All Roads Lead To Prison

[GregAndrsn]

I think you're too far into being bitter, crimzen...

sure it's not perfect, but thinking it's the devil won't get you anywhere.. There are a few evil ideologies out there, but the entire system isn't evil. neither are it's people. Only a very, very few.

 

[smithjanny]

All roads lead to Rove. That was the message scrawled as an afterthought in the lower left-hand corner of the envelope I received in yesterday’s mail. It contained a letter from an old and dear friend of mine. His name is Don Siegelman. He is the former governor of Alabama and he is being held as a political prisoner of the Bush administration in a Federal prison in Louisiana.





http://www.ecigarette.org/

 

[Crimzen]

ok schwanke
what can you gain from christianity that you cant get from yourself?
i didnt invalidate shit, if you want to ignore the actual point of what im trying to say because i make a comment on something you disagree with then ur ignorant

im not being bitter, im trying to make you see that money is unnecessary
the system is a form of control, if you dont think so look at how it works, the credit/debt situation for one
and the one guy at the top of a pyramid absorbing all the wealth from every single one beneath him

i never said the system is evil, good and evil are based on perception
i just think its corrupt
its based upon getting as much as you can rather than helping to get people what they need
sure maybe im a hypocrite, i live in the system and i have far more than i need and im not donating it to people in need
but at least i can see it for what it is

 

[itsscience]

We are all talking around in circles from differing viewpoints and offering nothing.

To say Taoism is going to save the world is absolute crap just as to say Taoism isn't going to save the world is absolute crap. As far as I'm aware the Tao is a purely personal thing and will help the individual to live harmoniously in any given system however it is such a complex philosophy to anyone who has been raised beyond the age of say 15 that hardly anyone is going to achieve it in conscious life, this is why Taoist monks go and sit under trees and contemplate their navels for years on end - same is true of the Buddhist concept of enlightenment. The plain truth is that the global economic system will not allow any of us the luxury to achieve the perfect state's of being suggested by these philosophies.

Here are some practical ways to give us a little more of the freedoms we are seeking:

1. Do away with the corporate entity. Anything a company can do can also be done by one or more individuals - we need to stop allowing directors of companies to hide behind the corporate veil and avoid liability for their decisions.

2. Do away with the over regulation of all our markets. Allow your neighbour to lend money rather than make it the exclusive domain of banks. Let your other neighbour sell cooked food from his house without making him pay health department licences and install additional toilets and parking. Let the man across the street go out into the country side and mine for gold without making him pay for the right to do so. Let the man two doors down use his boat to ferry people to the island 20kms away for a holiday without requiring him to hold a skipper's ticket. Allow another man to distill alcohol and sell it, allow yet more others to grow dope/manufacture lsd etc.

Take a lot of these overly burdensome laws and regulations away and suddenly there's no need for big business to corrupt politicians by bribing them so that they get their way and perhaps we will get a bit more "representative" in our democracies.

We can't just strip away all laws though because a lot of them are there for protection of the individual, the poor and the disadvantaged. What needs to be done is a thorough review of our political and legal systems of every country and do away with those things that work to curtail our freedoms to interact with each other and our environment as we see fit.

The task is so overwhemingly huge that more than likely it can't be done and we just have to wait for the pendulum of human existence and society settle down in its own course.

Side note: Crimzen, read up on the story of the Hutt River Province, Western Australia - he stuck it to the Man.

 

[Crimzen]

haha yeah i'd heard a little about it before
its a pretty interesting idea
didnt WA try to secede from australia at some point? (someone said so but i dno if its true)

 

[GregAndrsn]

Alright, so my point is;

Being bitter and 'hating' the man ain't gonna get you shit. Hippies holding flags and what not don't know what they are representing. Go and ask one, really. Next time you see someone holding a flag, ask them what it stands for, and what it is really going to get them.

Itsscience is right, i'm right, crimzen is right, and so is shwanke. We're all seeing parts of the story, but in reality this system is way too big for one man or woman to take up in control. There is no president, (s)he is a puppet, but not to any single person, or even a single group. They are forged by an ideology, an abstract social construct that we can't see, point out, or explain in any coherent manner. It is all of histroy tumbling overitself to reach this point in time. There will always be people who accept and learn to live in the system, and there will always be those who push boundaries.

Crimzen is one who wants to push boundaries (and really - if you don't like what you live in DO SOMETHING).

Me (and I think shwanke) are ones who take comfort in what has been granted. But I personally am always wary of what is taken away. It is just so balanced for me specifically I cannot complain. However, I would like to be able to hold psilocybin in my hands without fear of cuffs, but my ability to go to a park, drive away and sit in a camp and do that without fear is ok by me. If that freedom was taken away I would surely be breaking bottles and smashing windows.

I have my places of interest, my public outcries, my firm standings, but they are all abstract, and not many people are able to grab hold. I've spoken of them before, and I would say 99% of the population will disagree with me. I know most of you will aswell.

Itscience is right in the fact that there ARE autrocities within the system - specifically financial ones. My personal angst in this area is compounded interest and the ability for companies to dodge damage. When a company pollutes an entire ecosystem, they must be disbanded. They need to go under new control, or someone NEEDS to take responsibility.

Those types of situation make me cringe in this day and age. But my ability to speak with all of you is great, and pleasing.

Oh, and crimzen, yes I AM SAYING THAT CAPITALISTIC IDEAS ARE THE MOST ABUNDANT IMPETUS FOR TECHNOLOGICAL CHANGE.

 

[Schwanke668]

I'm backin out of this conversation. Its going no where, atleast for me. Ive spent 15 years on the internet and one thing you learn is when people are just either screaming back and forth at each other or hell bent in their own beliefs with no room for change. I can tell from what I have read in this particular thread that this particular thread has nothing for me that is going to interest me or add anything to my life and I dont see myself as having any particular input that is going to enable anyone else to gain anything from it except maybe letting GregAndersn know that we are pretty much on the same wavelength.

If anything Greg if you want to keep going more power to you and consider this a unilateral support for you to do what you feel is right. I think you can do it with less emotion then me and I know that my emotional intensity can be negative in some conversations and I think this one is one of them.

On Taoism. Taoism is a personal inner search that the whole purpose is to change the world by changing yourself. We are all connected in spirit and mind across the cosmos if you will and as such when one person changes we all change. By changing ourselves we change humanity because we are an intrinsic needed part of humanity. Whenever someone dies a part of humanity dies and whenever someone is born a new part of humanity is grown. As we as spiritual and psychological beings develop we influence those around us who influence those around them. Simplest example is meme's and viral videos. My brother's best friend did the video with the music on the subway on the iphones. That went viral to the point of a no name band being asked onto good morning america and a bunch of other pop culture news shows. If you think a personal belief system cant change the world thats a Christian band who hold healthy well developed Christian views at heart and are now speaking to hundreds of thousands because of one spontanous idea one of them had.

Maybe this is chiming in the thread in the sense of the taoism if the thread splits but I am going to try and stay away from the religious discussions. I can tell when someone's mind isnt going to be changed by anything I have to say. Just too bitter and just too deep. :( God will have to work with you on that one directly.

 

[Crimzen]

i agree with you on just about everything in ur last post greg

I personally dont believe that capitalism has much to do with technological advancement
there always has been and always will be people who have a predisposition to learn and create

its like...
you need money to build a nuclear reactor (for example) right? but if you didnt live in a capitalist society and yet there was still a need for this invention there would still be people who would create it
generally speaking everyone needs incentive to do things which are beyond the call of common duty
but if there was no such thing as cash then there would be other incentives

I can see how its easy to be comfortable and be thankful for what you have, hell im very thankful
im thankful for the fact that i have this computer to communicate through and yet im somewhat disgusted at the means by which it has come to me
does that mean im gona throw it out? no
i eat meat, im thankful for the big steak i had for dinner tonight
that doesnt mean i like killing animals..

*edit since schwanke posted just before me

@schwanke
get off your fuckin high horse buddy
you whinge about people not being willing to change their beliefs and yet you are far from willing to change your own
besides the fact that no one on an internet forum is going to change how i see the world, at best they can get me to think about something i havnt thought about before or see it from a different angle
im very willing to change beliefs but the ones i have at this point in time have taken me awhile to think about and accept and for the time being until i come across something i find to make more sense or at least that resonates with me better im going to keep them

I can tell when someone's mind isnt going to be changed by anything I have to say. Just too bitter and just too deep. God will have to work with you on that one directly.

if you want bitter swanks i can fuckin well bring bitter but it wont add anything to the conversation
at no point in this thread have i felt bitter about anything
dont confuse my passion for a subject as bitterness and CERTAINLY dont turn your nose up at me for what i say on here because thats far too stereotypical of a christian, let "god" judge me on my way to hell and keep your uppity opinions on my mentality to yourself

 

[itsscience]

Crimzen, there was a successionist movement in WA years ago (maybe 80 years ago?) but it failed :(

Schwanke, your personal change argument is alluring in that it appeals to the spiritual side but I think it is naive about human nature and in particular it fails to account for the apathy shown by the vast majority of the population. There are, have been and will continue to be numerous christian bands but they never have and never will change the world. God, if there is one, is not an interventionalist and he/she/it won't change anyone, he/she/it has left it all up to us. Pretty words and wise philosophies won't change the system from the ancient philosophers to the current day philosophers have completely failed to change any of the systems that we live under.

Greg is right that we are dealing with a system that is the product of countless generations of human experience and that is why the fight is so difficult. That is why practical options need to be put forth to change the system and it is something I have not seen offered by very many people at all.

 

[Crimzen]

there was a successionist movement in WA years ago (maybe 80 years ago?) but it failed

yea i thought so
and lol of course it failed or we'd be living in the republic of western australia :P
WA has the majority of natural resources in aus and beside that the sheer size is almost half the size of the whole country and bigger than most countries in the world!
with such a massive coastline to live on (or a desert city or 2) we could easily survive as an independant nation
not that theres much reason to i guess

in an ideal world there wouldnt be such an enormous population of people and we could all live in much smaller and closer groups
trading with other groups what we have in abundance for what we have little of
in this ideal world people wouldnt feel the need to dominate the group or to take control instead we would learn to live in harmony with one another and our environment
however we dont like in an ideal world and unless theres some kind of cataclysmic catastrophe we'll have to work around the problems we have
it would be much easier if people were more willing and ready for change but people get stuck in their ways and think its nonsense to try any other way

 

[itsscience]

Crimzen, there's plenty of reason to succeed:

1. Mining royalties could be used to abolish most taxes for West Australian's including income tax (but I suggest we keep the GST);

2. There would be so much wealth created from mining royalties that as well as abolishing taxes, millions and millions of dollars could be put towards renewable energy research and generation such that WA could become the centre of renewable energy;

3. We could begin to deregulate the lives of West Australians so that we had more individual freedoms.

Need I go on.

All it takes to start a political party is 500 members and a few hundered dollars.

I've been thinking about this for a long time.

 

[Schwanke668]

Crimzen, there was a successionist movement in WA years ago (maybe 80 years ago?) but it failed :(

Schwanke, your personal change argument is alluring in that it appeals to the spiritual side but I think it is naive about human nature and in particular it fails to account for the apathy shown by the vast majority of the population. There are, have been and will continue to be numerous christian bands but they never have and never will change the world. God, if there is one, is not an interventionalist and he/she/it won't change anyone, he/she/it has left it all up to us. Pretty words and wise philosophies won't change the system from the ancient philosophers to the current day philosophers have completely failed to change any of the systems that we live under.

Greg is right that we are dealing with a system that is the product of countless generations of human experience and that is why the fight is so difficult. That is why practical options need to be put forth to change the system and it is something I have not seen offered by very many people at all.

Well I agree that the vast majority does have appathy but I also believe that anyone and everyone that is presented with a better idea, if the idea is good enough and better enough will atleast CONSIDER the change, even if only for a moment. But sometimes that moment is all someone needs to make a life course correction. Might start as a spark that sits there for months or years and then comes out of no where and hits you in the head. In Christian circles its usually called planting seeds but its also called that in other circles as well. Sometimes they lay dormant waiting for that right moment while some sprout right away.

As for never changing the world. I think that even small change changes the world. Even if these bands or any band not just Christian changes the world view for 20 people, those 20 people have friends and family that they could change and so on. Sure it may disipate but then like I said meme's and viral video's do the oposite.

I mean look at Billy Graham for example. He's been preaching the exact same message for what 50+ years now? Hasnt 'changed' or 'updated' his beliefs. I dont even agree with all of them, but he still attracts thousands plus to every crusade. Even discussions of whether or not any of them 'change' for real asside, the fact that so many people show up to see someone like that says that there is enough of a cultural desire for that type of 'entertainment' as there is for the latest eminem concert which means somebody somewhere is having an impact in that arena no pun intended.

As for God being an interventionalist. God changes hearts at the basic root level. He interacts with us in the small things, daily things, he isnt someone that sees the point in dropping 'spiritual bombs' like floods and so forth anymore because he knows that the world has as you said become too callous and apathetic. Too many scientists with too many theories to explain away floods and drouts and so forth. Even something like him showing up on a gigantic cloud in the middle of sky people would probably write off as a mutate of the arora borealis or something.

He is an interventionalist in the small things but thats because he is interested in individual people who are interested in him and only in changing people that want to be changed. Its as Billy Graham's daughter said on a tv show once. God is a gentlemen, you tell him to leave and he'll leave, you want him to leave you alone and he will. But then dont come complaining when you go 'Where is God when you need him?" You just told him to get lost!

So yeah he doesnt intervene in the world cuz the world doesnt want it. But it does intervene in individual people when the indvidual people want it.

 

[Crimzen]

I'm backin out of this conversation. Its going no where, atleast for me

man...
what are you even talking about now?
stop shitting in this thread, its not about god
make another thread to drop your propaganda and nonsense so that i can avoid it and keep reading this one

He interacts with us in the small things, daily things, he isnt someone that sees the point in dropping 'spiritual bombs' like floods and so forth anymore because he knows that the world has as you said become too callous and apathetic. Too many scientists with too many theories to explain away floods and drouts and so forth. Even something like him showing up on a gigantic cloud in the middle of sky people would probably write off as a mutate of the arora borealis or something.

You talk about god as if you know his mind
'spiritual bombs' like floods and so forth? im pretty sure that shit still happens and if god is infact god then he is the one causing them...

So yeah he doesnt intervene in the world cuz the world doesnt want it. But it does intervene in individual people when the indvidual people want it.

bull shit
the majority of people DO want it
and he DOESNT help the people who want it, the opposite of what you said is true
for example all the people who are dying or struggling or impoverished and praying to god to solve their problems generally dont get their problems solved

if god really was the cure all people claim he can be then everyone would have realized it and there wouldnt be a person on earth who wasnt a christian and there wouldnt be a problem

i believe in a god that is the universe and all of the forces and laws of physics and forms of light and matter
not a god that sits on his throne in heaven fucking with the lives of the little ants that he created

i have alot more to say but i cant be bothered because no one is going to change anyones view on this matter

 

[Schwanke668]

I'm backin out of this conversation. Its going no where, atleast for me

man...
what are you even talking about now?
stop shitting in this thread, its not about god
make another thread to drop your propaganda and nonsense so that i can avoid it and keep reading this one

Ok. I'll bite for the moment. See if I can keep from gettin bitchy about it.

Your claiming you want me to walk away from the conversation yet you keep responding to the conversation. There is an old internet saying 'Dont feed the trolls!". If you think I am 'trolling' and producing conversations that you dont want me to talk about then dont reply! I'll shut up and go away!

Its about control. If you dont say anything then there is nothing I can respond to. If I didnt reply to this you wouldnt be able to reply to my reply (but now you will).

[quote:32e60vsw] He interacts with us in the small things, daily things, he isnt someone that sees the point in dropping 'spiritual bombs' like floods and so forth anymore because he knows that the world has as you said become too callous and apathetic. Too many scientists with too many theories to explain away floods and drouts and so forth. Even something like him showing up on a gigantic cloud in the middle of sky people would probably write off as a mutate of the arora borealis or something.

You talk about god as if you know his mind
'spiritual bombs' like floods and so forth? im pretty sure that shit still happens and if god is infact god then he is the one causing them...
[/quote:32e60vsw]

I know a good portion of his mind as I have been talking to him non stop going on about 10 years now give or take. Used to be irritating at first but I got used to it. (Insert conversations about insanity from hearing voices here. Insert defense about all my doctor's having no problem with it here.)

As for floods I was refering to Noah's Ark one. Not current ones. Current ones are natural disasters from siesmic events and the like. Ask the scientists! Heck he DOESNT do that now because they would just chalk it up as a siesmic event and there would be no spiritual benefit to it even if all he did was wash away all the houses and 'reset' the system and leave all the humans and animals alive.

[quote:32e60vsw]So yeah he doesnt intervene in the world cuz the world doesnt want it. But it does intervene in individual people when the indvidual people want it.

bull shit
the majority of people DO want it
and he DOESNT help the people who want it, the opposite of what you said is true
for example all the people who are dying or struggling or impoverished and praying to god to solve their problems generally dont get their problems solved

if god really was the cure all people claim he can be then everyone would have realized it and there wouldnt be a person on earth who wasnt a christian and there wouldnt be a problem
[/quote:32e60vsw]

"Health" and "life" and "pain" are piddly in comparison to the true problems in life. That of love and fear. (Insert attack about "you dont know what pain is" "Insert response about having over 10 people die in my life in the space of one year. Of being declared legally insane TWICE of being hospitalized several times.") But people are so caught up in their 'love' of the wrong things and 'fear' of the wrong things that when God talks to them about love and fear of the right things they cant hear him and then blame him for not talking to them.

God talks to us all the time and guides us all the time but because WE think we know whats best for us and because he doesnt do what we want him to do (GOD DO THIS THIS WAY OR YOUR NOT GOD) then we claim he doesnt exist.

As soon as we claim God isnt doing it right we are saying we know better then God and we are claiming that we are God and already headed down the wrong road to hear him. Its the HUMILITY that allows us to hear God. Its accepting the fact that HE is GOD and we are NOT, that HE is omniscient and we are NOT. Soon as we say "God didnt take my pain away he's a bad God." Or "God didnt stop my house from catching fire he's a bad God" then we have totally missed the point on who God is and what he does and why he does it.

i believe in a god that is the universe and all of the forces and laws of physics and forms of light and matter
not a god that sits on his throne in heaven fucking with the lives of the little ants that he created

Hence the comments that I made in the other thread about visceral reactions. This is emotional. This isnt psychological. Your using the 'theories' and 'defenses' of 'science' to hide the fact that your just plain fucking pissed off at God. Just try and answer the question: "Am I pissed off at God?" Thats the only one that matters. Until your done being pissed off at God there is nothing anyone can do for you. Emotions have to run their course.

i have alot more to say but i cant be bothered because no one is going to change anyones view on this matter

That was pretty much why I stopped posting in this thread. If you wanna keep going I may or may not respond at my discression but my mind isnt going to be changed by what you have to say and if you believe that yours wont be changed remotely by what I have to say then there really isnt much point in continuing the conversation and we are better off talking about other things that are less antagonistic.

 

[Crimzen]

wow man
just wow
your either
A) a dirty troll
B) metally retarded
C) actually insane

im trying not to reply but i feel the need to do so...

Your claiming you want me to walk away from the conversation yet you keep responding to the conversation. There is an old internet saying 'Dont feed the trolls!". If you think I am 'trolling' and producing conversations that you dont want me to talk about then dont reply! I'll shut up and go away!

no i never told you to leave the conversation, just stop changing the topic of the thread
in fact YOU were the one who said you were 'backing out of this conversation, its going nowhere"
it seems you consistently try to turn something you said around to seem as if its what I wanted the whole time, maybe this is what you're doing with god

I know a good portion of his mind as I have been talking to him non stop going on about 10 years now give or take.

like i said, you're either a troll or your mentally handicapped

As for floods I was refering to Noah's Ark one. Not current ones. Current ones are natural disasters from siesmic events and the like. Ask the scientists! Heck he DOESNT do that now because they would just chalk it up as a siesmic event and there would be no spiritual benefit to it even if all he did was wash away all the houses and 'reset' the system and leave all the humans and animals alive

honestly man, do you REALLY think that some guy made a ship big enough to fit 2 of every animal on earth into by himself? if this were the case all the animals would be extinct by now anyway due to inbreeding. ffs.
a flood is not a seismic event btw, an earthquake is.

Hence the comments that I made in the other thread about visceral reactions. This is emotional. This isnt psychological. Your using the 'theories' and 'defenses' of 'science' to hide the fact that your just plain fucking pissed off at God. Just try and answer the question: "Am I pissed off at God?" Thats the only one that matters. Until your done being pissed off at God there is nothing anyone can do for you. Emotions have to run their course.

THIS is just fucking retarded
theories and defences of science? no not really... physics are real...you can see them work..
im not hiding anything, im not pissed off at god im pissed off that so many people are so fucking retarded that they actually fall for this bullshit
i cant be pissed off at something that i dont believe is real...that would be dumb, like being pissed off with a leprechaun because he wont give me gold.
there is nothing that anyone can do for me? first of all i dont want anyone to do anything FOR me and secondly, fuck off u arrogant troll

Last of all i'd like to say that now this nonsense is out of the way i've found out alot more about you and to be honest im surprised and disappointed, i had you all wrong, no wonder..

 

[Schwanke668]

im trying not to reply but i feel the need to do so...

Well I think your better off not replying then replying so I will help with that by not responding atleast for the moment. Maybe if I read it again later I'll respond to parts of it or maybe you'll post your more favorite points in a different thread at some point but for now I am not responding under the idea that you would rather not respond but dont seem to have the self control not to.

 

[Crimzen]

*sigh* my self control is fine
i just felt the need to reply...if i truly didnt want to then i wouldnt
do you have to get the last word in schwanke?
i'm not going to reply any further on anything that isnt related to the actual topic
im pretty sure the thread is dead now..

 

[Schwanke668]

*sigh* my self control is fine
i just felt the need to reply...if i truly didnt want to then i wouldnt
do you have to get the last word in schwanke?
i'm not going to reply any further on anything that isnt related to the actual topic
im pretty sure the thread is dead now..

I do have a tendancy to get the last word in but generally only when people insist on replying to what I have to say lol. For the most part if someone responds to someone else I leave em alone.

And as I posted in the other thread I think this thread should die. Too many hot button topics all at once and way to hard to sort out. We both kinda derailed it together and now its at a dead end and I really dont wanna try and find out whats on the other side of this brick wall lol.

*EDIT*
Actually I realized there are quite a large number of topics where I dont respond to get the last word in because I feel the response that I would give wouldnt be beneficial to anyone. Just sometimes these few threads go back and forth pointless until someone finally gives up lol.

 

[Crimzen]

well in that case i suggest you give up because i insist on getting the last word in
8)

 

[itsscience]

I know a good portion of his mind

This is perhaps one of the most arrogant things I've ever heard anyone say. If there is a god then this being is so amazingly complex and powerful that no one could know his mind because it would be unintelligible to us. I know you're a believer in Jesus but even he didn't profess to know god's mind - "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?" but we know now that he didn't forsake him, Jesus just didn't know his plan. It's said in the bible that a human would be destroyed merely by looking at god so imagine what would happen if you could know his mind :shock:

Schwanke you have a tendency to derail every thread you get involved in into a religious discussion. This is a site for psychonauts not for godonauts. Back off with the religion or go and find a site for god botherers. :roll: