Elves....You seen them?

[maxfreakout]

Your defining and playing word games again

if we cant agree on what it means to be 'real', then i dont understand the point of debating if dmt elves (or HPPD, or anything) is 'real'


there are more important and relevant questions to ask about dmt elves, like what do they show us about the mind

 

[GOD]

"what do they show us about the mind"

What do you think ?

 

[TweeterAcidEater]

Elves generally piss me off.
My best salvia trip had me marching with a mass of Orcs, and while I'm not one for barbarism I just damn love me some Orcs and Goblins

 

[cycle]

^It would only be caused by DMT if everybody who takes it sees them. This is not the case, ergo they are not produced by DMT. DMT doesn't turn off the subconscious, but it channels it into a visual form, which was hitherto (finally got to use that word) unknown.

DMT could of course be a factor if only some people who take it see it. Actually this is an existing hypothesis in the case of near death experiences (next to the oxygen deprivation hypothesis).

The 1 million dollar question is if these entities have an intelligence independent of our own, which could be perhaps be answered if they give some information which is unknown to mankind - like for example blueprints for a working interdimensional transporter.

Francis

 

[GOD]

Welcome to the forum cycle .

"DMT could of course be a factor if only some people who take it see it."

Yes . Its an hallucinogen . But as all people dont see fantysy elves when they have taken the DMT its not the DMT its the people .

"Actually this is an existing hypothesis in the case of near death experiences (next to the oxygen deprivation hypothesis). "

What is ?

"The 1 million dollar question is if these entities have an intelligence independent of our own"

No it isnt . Thats a fantasy theory from people who dont understand drugs , their mind and cant take their own responsibility .

"which could be perhaps be answered if they give some information which is unknown to mankind "

Its already been answered . They dont .

 

[cycle]

Yes . Its an hallucinogen . But as all people dont see fantysy elves when they have taken the DMT its not the DMT its the people .

What I refered to is 'factors like these'. Some people get cured by a medicine, some people don't. That doesn't mean the medicine can't be a cause, the medicine can still be a factor. Similarly some people report a tunnel and light when they die, but certainly not all - the light could exist independently of the human mind or oxygen deprivation might be a factor.

"The 1 million dollar question is if these entities have an intelligence independent of our own"

No it isnt . Thats a fantasy theory from people who dont understand drugs , their mind and cant take their own responsibility .

For what reason are you dismissive? I for example do understand psychoactives, my mind, take responsibility and still allow for this possibility. There is a difference between 'belief' and allowing for possibilities, outlandish they may be. Even Dr. Rick Strassman allows for this possibility:
http://realitysandwich.com/voyaging_dmt ... rassman_md

Francis

 

[GOD]

Its an hallucinogen , it is the cause . The elves dont exist . There is less than no proof that they exist , or if you think those fantasys are real offer proof . People who think that their hallucinations exist arent takeing their own responsibility .

The guy you quote isnt a neutral objective scientist . He has made claims that are unfounded .

"For what reason are you dismissive?"

Because i`m not stupid . Fantasys are fantasys and lots of unintelligent or dishonest people try claim that their fantasys are real . Children often insist that their fantasy friends are real but us adults , because we are adults know that they arent real .

Offer proof , show us something that the fantasy elves have disclosed that wasnt known before . You cant can you because they dont exist .

You sound like another internet victim to me . One that believes that things he reads in the internet are fact and doesnt use his brain anymore . The internet is full of loads of shit . Confused people can post things and one has to find reliable sources for instance from reliable organisations and scientists to double check the things one reads .

 

[restin]

Being away from a discussion for a night gets me losing the thread (word game :lol: )

I see thoughts and ideas as real, but not in a physical sense. I.E. if I think of pink elephants (why always pink elephants??!?), they are real in thought, I can talk about them and describe them and to deny the reality of me thinking about pink elephants sounds stupid, although this does not mean they exist materially. If you ascribe physical or etherical existance to a thought, this is projecting the thought on the outside world, while it is all inside your own mind. This is an error of categories. You take a truth and make it into the Truth as something external and true for everybody.

So maybe I could quote myself here:

We can say that "real" equals something that is. [...] So, therefore: all that is OR everything that I can think of OR everything which the word "is" is added = reality.

I remember vaguely my philosophy lessons...Cogito ergo sum - I think, therefore I am - which leads us to the basic conclusion that everything you think is, as long as you think it. Therefore, if you think of pink elephants, they exist, as long as you think them.

But that's again something different than the "reality of thought". You mean something different, when you say that ideas are real. Because "idea" is different than "pink elephants". Isn't idea an abstraction from what is outside your mind - an observation? Even if you CREATE an idea, you take up "information" (bad word) from the outside.

There were books written about this topic....

 

[cycle]

You sound like another internet victim to me . One that believes that things he reads in the internet are fact and doesnt use his brain anymore . The internet is full of loads of shit . Confused people can post things and one has to find reliable sources for instance from reliable organisations and scientists to double check the things one reads .

Sure it's important to weed out the nonsense, that said I don't understand why you should throw out the baby (possibility of broadly speaking extra-sensory perception) with the filthy bathwater (the whole zoo of odd beings from sirius, n-th dimension, trying to tell us some arcane obvious universal truth).... or even slander two people without any reason for that matter.

Both are unwarranted - if you read closely I never said I belief transforming machine elves or anything of the sort have somekind of independent existence beyond our minds. Concerning Mr. Strassman, for example scientists believing in God doesn't necessarily devalue them in their capability of applying the scientific method - so what part in his reasoning concerning the allowance of this possibility do you have issue with - or mine for that matter?

I only suggested forces behind these manifestations might come from beyond mind in rare occasions (beyond personal history and memory, collective archetypes, set, setting) and that scientific tests can conceivably be devised to look into this. I am not in the business of proving or convincing you that these exist or occur, for all I care they don't exist and everything is all in the mind. Allowing for this doesn't necessarily make me gullible or a irresponsible victim, please acknowledge this.

 

[GOD]

I didnt slander anyone .

You can believe what you want . I didnt say you cant . Read again what i said .

Only fools believe in things . Sensible people look for facts and proofs . They know what they know and for things they dont know they are aware of the posibilitys .

The person you quoted is not a neutral , objective source of information . There are others . His word isnt carved in stone and he hasnt got the last word . Hero worship isnt a reliable source of facts .

 

[Forkbender]

I think, therefore I am - which leads us to the basic conclusion that everything you think is, as long as you think it. Therefore, if you think of pink elephants, they exist, as long as you think them.

I don't see how the conclusion follows from D's statement. I think, therefore I am doesn't imply that what is thought is real. If you read the meditations, you see that it is precisely doubt that brought him to this conclusion, that one can never be sure of the content of thought.

Now I'm far from a Descartian, mainly because of the strict division between res extensa and res cogitans, but we'll save that for another time.

 

[Forkbender]

DMT could of course be a factor if only some people who take it see it.

Yes, it is definitely a factor, but it is like putting on glasses to see what is already there (in the mind). Now that doesn't mean anyone has elves in his or her mind, but that some form of unconsciousness is channeled by the process of visualization under the influence of DMT into visions that are interpreted as elves. It could be, for example, the inner playfulness of a person that rarely comes out and is suppressed by habit that takes the shape of the elves.

 

[restin]

well it is not doubt that he does but doubt of everything that can be questioned. And even if you are deceived by all your senses you can certainly know that you are because you can think that you are deceived. I don't like Descartes either but this story of being and being not is extremely old - Paremenides, Plato - but he seemed like a good example for this particular topic and I think that he is right with that.

 

[Forkbender]

I recommend the book Reality by Peter Kingsley.

I'm gonna read every one of the about 800 pages again soon.

It is about the mystical life of the presocratics. Very interesting.

 

[GOD]

"presocratics"

? are they reptilians . lemurians or atlantians ?

 

[maxfreakout]

"presocratics"

? are they reptilians . lemurians or atlantians ?

philosophers who pre-dated Socrates

all the ancient Greek philosophers were totally psychedelic

 

[maxfreakout]

I remember vaguely my philosophy lessons...Cogito ergo sum - I think, therefore I am - which leads us to the basic conclusion that everything you think is, as long as you think it. Therefore, if you think of pink elephants, they exist, as long as you think them.

no this is the wrong way round from what Descartes was saying. He wasnt saying that the thoughts exist, he was saying that the thinker ('I') exists - the only certain truth

 

[significationof?!?]

Hmm GOD I would like to know your view of the universe. From what I gathered you base your understanding of reality on logical facts, yes? But how do you explain the relationship between mind and matter?
If the whole conscious and unconscious process is tied inextricably to the physical arrangement of cells, molecules, electrons and whatnot in the brain, determined by it, then how to explain that the mind can have any effect on matter? We fall into materialist determinism, and free will doesn't exist?? In this view "transforming machine elves" have a physiological explanation, maybe human brains have structures that, when stimulated with the right chemicals, recognize the general presence of "beings", interpret them as "elves" in many people, who knows? My point is that a materialist approach either accepts that elves exist (unlikely), or accepts that since all thoughts are merely the reflection of chemical reactions, the elves are as real as the rest of the mind, i.e. not at all.
Or that's how I understand it. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct.

 

[GOD]

To tell the truth i couldnt even explain what the word logical means .

I`ve never realy had to think about things . I just see something with my mind i want to explain / understand , specify it / define it and tell my mind to get on with it . Then i go and have a doss and watch TV . After a while ideas start comeing into my consciousness . When it starts to get noisy / boreing i tell my mind to have another look and make conclusions and i watch TV again . Eventualy ideas that make sense to me pop up and i make a choice between them depending on what fits the bill and what makes sense to me .

All my ideas about reality and the universe / existence come from meditating , with or without eating loads of cannabis , directed dreaming and near death experiences .

Some of the ways i explain them or catagorise them / justify them come from reading books , watching films / TV programs , sifting out the parts that are interesting for me and forgeting the rest . I have a very selective memory and a talent for leting some things go in one ear and out of the other leaving no trace .

Most people get their beliefs / knowledge about the structure of the universe from their education . Learning what is now and thinking backwards to what caused it / why and how it could be . I went the other way and thought "Start with absolute nothing and find a way to get here" . I think i have done it . Since i did it there have been new ideas , theorys and proofs in physics and a lot of them fit in with the system i have built up in my mind .

In the end there are no diferences between mind and matter to me . Mind being consciousness and matter an expression of it . To me the universe / multiverse / multifartyverse is conscious of itself and created itself to give itself something to do and stop itself being bored . Very simply said .





To anyone who thinks i`m nuts ....." I dont mind and you dont mater".......

 

[GOD]

Maybe takeing DMT changes the focus of consciousness and consciousness just starts viewing things going on in the brain / body in more detail and on a smaller scale . Then when it "sees" some bodily processes that it has no explenation for it just visualises them and sees them as DMT entitys / machine elves . Thats what the mind does with things it detects . It tries to make paterns from things , looks for ways to catagorise them and understand them . Maybe the elves are just visualisations of blood cells , or chemicals workeing in the body . I`ve had things like that when i have meditated and looked into myself trying to peel of the layers of the onion and get to the basis / origin of "me" .

Maybe its all just reflections of things from uncle terences theorys that people have heard consciously or unconsciously .

I remember him saying / writeing that he had read gulivers travels to so that might be where he got the original asociation from . Plus as they say genius is close to madness , and for me he had a good portion of both of them .