with greed, lust for power, etc etc and who can act intelligently and efficiently while caring for us/them etc etc.....

if the shit goes on like it does we might need to hire killers to stop it and try to "turn the tide" actively...

peace
 

IJesusChrist

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BrainEater a dit:
if the shit goes on like it does we might need to hire killers to stop it and try to "turn the tide" actively...

peace

Final Fantasy 7 anyone?
 
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