Graffiti, Street Art, Urban Art, etc...

[IJesusChrist]

I was walking around last night, and I realized you and I really are not seeing the same thing when we see a wall with graffiti.

You see graffiti. You see an act of contestation. You see a vandal, a child, a angstful teenager, someone causing uncleanliness.

I see me, I see people like me, I see a story, I see a reason, I see a motivation, I see a passion.

I'm talking to YOU Emile. I'm not asking you to talk for the general population.

 

[ophiuchus]

Then I think Allusion was next objecting to something about “obnoxious pictures of drinking straws”

just to be clear why i said anything. it wasn't the picture itself, i only posted that because it read to me like you were insinuating an insult (and the picture would have been offensive if it were directed at the users post that was mentioned). we've already dealt with this though, no need to carry it further.

interesting where this debate has gone. ill weigh in in a bit

 

[ararat]

did anyone occur how well aemilius' avatar fits to the discussion?

there's really more important stuff out there.


oh, and because of the advertising graffiti comparison, you know, advertising is made to influence you, graffiti is not. advertising is using psychology (there's even a whole branch of it dedicated to that) to manipulate you and create false needs. this is what it makes it quite different to graffiti if you ask me, and it most certainly is what annoys me about it. intention colors everything, and it is in advertising that this intention is pretty much always a distinctly ugly one, in contrast to graffiti, which may have ugly intentions, or really beautiful ones.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'll object that you can just "silence" out graffiti like you can silence a member here - it's true. You all do it, or most of us do. After I show my friends a few pieces of graffiti they say, (all of them), "wow it's like a new way to look at a street corner - there is something I've never even noticed." I've heard that from at least 4 or 5 different people who were completely unaware of the graffiti world.

The whole thread/post started so that you, Emile, would quit fucking posting and commenting on me "being a little kid with a can trying to make difference" that really pissed me off, and showed you had no idea about what graffiti is, and probably still don't. It is a community, a silent one, and once you become a part of it, it 'clicks'.

But it is obvious that no matter what ideas I explain you will continue to put me and advertisers in the same sentence. And yet, I think this will make you think twice the next time you see

[this one was from Seattle]

 

[Light]

I thought graffiti artists never cared about what other people thought of them.

:?

 

[Crimzen]

truthfully though, aemillius your images are actually comparable to graffiti
theres no way to unsee something you've already seen, if we didnt want to see your images its too late because we all already have even if we were to block you or whatever the function is, we would still have seen the images you've posted

its the same in that regard because if you've seen a piece of graffiti you'll know its there next time and you can choose to look away if you wish


'no choice and no difference' my ass
they're entirely different, just because they share the trait of being publicly displayed doesnt make graffiti and advertisements the same
i share the trait of being a human with you but we arent the same
which brings me to another point
what about someone walking around the city with a tshirt that you dont like, lets say it has some kind of slogan that you happen to find offensive
would you have them change clothes because you dont like it?

 

[Crimzen]

i like how you quote something then say 'uh huh' its very helpful

Not really, but I think I see what you mean. You’re saying that in order that graffiti artists and advertising artists can continue to exercise their right to plaster society with messages and images people may or may not want to see, that your suggestion would simply be that those of us in the middle who may not want to see it should just try to memorize where all the graffiti is and avoid looking around if at all possible!

No, my point was to do with your 'absurdist' image posting and its comparison to graffiti, you say your image posting is nothing like graffiti and that we can simply ad you to our block list to avoid them if we wish, what i'm saying is that we have already seen your images whether we like them or not because how could someone possibly predict what image you're going to post next?

Now i wonder if you wanted to see that?
no?
maybe you should add me to your foe list just in case i ever post anything like this again?

My point with the Tshirts is that you can put anything on a shirt and wear it out in public 'forcing' others to see it, you could even yell out "Hey everyone look at my shirt!" to 'force' more people to look
so why do you specifically dislike graffiti? why stop there?
why not protest against peoples personal freedoms so that you dont have to be bothered by what you're being forced to see?

 

[IJesusChrist]

Aemilius, now you are just being stubborn, and I'll go so far as to say stupid.

I made a point to explain to you that there is more to graffiti than what you originally thought. You should have picked up on that, but rather than empathizing with my words, you simply retaliated, and came to the conclusion (and it seems like you came to it in this thread, mind you) that graffiti and advertisements are the same thing.

That is about the most narrow minded and shortest sight I have ever seen from you, and to avoid being sarcastic with you any longer, it does not make me proud, and in a great deal, make me ashamed that you are unable to do any more with this subject.

If you think graffiti and advertisements are identical then you really aren't an artist, I'm sorry. An artist sees beauty through the facade, you however are completely, and utterly failing to do that.

"oh well I like some of it!"

Good for you.

You are just shutting yourself in, defending your original posts, trying not to change, trying not to accept. You'd be a good politician.

 

[Crimzen]

Still not much comment on or about the list of similarities, really none at all. Listen, you all (or most of the people responding) seem to think that advertising and graffiti share nothing or very little in common, and I say they share quite a bit in this list of similarities. So if I’m wrong it shouldn’t be any problem for you guys to just refute them (not just by saying "That's not true!" or "My ass!" either, but by actually showing why they're not true) and knock them down one by one in about five minutes. I'll just check them off as they are shown not to be true and in no time at all I’ll be doing all kinds of grovelling and apologizing. I'm betting the list will just get longer though, already a couple of similarities were added to the list as a result of comments that were made. None have been refuted, so until then....

Advertisers are only one small part of the population that is plastering society today with all kinds of messages and images that people may or may not want to see.... and Graffiti artists are only one small part of the population that is plastering society today with all kinds of messages and images that people may or may not want to see....

Together (Advertising and Graffiti), these two groups represent the only two relatively small parts of the population that are responsible for the majority of all the outdoor image plastering going on in society, consisting of all kinds of messages and images that people may or may not want to see....

Both of these small groups claim (for different reasons) that they have the right to plaster society with messages and images that people may or may not want to see....

Advertising people stand behind the facade of the grand tradition of free enterprise.... and Graffiti people stand behind the facade of the grand tradition of freedom of expression....

Neither group will stop plastering society with messages and images that people may or may not want to see....

Advertising people, a small part of the population, in plastering society with messages and images that people may or may not want to see, have no problem deciding for everyone in a given area what's worth looking at, and then physically imposing it.... and Graffiti people, a small part of the population, have no problem deciding for everyone in a given area what's worth looking at, and then physically imposing it....

The messages and images Advertising people are plastering society with are carefully placed at locations that will have maximum impact, where the most people can be made to look at it....and the messages and images Graffiti people are plastering society with are carefully placed at locations that will have maximum impact, where the most people can be made to look at it....

Thats possibly because your 'list' is mostly only one point
That advertisers and graffiti artists are similar because they 'will not stop plastering society with messages and images that people may or may not want to see"

Theres your first 3 points combined plus 5 and 6 and a bit of 7
your 4th point isnt a similarity at all but actually a distinct difference...

So yes graffiti and advertisements share a similarity of 'plastering' messages or images in public with the implication that people may or may not want to see them...is that really all you've got? because thats not much to base your argument that they are 'the same'

Because 2 things share a similarity does not make them 'the same' apples and oranges share the similarity of being fruit and growing on trees but they arent the same, humans and cats are both animals but they arent 'the same'

 

[IJesusChrist]

What Crimzen said.

It like comparing a flag of anarchy to a flag of the us. They both are made to represent something, so therefore, they are nearly identical in their meaning.

Emile stop holding on so hard...

 

[ophiuchus]

Allusion “just to be clear why i said anything. it wasn't the picture
itself, i only posted that because it read to me like you were insinuating
an insult (and the picture would have been offensive if it were directed
at the users post that was mentioned).”

I see, it wasn’t the picture itself, initially, but the printed portion
of my post that you read as insinuating an insult, and if the insinuated
insult had been real, which it was never shown to be, then the image
accompanying it would have been offensive, though it turned out not to
be, if it were directed at the users post that was mentioned, which it
wasn’t, and that led you to immediately attack the (to you) obnoxious
image rather than the printed portion of the post where the insinuated
insult is supposed to have been, but never was, before moving on to how
it might be a violation of the rules (like too much colored text) and finally
just changing and avoiding the subject.That all makes perfect sense
Allusion, I won’t question your line of reasoning again!

no. it was both the statement, as well as the picture, in combination, that i found offensive. i made a comment to you about an insult, not regarding a specific media, and you chose to ignore my point about the verbal portion. not my fault.

you said: Where is the insult anyway?

i showed you what i found offensive (after i saw that you didn't seem to "get" it):

[quote:xn7wj5ph] Quant says: “TV is a tool to control the population and keep people asleep so they work and consume quietly. It provides shitty culture and it makes shitty people in a shitty world.”

aemillius said: "That’s a perfect description of television. Perfect, that is, if one sees the world through the mental equivalent of a drinking straw!"

with an obnoxious(loud and unnecessary) picture of colorful straws.[/quote:xn7wj5ph]

would have been offensive, though it turned out not to
be, if it were directed at the users post that was mentioned, which it
wasn’t, and that led you to immediately attack the (to you) obnoxious
image rather than the printed portion of the post where the insinuated
insult is supposed to have been

it was never decided officially whether or not it was offensive, and since quant is no longer here, we cannot make that an accurate statement. you sure do love twisting words. once again, you chose to ignore the fact that i was addressing your post as a whole, which i pointed out that i had already done, as cited above...

before moving on to how
it might be a violation of the rules (like too much colored text)

that's not what i said.

just so you know, another member was warned about breaking forum rules by constantly posting in multi-colored text all the time. i think the picture posting follows this same line of ruling, but like i said, im not going to tell you what to do because i don't care. just stop doing this crap right here (arguing petty nonsense) and neither of us will have a problem. a debate is one thing(i love), this however, is something that no one else should have to read... can we all be mature and end it now? pretty please with sugar on top?

it is one thing to debate, it is another thing to argue with no respect to the people with which you speak. if you continue on treating people in this manner, ill be addressing it with the administrator.

any further replying here is going to be considered off topic. if you still wish to reply to this, do it in pm or it's going to be deleted.

 

[NeilPatrickHarris]

nice post IJC. i'm a big fan (and always have been) of graffiti. so much so, that one of my tat sleeves are a few different pieces of graffiti that are worked together as one big piece and my back piece that has been started is graffiti as well.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Ok, so emile, so far you have gone from;

Advertisers and graffiti writers both have a disregard for the people who view them.

Not completely true, but I'll give it to you.

Then, you go on to say the vast majority of the population believes in property rights. Yeah well the vast majority of the US voted for george bush, thinks LSD makes your brain bleed, thinks that Jesus was magical, I mean the list goes on. Are you arguing that we should follow the majority?

You really have nothing. You just don't like scribbling on walls. Admit it, get over it, or become a more observant, and decent person by realizing what it is, rather than dismissing it as all the rest. An artist should always see the better side of these types of things, and your failing in that regard.

And thanks NPH, graffiti is great.

 

[Light]

IJC, don't you notice your arguments aren't convincing Aemilius?

Change your approach.

Be like seaweed.

/cheering on the sideline.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I have changed my approach at least twice in here, with the same replies.

 

[Crimzen]

Its fair enough that everyone has their own tastes in these kind of things
no one is trying to force anyone to like anything, its just a matter of trying to view things from another perspective i guess

I'm still not sure if you, emile, see graffiti as a valid artform?


moving right along...

gota stop myself there.....

 

[Light]

I wouldn't want that on my house. I wouldn't be able to find the door when I'm tripping. :shock:

movie tip: Exit through the gift shop.

 

[Light]

Some of my favorite street art:

 

[Crimzen]

I see. Thanks for clearing that up emile
also i saw that picture in the other thread, you're clearly very talented, at shading in particular

@light
HAH those are awesome!

 

[IJesusChrist]

Thats what I was waiting for. At least you say you learn something, and are positive in the end. I like how you sneaked in that I must live in a bleak environment, where you live in the best, though... clever.