STOP scapegoating Timothy Leary and the Counterculture!!

[zezt]

(HI , this is my first, but passionate post )

yesterday at Youtube, I watched a video--recent one--of Rick Doblin, of MAPS, giving a talk. In it he implies that Timothy Leary and the 'Counterculture' were irresponsible in that they caused the very long prohibition which he, Rick/MAPS and others have been painstakingly trying to end by 'not attempting to separate themselves from the prevailing culture.

Now, this pissed me right off! I mean..l...OK, I appreciate Rick's efforts and all that, but am sick and tired hear Tim Leary's name being used to blame for the prohibition. And adding the whole counterculture.

I don't know where to start. For one, Rick says that part of his journey was he began wanting to be an underground psychedelic chemist and therapist, then later he goes and does a PhD so as to further his clout for his baby MAPS.

I kinda think that our Rick has mabe over concentrated on his selection of books and missed the bigger picture. Which is this culture. Which is a warmongering culture run by ruthless profiteers!! That errrr maybe that had something to do with the ruling class of this culture not wanting alternative ways of living. After all didn't their ancestors do genocide/ecocide on the Native American peoples. How can Rick fail to understand this? And blames people who in INTELLIGENCE did not want to be part of that?

Watching Rick talk it was all a bit smiley smiley, not wanting to offend---not wanting to rock any boats, and I think he said 'ask their permission' several times too--ie., the ones of this culture who take it upon thmselves to tell adults what they can and cannot ingest!

before I go on. I would be very interested in peoples throughts here about this?

 

[GOD]

HALELUJA BROTHER !!! The sun didnt shine out of his arse , Leary was leary and without him we wouldnt have LSD , nor would Ricky boy . Hes sold out . He pays police agents to do drug research . Hes forgoten his roots = US . How the nose wanders away from the arse when theres money in sight ?

We need to be positivly critical and objective and not just acept everything we get fed about things by "experts" .

 

[Meduzz]

I think Doblin is right. As posted by someone I don't remember in an old thread:

It was something like: Leary and LSD was like the first human to discover fire. He reached for it and burned his hand....

 

[Forkbender]

Welcome zezt! Enjoy the forum.

I guess Rick's point is that you cannot counter a warmongering culture without becoming part of it, you can only do your own thing and not let yourself be defined by the culture that you push yourself off against. There was irresponsible use in the sixties that caused people in power to get scared of hippies, precisely because they were not just being irresponsible, but also openly against the values of mainstream society. There was also responsible use, but this is never interesting for mainstream media/politics. If you look at our current situation: it took only one irresponsible French girl to get mushrooms banned in the Netherlands. Prohibition never just falls out of the air, there always has to be a (rational or irrational) 'reason'. A 'ruling class' means nothing without people succumbing to this rule.

I can understand Rick's point. He looks back on history and sees that we made some amazing discoveries that could have changed the world for the better. But what people did with it was mostly egotripping, just for their own good instead of that of the world. A lot of people just wanted to get high.

 

[GOD]

But his nose IS to far from his arse , hes forgotten his roots , and he does fund police agents . Hes not fighting for us , leary was one of us , Doblin just wants to play chemical post offices .

 

[random]

And from what I know one of us that was a bit irresponsible.

He should ear what huxley told him about LSD. That should be introduced to society in a lightly way and the impact that would have, and had, if he continued with his intentions.

 

[druglessdouglas]

ken kesey probably didnt help much with the counter culture image. or yoko ono

 

[Meduzz]

He should ear what huxley told him about LSD.

+ the same with Hoffman right?

Edit: I see my post can be interpreted wrongly. (thank you random)
I meant that Hoffman, just like Huxley was concerned about leary's approach as seems from LSD-my problem child.

I didn't mean that Hoffman should have listened to Huxley

 

[zezt]

HALELUJA BROTHER !!! The sun didnt shine out of his arse , Leary was leary and without him we wouldnt have LSD , nor would Ricky boy . Hes sold out . He pays police agents to do drug research . Hes forgoten his roots = US . How the nose wanders away from the arse when theres money in sight ?

We need to be positivly critical and objective and not just acept everything we get fed about things by "experts" .

ahaaaa, I seem to have 'GOD' on my side. That's cool

serious though. THANKS for your diggin me about this. Which dont mean I cant take those who dont agree

 

[Jahvisions]

I totally disagree.

The first thing is: how responsible is it to give little childeren LSD while you don't know what the effects are for people still develeping mentally en phisically?

Why then Albert Hoffmann, a person who used it many times himself and believed LSD is of great value when used properly advised his company Sandoz to don't sell LSD at Leary?

There were two different groups(in general): one like hoffmann and Huxley who said to keep the use only under a small group as tool for mental and spiritual research for yourself, and Leary at the other side who thought that everyone should use it.

The biggest argument against him is that he told the story to beautifull without telling much of the real dangers.

I think LSD is not a toy for recreational use but a tool when used carefully, can bring you important insight of your (un)consious and help you get a better life.

 

[zezt]

Welcome zezt! Enjoy the forum.

I guess Rick's point is that you cannot counter a warmongering culture without becoming part of it, you can only do your own thing and not let yourself be defined by the culture that you push yourself off against. There was irresponsible use in the sixties that caused people in power to get scared of hippies, precisely because they were not just being irresponsible, but also openly against the values of mainstream society. There was also responsible use, but this is never interesting for mainstream media/politics. If you look at our current situation: it took only one irresponsible French girl to get mushrooms banned in the Netherlands. Prohibition never just falls out of the air, there always has to be a (rational or irrational) 'reason'. A 'ruling class' means nothing without people succumbing to this rule.

I can understand Rick's point. He looks back on history and sees that we made some amazing discoveries that could have changed the world for the better. But what people did with it was mostly egotripping, just for their own good instead of that of the world. A lot of people just wanted to get high.

Thanks Forkbender

I see it that the big part of the downfall of the 'counterculture' which I actually dont think went anywhere but more underground was the blatant backlash from a culture which is actualllt based on a death culture. Skull and Bones...? let us always remember the bigger picture, and what we are up against. And no blame folk heros who try and be bold and encourage liberation for all, instead of 'secret mystery schools for elites' and patronizing people.

IF the prevauiling culture felt SO dearly for the unfortunate ones who jump of bridges, murder people, run over people, etc etc etc, they woulda banned BOOZE long time ago. But they do not. because these profiteers are making lots of money out of it, depend on its dumbing down potential.....see? So I do not believe for one minute the BS they give out.

Of course we have to educate ourselves and others about the infinite potential of psychedelics, and the deep respect Indigenous peoples have had for them, and we must have. As far as I am aware Tim, and many people from the 'counterculture' very much felt this way.

 

[BrainEater]

i guess there was an "original" revolution after the 2nd war FOR HUMANITY and not against it .... i guess timothy leary and other guys and probably all hippies were and maybe still are part of it ...

but as time goes on things change and people that were there earlier might have changed their minds to confusion and not gone with the flow ...

i think there are many 'countercultures' maybe more as there are 'cultures'... and maybe cultures are like the reflections of counter-counter-bla-cultures??
i mean countercultures are culture anyways...

i think the blaming of stuff that happened in the past is part of a counterculture to the 'original' revolution...

unfortunately the revolution hasn*t ended until now, but that is also a good thing that means that it is still in progress... the bad news is that the """evil""" doesn't sleep.

peace.

 

[magickmumu]

I agree that there is no need for scapegoating anyone. I have the feeling that Leary was a bit to radical and irresponsible. He was a pleasure seeker and got to much carried away by the whole thing. Timothy Leary's life story is a strange one. There are lot of myths about this man.
He wrote some great books.

 

[Forkbender]

I see it that the big part of the downfall of the 'counterculture' which I actually dont think went anywhere but more underground was the blatant backlash from a culture which is actualllt based on a death culture. Skull and Bones...? let us always remember the bigger picture, and what we are up against. And no blame folk heros who try and be bold and encourage liberation for all, instead of 'secret mystery schools for elites' and patronizing people.

IF the prevauiling culture felt SO dearly for the unfortunate ones who jump of bridges, murder people, run over people, etc etc etc, they woulda banned BOOZE long time ago. But they do not. because these profiteers are making lots of money out of it, depend on its dumbing down potential.....see? So I do not believe for one minute the BS they give out.

Of course we have to educate ourselves and others about the infinite potential of psychedelics, and the deep respect Indigenous peoples have had for them, and we must have. As far as I am aware Tim, and many people from the 'counterculture' very much felt this way.

If you want to look at the bigger picture, you also have to look at geopolitical/economic/moral forces, and not just to some small elite that can't do shit without serious backing up by public opinion and big business.

 

[st.bot.32]

I think he could have been a bit more responsible (hindsight is 20/20), but his basic reasoning of bringing psychedelics to the people was a correct one. Hoffman and others, by leaving such powerful tools in the hands of the elite to be used for very limited purposes, would never have fully explored the amazing potential of LSD.

I wouldn't want a world where psychedelics were only a tool in the hands of those who have power. That would be frightening.

In any case, if there hadn't been a Timothy Leary, there probably would have been someone else. LSD, and psychedelics in general is probably one of the more amazing discoveries of humankind, and there is just no way it could have been held back for long, anymore than the invention of say the telephone.

 

[zezt]

I think he could have been a bit more responsible (hindsight is 20/20), but his basic reasoning of bringing psychedelics to the people was a correct one. Hoffman and others, by leaving such powerful tools in the hands of the elite to be used for very limited purposes, would never have fully explored the amazing potential of LSD.

I wouldn't want a world where psychedelics were only a tool in the hands of those who have power. That would be frightening.

In any case, if there hadn't been a Timothy Leary, there probably would have been someone else. LSD, and psychedelics in general is probably one of the more amazing discoveries of humankind, and there is just no way it could have been held back for long, anymore than the invention of say the telephone.

Its a real BIG QUESTIOn this. hmmmmm. I wonder about Indigenous cultures. Is it the shaman who usually says who can and cannot have access to psychedelics...? Just saying everyone agreed that was how it was. is that for EVERY tradition? And just say that was so is that right?

Thats why i see this as a vast question.

I mean who has the say, the authorrity to say who can and cannot have access to psychedelic vegetation? and/or psychedelic substances, concoctions of any kind?

IF the argument is that only the medical profession should have access to it, and administer it, well what about their shocking history of abuse?(ie, the history of psychiatry and psychology)...? Are we not to notice that history and just conform to their authority?

What is the most intelligent way for free access of psychedelics for everyone but with deep respect for their use?

because lets face it. Despite this prohibition from 60s people have been able to get psychedelics and use them......so?

 

[st.bot.32]

Cultures often use psychedelics for specific rituals rather than on say the first Saturday afternoon that comes up in a while where they have some free time and are in a good mood.

Even though there aren't too many shamans around in the developed world, I would certainly hope that those who are introduced to psychedelics for the first time nowadays would do so accompanied by people who are experienced and knowledgeable.

To play devil's advocate for a moment as well, I don't see having a shaman around as necessarily a good thing either. The shaman will guide you down a very specific path of exploration, which may drastically alter how you would have personally reacted to the psychedelic and what you would have gotten out of it otherwise. Especially if the guidance is based on his/her own religious beliefs. (Now if you are deliberately exploring those beliefs, that's different, but I digress..) Medical use of psychedelics is interesting--it sounds like the environment is usually a bed, with music and an eye covering, a somewhat limited glimpse into the potential of the substances, and I can imagine some people having pretty bad reactions or feeling claustrophobic in such circumstances..

I don't see psychedelics ever being legal to the general public. At most, maybe with a prescription someday, in limited quantities.. if say for example taking psilocybin/LSD for cluster migraines turns out to be the best treatment.

 

[Vlad]

"What do you want?"

"Guns. Lots of guns."

Why?

Because power is always enforced by phsyical pain.

If Leary and co had a Hezbollah backing their philosophy the world mighta have looked different.

 

[Vlad]

Those in power have the population backing up their authority, because the population works for all the structures that keep them in power.
No farmers, no food.
No labourers in the mines, no metals.
No gas no coal, no industry
No metals, no industry, no weapons.
No food, no happy police.
No police, no army, no guns, no control.

Who do you think sustains the system? That's right. Common folks who work everyday. And why are psychedelics so bad in that context? Because most common folk aren't too bright or mentally evolved and wouldn't be able to cope with a trip. It would destabilize structures. More hippies to get stoned doesn't sustain the system.

 

[magickmumu]

"What do you want?"

"Guns. Lots of guns."

Why?

Because power is always enforced by phsyical pain.

If Leary and co had a Hezbollah backing their philosophy the world mighta have looked different.

There where some radical groups in the sixties who indeed had access to guns.
The radical left weatherman organization, was responsible for a couple of bombing action.
The same organization helped Leary escape prison.
Some groups (like the provos in the Netherlands) wanted to use LSD as a weapon.
In the sixties psychedelics got mixed up with politics.

I don't think psychedelics are about power or politics.
The power that is enforced by guns and psychical pain, is no real power. Or another way to say it, not the power I am looking for.