polyamory

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Polyamory (which refers to a long term relationship, not to having threesomes whenever you get the chance) isn't necessarily fun.

 

[Psyolopher]

Polyamory (which refers to a long term relationship, not to having threesomes whenever you get the chance) isn't necessarily fun.

Its fun as long you get satisfied! :lol:

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

And don't feel remorse if the weaker person falls in the face and gets ridiculed subconsciously ? :P

 

[Psyolopher]

And don't feel remorse if the weaker person falls in the face and gets ridiculed subconsciously ? :P

Maybe that can be fun to! :lol:
lol, sorry dont try to argument with me...im feeling abit funny today! :D
Just spreading my energy around! :D

 

[Sumgai]

I'm poly, though right now the only long term partner I have is my husband. We're not exclusive though, so there are other friends we have sex with sometimes.

I'd say I definitely fall in the group of people who are just inherently wired a certain way. I never went looking for this, I just came to the conclusion after trying the standard monogamous route that it wasn't for me (and yes I was faithful during that relationship). Ironically I've gotten less flak from being bisexual than being poly, since these days people are kind of getting used to the former idea but the latter is still this big horrible taboo. Despite the fact that the norm now seems to be "serial monogamy with random bouts of cheating" which I prefer to call "polyamory done inefficiently".

A lot of people think it's some greed thing that I just can't commit to someone and settle down etc. That's actually not the reason at all. Granted I enjoy being with others, but that's not what I consider the primary motivation. I just find it extremely uncomfortable being in a relationship where I'm someone's only potential sexual outlet. I refuse to date someone else who's only interested in me, because I don't like the pressure of having to be the only solution.

The chances that two people are going to line up exactly perfectly and complementary with their interests in what they want to do is really really small. The chances it'll stay that way for a long time is almost laughable. So when someone you love wants something you're not into, there's really only a few options. One is to just forbid it, and hope they don't cheat (see how far that gets most people). Another is to fake it, usually badly, which can leave them feeling unsatisfied and you feeling inadequate. And the third is to let them find someone else to handle that for them. I tend to think number 3 is the best option. Your mileage may vary. I'm not saying everyone should do this, it's just how I see it and it works for me so far.

For some cases, it may not even be possible for you to provide it. For example, I'm a type II bi, which means I have 2 independent sex drives. No one male or female is ever going to be a 100% fit. And hermaphrodites are so rare as to not really even be worth considering. So what are the options for that kind of case? Give one up forever? How many people are going to give up sex forever voluntarily? I'm not! So what then, just pretend I'm "normal" and cheat all the time and hope it doesn't destroy years of my life with someone? Umm no that's not going to work either. So I wind up here.

Some people think the jealousy issue is too difficult, but I really don't find it bothers me. I don't consider sex to be the primary focus of our relationship (though it remains awesome), because I know what we get from each other is considerably more than that. If it wasn't, I'd suspect deeper problems. So the idea that they're going to leave me for something that shallow is laughable. And for something deep enough to be a serious threat to appear without me noticing it, I'd have to be so oblivious as to not care about the relationship anymore anyway.

Someday I hope to find some other people to have something long term with. I'm wary of going to 3 since I've seen too many relationships dissolve into 2 vs 1 fights, but I've known groups of 4 and higher that were stable. For now it's pretty good with us and some good friends on the side now and then.

P.S. As for LGBT issues, I'm wary of any explanation that doesn't take into account its prevalence in other species and differences in brain structures.

P.P.S. If you're going to model your life on Hydrogen, wouldn't the diatomic nature imply homosexuality is the norm then? Or is that more like 2 males and 2 females sharing (covalent bond to 2 electrons)? How do the neutrons fit in again?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Despite the fact that the norm now seems to be "serial monogamy with random bouts of cheating" which I prefer to call "polyamory done inefficiently".

I dig that. Nice post in general.

P.S. As for LGBT issues, I'm wary of any explanation that doesn't take into account its prevalence in other species and differences in brain structures.

Well, whether human or beast, we all have to pass through the narrow birth canal, so these issues may indeed reflect in the animal kingdom too. However, outside zoos, juvenile experimentation, sex for dominance and other temporary activities, you won't find long term homosexual relationships in nature.

 

[flakey]

Awesome post, Sumgai! I relate to a lot of it (though till now more in theory then in experience)!

I am currently married in a monogamous relationship, though I am becoming increasingly unhappy. I still love my wife and even though she has flaws, I still find her an incredible person with many qualities, a beautiful soul. I have always been faithful for years, even living months away from her.

Problem is, she is very jealous, competetive with other females, terrified of me cheating on her, which exherts an unnecessary pressure on me, specially because I am faithful as probably no other man, and I feel like I have to constantly justify myself or be careful that she doesnt see me talking to girls or whatever. If im watching a movie that has a sex scene and she comes in the room, she is already all worried "Is this porn?!".

I told her many times that I wouldnt have a problem if she had something with another person, as long as the person had positive intentions. Nowadays guys are too crude.. But that this is all her decision, if and with who she wants to have sex/have a relationship, that she should do what her conscience tells her.

I believe in that cliche ¨if you love someone, set them free", and I live by it. I dont think I possess her or she posseses me. I think that more people can love each other without being a problem

But she cannot understand it, she says she could never say the same for me, she couldnt stand thinking of me being with another girl and so on.. She said she wouldnt want to be with someone else either.

The point is, I think she isnt necessarily monogamous in her essence either, but she was brought up to believe in, through her family and through tv (she always watched typical brainwashing romantic comedies where the myth of the perfect couple is always played). Together with social conditioning, I think the other main factor is a self esteem problem. If she was sure of herself, she wouldnt feel threatened by other women. Its all a pity because this all makes it a problematic relationship, even though exactly without this it would be amazing, because I see how beautiful she is inside and I wish she would see it herself also and be free. She is affraid of taking psychedelics, never did and doesnt want. She accepts that I do, but doesnt consider herself. She would just become so much better if she would just 'let go' of all this fear

She once, in a rare moment of personal liberation, said she wanted to be with someone else.. Not someone specific, but she would just like to experience someone else. I reiterated what I felt and if she wanted she was free, but her social conditioning of daily life turned her back into saying "I couldnt imagine being with someone else"..


So I think eventually im gonna have to separate from her, at least for some time, but I still will be open to having something throughout my whole life with her if she ever becomes less possessive. I would love to share my life with her, help each other grow, but not being attached and obligated to be only with her, plus all the unnecessary emotional trouble that comes from the unrealistic demands.

Im no don juan who gets all the girls, not the macho tough protective guy that girls normally want... So to find someone else, and on top of it, someone who is open like this, is gonna be tough. Plus, I've never even done this so I dont know in practice how it would work. I love women and am mostly interested in them, do not feel specially attracted thinking of men, but who knows im open to try it sometime if its someone with conscience.. Would love mostly to be with a few enlightened girls that are happy with each other also, but then again, who wouldnt? haha (but of course if they wanted to be with someone else, no prob by me)

Ah, life. It just refuses to be simple.

 

[Sumgai]

I dig that. Nice post in general.

Thanks. Sometimes I think my tendency to generate walls of text must put a lot of people off, good to know someone reads it. :)

Well, whether human or beast, we all have to pass through the narrow birth canal, so these issues may indeed reflect in the animal kingdom too. However, outside zoos, juvenile experimentation, sex for dominance and other temporary activities, you won't find long term homosexual relationships in nature.

The birth canal's only narrow for us and our big heads. Outside of birds, you won't find too many long term relationships in general. Monogamy is a small minority in the world of animal behavior, around 3% in mammals I believe (and no we're not one of the species that tend to it naturally). But homosexuality has been documented in virtually all mammal (and more than a few non-mammal) species. See http://www.amazon.com/Biological-Exuber ... 31225377X/ it's an interesting read. There are also a few studies that show evidence of alternate neurological structure formation in the areas related to processing pheromone signals from the VNO, enough to warrant further investigation though I'm not sure if anyone is doing it.

Based on my personal experience I don't see how it would follow from a purely social conditioning route. Too many people I know struggled against it due to social mores and still failed to adapt to a heterosexual lifestyle. But I don't see how one could convey that sort of thing without firsthand experience. "Deprogramming" efforts that have been attempted have been almost universally unsuccessful and in many cases extremely harmful.

I suspect the dominance question is the source of much of the fear surrounding it in many people. We condition most males to believe they're going to be the ones "in charge" when it comes to sex, from an extremely early age. The idea of another male being present raises the question of who runs the show, and makes many people uncomfortable. But two females doesn't cause the same anxiety because the conditioned assumption is once a guy shows up he'll be the one in charge and the center of attention (which is often considered a hilarious assumption by most people who've ever been in that situation including me). Most straight guys I've known who were perfectly secure and well adjusted had little problem with another guy being around, because they didn't feel threatened. But such absolute security seems to be quite rare.

I don't like the idea of dominating someone else or being dominated by them, and that actually turns out to be a bit handicap in a lot of sexual relationships. It's one of the things my husband usually has to go to someone else for, since it's just really not my thing and I can't even pretend at it effectively most of the time.

 

[Sumgai]

The point is, I think she isnt necessarily monogamous in her essence either, but she was brought up to believe in, through her family and through tv (she always watched typical brainwashing romantic comedies where the myth of the perfect couple is always played). Together with social conditioning, I think the other main factor is a self esteem problem. If she was sure of herself, she wouldnt feel threatened by other women. Its all a pity because this all makes it a problematic relationship, even though exactly without this it would be amazing, because I see how beautiful she is inside and I wish she would see it herself also and be free. She is affraid of taking psychedelics, never did and doesnt want. She accepts that I do, but doesnt consider herself. She would just become so much better if she would just 'let go' of all this fear

I feel bad for both of you, it sounds like she really has some things she needs to think over and either decide she believes them or decides to reject them. Too many people just accept what they're told as kids and refuse to ever think about them critically or entertain the possibility they could be wrong or there may be alternatives, at least in their case.

I find women have as much trouble separating love from sex as men do separating dominance from sex. They're just hammered from age zero up that things are this way and that's the only way they can ever be and if you think otherwise then something's wrong with you.

I wish I had a suggestion but I can't think of anything that would help her. It does sound like the relationship won't be stable too long though. I never bet on any relationship lasting forever (people change which implies so does the relationship), though I often hope for them to last a long time. Some of my earlier relationships were with people who had similar hangups to what you describe hers as, and after getting burned I became more insistent about trying to match up attitudes about this sort of thing before getting too deeply involved. In one particularly bad case, the constant accusations of cheating or looking to cheat turned out to stem from the fact that they were cheating, and looking for a way to defend themselves if caught. Needless to say that one didn't work out.

Insecurity can do terrible things to people. The fact that she's afraid of psychedelics too makes me think she's constantly fighting against what she's been told is the "right" behavior and what she really wants, and that's one of the worst ways to torture yourself. I worry she's going to become really unhappy and there won't be anything you can do to help her. It's terrible watching someone you love go through something like that, it's like cancer.

People always try to tell you what path to take in life. What to say, what to wear, what to do for a living, what to believe, what to do and not do in the bedroom, what to consume or not consume. The whole package is called "the straight and narrow". Now personally I don't know where that road leads, but I can guarantee it is paved with the absolute best of intentions. You can spot people on it by the little handbaskets of justifications they weave around themselves to shut out the view of all the other ways they could go.

 

[st.bot.32]

The whole package is called "the straight and narrow". Now personally I don't know where that road leads, but I can guarantee it is paved with the absolute best of intentions. You can spot people on it by the little handbaskets of justifications they weave around themselves to shut out the view of all the other ways they could go.

Nicely said.. good posts here.

Looking back I realize I never believed in monogamy per se... even as a child

 

[endlessness]

nice thread :)

 

[flakey]

Once again beautifully said, Sumgai

It feels great to have input from someone who's more experienced in this and has a very conscious point of view... Gives me hope that some day I will also find others who share this and also feel that lovers dont possess each other. I really feel like I could give and receive love and be good and learn from and help grow with other people, with awareness, not just some swing sex kind of thing.

I think indeed that, unless something big happens, this break will have to come... A big change could be something like a psychedelic trip or her meeting a man and feeling undeniably attracted to him, and then if she does experiences someone else it would give her perspective.. Or maybe this break would be a learning experience..

I dont know, whatever it is, im gonna follow my conscience and try to do my best.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

nice thread :)

Heh, it's been tried before... :wink:

Definitely interesting insights posted here. I've mentioned it before, in a previous polyamory thread, that there seem to be two factors that tend to encourage polyamory: bisexuality and living in or near a place with lots of beautiful/interesting people around (like a commune, or a big city etc.). A third factor may be ideology: being inspired by the words of Rajneesh (Osho) for example.

My influences weren't such. I'm heterosexual, and throughout my childhood I listened to hundreds of love songs (Motown, Michael Jackson, Prince, Phil Collins etc.), which all reflected the sentiment of monogamy. When I then joined an Indian commune, I was told marriage is sacred an all that (this commune didn't like Osho's points of view). So I never had any experience with polyamory, nor anything that resembled it. I've had only three intimate relationships in my life (I'm 34 now). I don't drink alcohol and hardly ever go to parties, so the chance of ending up in some unexpected threesome is also pretty slim.

So for me, it seems polyamory isn't an option. Like I already said, at the moment I'm single, and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon. If, however, I ever befriend a girl who falls in love with me while also being in love with another woman, I do not think I would mind very much. Particularly because they could do things together (like watch TV or go shopping, or even have sex) while I focus on my things (work, hobbies, projects, kids, trips etc.). But really, I just can't find any woman I feel attracted to anymore, what to speak of two? It seems very unlikely that this will happen.

 

[Sumgai]

Well not everyone's really wired for it, just as not everyone's wired for straight/gay/bi/etc sex. The problem is the majority of us are conditioned heavily to believe there's only one acceptable form of lifestyle. There has been a lot of progress made on the front of acceptance for gays but I find little on the front of non-exclusive relationships. It's one of the things that really irritates me about our society, along with things such as how we can punish someone for a potential crime they might commit while under the influence of something (yet lethal firearms are an explicit right), or how the entire world seems to be geared towards forcing you to operate 7am-10pm M-F if you want any measure of success at all.

I think we've all got this pressure to be with someone pushed on us pretty hard, and a lot of people are really quick to just settle for the first person who they don't have outright fistfights with as "compatible enough". So things like wanting non-traditional relationships get pushed aside in those compromises people make out of this fear of winding up alone, which is kinda sad really.

 

[st.bot.32]

sumgai, what you said is so true. for much of my life my being wired towards the nontraditional filled me with guilt and seriously inhibited me from even bothering to seek out a relationship.. (I'm much better these days, but still learning, and healing a bit everyday)

if this has taught me anything, it's empathy for others. pretty much nothing wants to make me have a barfing fit more than some 'normal' person passing judgement on everyone who isn't wired the same way they are. at the same time, unlike some of the people I know who feel alienated by the mainstream, I try not to judge the mainstream per se, people are just attracted to what they are attracted to. the human race has a long way to go when it comes to learning tolerance, doesn't it.

wow, i'm ranting a bit now, this thread definitely pushed my buttons today :lol: (in a good way though!)

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

Oh indeed Sumgai ; its my experience that all men are born hetero-sexual ; and that they all seek the H2 covalent bonds with another couple.

Thats the only way water can derive more consciousness of pleasure when we spend most of our day in highly electro-magnetic environements...

I have a very unique view of relationships... to me the presence of another guy means more than just another penis, no pun intended.

It means that the person wishes to derive intuition, dreams and unseen worlds (etcetera...) from a more powerful source.

Alas it's hard to explain a matricial existance, most beleive it cannot be done ; although I experienced it. So I don't really know, I won't pretend to have a woman's brain to think it out. All I know is that I have seen and know that once a woman has had a resonant trans-harmonic breathing orgasm ; she does not crave sex for at least 2 days, she is in a perpetual orgasmic state and simply does not think about it. However very strangely it is also my experience that unsatisfied woman try to look and act like this all the time, this confuses alot of guys.

My relation right now is pretty open, it couldn't be more open actually, but we both know we are not promiscuous, so its not going to happen on a whim.

We are not into attachement, she knows she is free, and we talked about it and she understood my point of view. She does not yet seek to reach the resonant orgasm (mainly because it triggers lucid dreaming and lots of mental processes, loading up the mind) and she is aware of that, but she is also young and wants to go slowly and gracefully into this process. She is an awesome, intelligent woman, I never tought I'd meet someone like her again !

And thats what it is for me, if I am in shape, don't smoke cannabis and train for a month or so, I'd be able to satisfy 4 maybe 5 woman that have an actually healthy sex drive. So two men ? Seems like burning the candle from both ends to me... makes no sense at all... unless they like to touch each other, I guess, electrically speaking.

I don't really like that, because every guy in my life has been a total woman (I'm not including people I haven't met face to face yet) but all the guys I knew who we held a strong "brother' type relation in the past fucked me up over some woman, acting like what we used to despise philosophically while we were actively psychonauting.

Sorry if I seem to attribute this to "woman" but it has nothing to do with sex, rather the pejorative view that some unintelligent woman say one thing and do the opposite. NOT vice-verca in that case.

I hope I communicate clearly !

 

[magickpencil]

great posts Sumgai
couldn't agree more w the points you've made

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Djeez, I'm so slooow.... Just now I figured out the other, probably intended pronunciation of 'Sumgai'. For a couple of days I thought it was some sort of Asian name, and in my head pronounced it as 'soomghigh'.

 

[Sumgai]

Oh indeed Sumgai ; its my experience that all men are born hetero-sexual ; and that they all seek the H2 covalent bonds with another couple.

Thats the only way water can derive more consciousness of pleasure when we spend most of our day in highly electro-magnetic environements...

I have a very unique view of relationships... to me the presence of another guy means more than just another penis, no pun intended.

It means that the person wishes to derive intuition, dreams and unseen worlds (etcetera...) from a more powerful source.

Alas it's hard to explain a matricial existance, most beleive it cannot be done ; although I experienced it. So I don't really know, I won't pretend to have a woman's brain to think it out. All I know is that I have seen and know that once a woman has had a resonant trans-harmonic breathing orgasm ; she does not crave sex for at least 2 days, she is in a perpetual orgasmic state and simply does not think about it. However very strangely it is also my experience that unsatisfied woman try to look and act like this all the time, this confuses alot of guys.

My relation right now is pretty open, it couldn't be more open actually, but we both know we are not promiscuous, so its not going to happen on a whim.

We are not into attachement, she knows she is free, and we talked about it and she understood my point of view. She does not yet seek to reach the resonant orgasm (mainly because it triggers lucid dreaming and lots of mental processes, loading up the mind) and she is aware of that, but she is also young and wants to go slowly and gracefully into this process. She is an awesome, intelligent woman, I never tought I'd meet someone like her again !

And thats what it is for me, if I am in shape, don't smoke cannabis and train for a month or so, I'd be able to satisfy 4 maybe 5 woman that have an actually healthy sex drive. So two men ? Seems like burning the candle from both ends to me... makes no sense at all... unless they like to touch each other, I guess, electrically speaking.

I don't really like that, because every guy in my life has been a total woman (I'm not including people I haven't met face to face yet) but all the guys I knew who we held a strong "brother' type relation in the past fucked me up over some woman, acting like what we used to despise philosophically while we were actively psychonauting.

Sorry if I seem to attribute this to "woman" but it has nothing to do with sex, rather the pejorative view that some unintelligent woman say one thing and do the opposite. NOT vice-verca in that case.

I hope I communicate clearly !

I'm afraid I don't really see how the hydrogen analogy functions, but I suspect it's because my experiences are different from yours. I don't believe that renders it less valid, but just forgive me if I offend you by unintentionally misinterpreting it somehow.

Some of what you're saying reminds me a bit of tumesence theory, which I found to be a bit flawed. Mainly because it was based on this idea that women were "radiators" and men were "receivers" of some kind of energy that produced sexual drive. It had no reasonable explanation for attraction between two males or females or variant combinations or other paraphilia. But I'm not sure if that's really what you're talking about or not.

I'm curious what the "resonant trans-harmonic breathing orgasm" is like, and how it compares to some of mine. I've had multiple orgasms of up to the 9th order (9 distinct peaks) and I'm curious as to how it compares. Though it may be a bit hard to compare to a female's experience since I'm male. While it's satisfying it doesn't really stop me from being in the mood to experience more for 2 hours let alone 2 days. Most of the healthy females I know are similar, even after well over a dozen orgasms in a short span they're still in the mood relatively quickly. I'm usually good until physical exhaustion or even neurochemical exhaustion (oxytocin depletion I think), but the latter usually takes around 30 so usually I run out of energy physically first.

Have you ever tried cabergoline or another prolactin inhibitor? They can be fun.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

I made an obvious error... I meant to say that all men are born homo-sexual in our society, not necessarly in the world at large however, like lost tribes and such.

The resonant orgasm satisfies woman, but what satisfies a man is completely dependant on how he gears himself.

If a man pulls out a machinegun, he will expect to shoot alot, when a man loads up a bazooka, he's going to come once or twice hard enough and be satisfied. Crude analogy I know, but thats kinda how it goes in the abysmal seas... men often shoot at each other, it's part of the statut quo.

Although we're not machines, thats why I don't support the use of drugs to enhance sex so much, maybe your prolactin inhibitor can be fun, but if you asked me I'd probably set the safe limit so low you'd say its not fun. But it might be fun for me, or any man that keeps sensitivity an important part of his ego-soul relation. To me its sad to see the pheronome organ in some people being completely numb, or over indulging... it's a kind of deevolution, or undead feasting paradigm.

It's my experience that men satisfaction only resides in a powerful orgasmic wave balanced with wisdom and temperance, the satisfaction from "surviving" an intense experience is much more fulfilling than being "performant" which is a big clue of the complicity of the engeneers and architects of society.

There is multiple orgasm however, much longer and powerful... for woman the satisfaction that comes from this type of acceleration-compression hydrogen bonding culmination is too powerful to experience more than once or twice, more would result in terrible cramps.

Please do not make love until chemical exhaustion, it might permanently damage your endocrine epigenetic markers, turning the flow of enzymes towards an unsustainable state. No homeostasis, no peaceful and self-puryfying waters... Please do not ejaculate more than once or twice if you're young in one love session, sperm remaining in the seminal vesicles is important for endocrine regeneration. The man multiple orgasms are long and not in peaks, then two minutes later another orgasm may happen, this can happen a maximum of 4-7 times in a young person before the little death, which is really not good. One love session should never last more than 2 hours, but it should be packed with life, so to speak. Then the energy will be raised and orgasms will be experienced for the man during 2-3 days without needing sex, music will do it, the breeze will do it... you know, sex is not meant to be a drug or an outlet for emotion... as you said.