Quoi de neuf ?

Bienvenue sur Psychonaut.fr !

En vous enregistrant, vous pourrez discuter de psychotropes, écrire vos meilleurs trip-reports et mieux connaitre la communauté

Je m'inscris!

open minded?

Faust

Elfe Mécanique
Inscrit
11 Nov 2006
Messages
380
GOD a dit:
I think everybody has forgoten somethings . As i said the only objective fact is that "I" exist ( weather the "I" who is thinking is the "I" that is me or the "I" that is you......) , that is the only undenyable truth , all the other things that
go through my / your consciousness are............going through my / your consciousness = subjective . No one can be said to be 100% open minded or objective untill he has been asked every question and proved his openmindedness / objectivity in every case . So we are generalising . Open mindedness and objectivity are goals that we can only try to reach . So we are waisting our time talking about them as absolutes . Realisticaly we as individuals can only judge ..... subjectivly.....or as groups if an idea , action or thought was / is objective or open minded .

I think therefore I am. That is basically what you are saying (in the first bit of your post), you're not the first.

I think we can all safely agree that we cannot be objective because we interpret everything around us. What we are striving for then is intersubjectivity. This means that we know we are being subjective but we'll try to be subjective in the way way as eachother, interpreting things roughly the same way as others.

Having an open mind is a hard thing to do. First of all what ís an open mind?
It's obvious that it's a metaphor for something (cause the mind is not really 'open'). If we're really honest we'd have to admit that we don't even know what the mind is.
So how can we open something if we don't know what it is we have to open?

I think the first step to an open mind is to really think about this issue. The rest is just stating beliefs we'll never be able to prove nor truly understand.
 

spice

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
22 Déc 2006
Messages
3 774
The biggest enemy of an open mind is an open mouth.

I do not direct that at anyone here, because I would be more guilty of it than all of you combined were that to be taken literaly. :oops:

What I mean is that words interfere with perception.

Trying to explain reality verbally is like trying to carry water with a bucket full of holes, by the time you get where you are going, the bucket's empty.

Really I am just restating a zen idea, which is that classifying everything endlessly is a 'sickness of the mind' in the words of the masters, and that REAL perception only comes when the verbs are allowed to go away. The right hemisphere of the brain is where the secret to an open mind resides.

Carlos Castenada wrote in his book 'Don Juan; A Yaqui Way of Knowledge' that his mentor, the Master, Don Juan Matus, always stressed that the peyote and the mushrooms would not display their 'reality' to him if he could not stop his inner dialogue.

" You indulge too much" was his famous quote, saying that Castenada
always fell back on verbalization when confronted with concepts that he couldn't comprehend.
 

Dantediv86

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
18 Avr 2007
Messages
2 264
Faust a dit:
Having an open mind is a hard thing to do. First of all what ís an open mind?
It's obvious that it's a metaphor for something (cause the mind is not really 'open'). If we're really honest we'd have to admit that we don't even know what the mind is.
So how can we open something if we don't know what it is we have to open?

I think the first step to an open mind is to really think about this issue. The rest is just stating beliefs we'll never be able to prove nor truly understand.

open and close are just a metafore...it's our evolutionary "meter" to understand the extent to which a person is able to axcept knowledge in it's various forms.
then
if you don't know what the mind is
poor you
i just wish you good luck in finding the answer
however i agree, a bit, on the fact that we don't REALLY know what the mind is...we've got a pretty good idea
now
seriously
do you really think we don't know what the mind is? if we didn't we wouldn't know where it was, how to use it, and how to influence it
unfortunately we all know to a pretty good extent where is it, a bit how it works, and definetly how to influence it (see drugs, propaganda, advertisements, brainwashing, etc.)

EDIT late again i take too much time

again
i'm proven inferior by wiser people...(spice, GOD, etc.)
 

spice

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
22 Déc 2006
Messages
3 774
I wouldn't say that.....


Robert Anton Wilson asks this question in 'Prometheus Rising';

Where IS the 'mind'?

Is it in the brain?
Is it not in the brain?

Does it have a physical component?

Can it be measured?

Or opened?

Or closed?



Conditioning is what opens or closes a mind, as much as such a thing is possible.
 

Faust

Elfe Mécanique
Inscrit
11 Nov 2006
Messages
380
Dantediv86 a dit:
Faust a dit:
open and close are just a metafore...it's our evolutionary "meter" to understand the extent to which a person is able to axcept knowledge in it's various forms.
then
if you don't know what the mind is
poor you
i just wish you good luck in finding the answer
however i agree, a bit, on the fact that we don't REALLY know what the mind is...we've got a pretty good idea
now
seriously
do you really think we don't know what the mind is? if we didn't we wouldn't know where it was, how to use it, and how to influence it
unfortunately we all know to a pretty good extent where is it, a bit how it works, and definetly how to influence it (see drugs, propaganda, advertisements, brainwashing, etc.)

I study psychology. So I've read about most of the stuff we know about the mind. We've been able to measure certain effects of the mind and apply those. If you truly get down to the core though, you'll find out that we really don't know what the mind (or psyche) is or how it works.

I like spice's idea on open mindedness. There's lots of literature about silencing the inner dialogue. Carlos Castaneda put some of those idea's into his stories in a nice way (I think his books get less philosophical and more of a novell later on though). Krishnamurti has some interesting stuff about it aswell.

It's nice cause if you start thinking about 'what it all is' it'll just get more confusing and harder to understand. You'll always end up in somekind of paradox or dogma. It's almost as if truth is an asymptote for thinking. No matter how close you get, you'll never touch it.
So going in the opposite way and not conciously think about something but rather making the thoughts go away seems like a good idea. You also don't need to have arguments cause that would be thinking and thinking is going into the wrong direction ;).
 

Dantediv86

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
18 Avr 2007
Messages
2 264
again too many words that bring us nowhere.
however i studied psychology as well
of course we don't know where it is
of course we don't even know how to use it

it is so big that we cannot see it
is like the Universe

my god

you know what?

never MIND
:lol:
 

Faust

Elfe Mécanique
Inscrit
11 Nov 2006
Messages
380
Dantediv86 a dit:
again too many words that bring us nowhere.
however i studied psychology as well

:lol:

Really? Which direction did you get your masters in?
 

random

Sale drogué·e
Inscrit
14 Déc 2007
Messages
772
the mind is the product of our evolution
it is a tool for survival, in the first place (any being has a mind, the quickness of it then depends on the evolution of the species)
the mind stores experiences, decripts reality (stimuli experiences etc), creates communication codes, creates actions necessary for survival.
a narrow mind is essential to survival on the short term
the learning curve is slow and low (integralist people acquire technology that does not require a high level of knowlege, cars guns and handphones) and usually before using any new device they make sure it fits in the model of imposing their narrowmindedness.

lol, very nice written! :p

we barely accept eachothers ideas most times though we try
by using tools such as psychedelics or entheogens
surely they are a sign an indication, but they are not the way
a truly open mind is able to percieve over reality without the need of a "guide" thus is not open anymore but enlightened, it does not follow anymore it reaches out to the universe and learns without asking anyone's opinion because then it won't see, hear, smell, taste...it will just "be"

I can't agree on this. First because we don't know what we are, so we can't make such afirmation. That I think it's a reflex of your experiences. But, I can't say that I don't believe it. I feel your point, and it's.. well no interpertations at all! Can be named as "dream".
So my point is, you can't say that psychedelic drugs aren't The way. Or the only way. But I rather, be a follower of a believe and a experience that makes me feel more animal and more part of the One, of the God/Universe. That being a follower of a narrow-minded fundamentalist. Or better: A liar. You can feel that. But can you feel that these psychedelics lie to you? I don't think they lie to me. Sometimes my ego had lied to me. But that's because of the constant "Fight" between, what you think about life, and what could it be, or what will be, or what ever.., Culture, and the Real Experience that these Lifes ( Plants ) show you and make you feel.

But the try to explain your, point of view, not deep, just telling them that cannabis is a good thing and it's healing, to a fellow that raised on a deep fundamentalism enviornment. Or even the most (dont take me wrong, but this is a reflex of my experiences) people we see in the Streets, job, etc ? Well, or they think you are crazy and should be locked, or they ignore you, or think you're an addicted. The possibilities of him to understand what you are saying? Well make your interpertation.

If we're really honest we'd have to admit that we don't even know what the mind is.
So how can we open something if we don't know what it is we have to open?

And that's the biggest problem of all people. The lack of questions they make about life itself. They mostly, just "Be" ( just accept what they are told, without even worrying to try seeing above the the walls.) But in the wrong way, in my interpertation.

I think the first step to an open mind is to really think about this issue. The rest is just stating beliefs we'll never be able to prove nor truly understand.

No. The first step it's to make them understand the two sides of the "Thing" or the "War on Drugs" ( War on Freedom as Bill Hicks Says! :D ). Make them just smoke One joint. I'm asking only one day. Every people on this fucking world would smoke One pure joint! And if there were no deaths, and instead more healing people, more alive, more true with themselfs and just see that we are One! Well, politicians could start flying to the moon with their firecrackers! :p (well they are already selling "ground" on it!)

The biggest enemy of an open mind is an open mouth.

So true! But we have to "play the same game" to make our point understandable!

always stressed that the peyote and the mushrooms would not display their 'reality' to him if he could not stop his inner dialogue.

That's a huge problem. And that's the major, and harder to let go.
That's why they send "esquizofrenic" ( witch I think it means double personality ( The main idea that people got of it )) , but in my interpertation, that's what most people have. Everybody it's esquizofrenic, because they use the "tool" of talking to the other "Me" ( what I like to call Ego ), and are always being open-minded to their "Me". People tend to Agree with themselfs.

Well a Excelent read, that could improve peoples interpertation of a "open-minded" perspective of reality and how things could , Be! It's "Island" by Aldous Huxley. For who already read that, I think Western Values (after all, we are the only ones that are fucking everything! Millions and Millions suffered so we can "be" where we are, what ever this is) are like the Birds in Pala always screaming "Attention". But there they are used in the right way, and with only One word. Not "propaganda" and shit brain investiments of energy and intelligence on things like Marketing, Politics, etc etc... Like terence mckenan says: "Buisness are off the menu".

(Oh, after the "Worlds Pot Break" :lol: , give them this book to read in short term, and after that "The Emperors Wears no Clothes" For a more long term reading. It's just one day, I think there will be enough people that understand it, and start questionning many things! Discussing with Each Other As One , Communicating About The One. And then for the hard-heads that think that was a shit thing to Test their Faith, Well for them I have to say: It's hard to Fight a Big Stupid Crowd when, we are lesser, and we feel we have "truth" in our minds to share, but It's easy for a Big Sane Crowd to kick ass of an stupid insignificant Hard-Stupid-Egocentric-Ignorant-Problematic-Dogmatic-Weak-...-Heads. ( does that make me out of the Open-minded club? :p)

As I read somewhere here.

Revolution!

sorry for the english :p
 

GOD

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
14 Jan 2006
Messages
14 944
I am proud to be part of this discussion . We are learning to be adults and moving to a point where we see what our responsibilitys are and to reach the point where we take them in our own hands . First define the problem and then take it , the bull by the horns .

"The biggest enemy of an open mind is an open mouth."

Lao tse said "The more thinking and talking , the further from the truth" . Sometime we must stop talking , defining and DO IT .


" (I think his books get less philosophical and more of a novell later on though)"

WOW !!! finaly someone who agrees with me about Castaneda , after two years of being slaged off here for sackrelige and blasphemy by the C.C fan club !!!!! Hopefully the uncle Terence fan club will also realise that the man was a genius but that the sun didnt shine out of his arse , that later in his life he went of the rails with his machine elves , timewank zero . morphogenic fields and 2012 . Genius is close to madness .


"making the thoughts go away seems like a good idea."

Making the thoughts go away doesnt make the problem go away . Its called wearing rose coloured glasses = ignorance is bliss . It can lead to "I`m allright jack , fuck the rest" .......... like budism . Like a child closing his eyes and thinking that he or everything else has disapeared .

"Really? Which direction did you get your masters in?"

Na , na.....everyone who lives with his eyes open studys psychology . And some of the people i have met who have a masters degree in psychology were some of the most psychelogicaly ignorant scum that i have ever met . Projecting their own psychology onto others and not realising it .

"part of the One, of the God/Universe"

Ok so we are getting to the truth . When are we going to do something about it ? I am you as you are me as we are alltogether .

I used to live in a room full of mirrors and all i could see was me .
 

Faust

Elfe Mécanique
Inscrit
11 Nov 2006
Messages
380
GOD a dit:
I am proud to be part of this discussion . We are learning to be adults and moving to a point where we see what our responsibilitys are and to reach the point where we take them in our own hands . First define the problem and then take it , the bull by the horns .




"making the thoughts go away seems like a good idea."

Making the thoughts go away doesnt make the problem go away . Its called wearing rose coloured glasses = ignorance is bliss . It can lead to "I`m allright jack , fuck the rest" .......... like budism . Like a child closing his eyes and thinking that he or everything else has disapeared .

"Really? Which direction did you get your masters in?"

Na , na.....everyone who lives with his eyes open studys psychology . And some of the people i have met who have a masters degree in psychology were some of the most psychelogicaly ignorant scum that i have ever met . Projecting their own psychology onto others and not realising it .
.

Shutting off the internal dialogue is different from ignoring a problem. It's wáy different. Get that right.

You'll find 'scum' in every sector, even in psychology. You'll also find very inspiring people there. Use the good stuff, ignore the rest.
 

Meduzz

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
12 Avr 2006
Messages
4 228
GOD a dit:
WOW !!! finaly someone who agrees with me about Castaneda , after two years of being slaged off here for sackrelige and blasphemy by the C.C fan club !!!!! Hopefully the uncle Terence fan club will also realise that the man was a genius but that the sun didnt shine out of his arse.

Agree, i tend more to have this opinion about Leary.
A great figure, but too reckless.
Hoffman didn't like him, he explains it in his book. And i agree.

GOD a dit:
Na , na.....everyone who lives with his eyes open studys psychology . And some of the people i have met who have a masters degree in psychology were some of the most psychelogicaly ignorant scum that i have ever met . Projecting their own psychology onto others and not realising it .

YES! I also heard that at the university i'm at, they don't allow initiation rituals for psychology students, because tests have shown a higher concentration of mental lability among psychology students...

Also, i think it isn't healthy for your mind to constantly see the human mind as something that is influenced in such a COLD way.
I don't like Freud :evil:
He has good theories, but i feel the mystic properties of the mind are denied...
 

random

Sale drogué·e
Inscrit
14 Déc 2007
Messages
772
Shutting off the internal dialogue is different from ignoring a problem. It's wáy different. Get that right.

As well as making the thoughts go away is different from shutting off internal dialogue. And I agree that people should stop talking to their ego. And start Thinking above, in first place, their selfs. And then I think we will be able to "start" walking the path of seeing everything as the same. As part of the Unknown.

I am you as you are me as we are alltogether .

Exactly! Nice to read the echo of words I already thought and spoke about! :)

Ok so we are getting to the truth . When are we going to do something about it ?

And we return to the same thing. But my honest opinion is that, and already wrote it somewhere: We have to use the power of language and comunication. Spread your Information. Spread your experiences. People tend to believe in what they see "mostly" aroud them. So let's start spreading real experiences! Spreading hope through out western society! And not hope for them! Hope for the next generations, hope for the poor, the hunger, hope for the familys that are dying in conditions we can't even Imagine what would feel like...
What makes your or my or whoever "soul" more precious or more valuable as the little brown kid that is dying of hungry , desease and thirst ?

Spread the word. Don't be afraid of what people could think about you. Because that doesn't really matter! Spread your ideas! If we ALL do this, some time in the future people will start realizing that maybe this or that is true. And start questionning themselfs about things.

And maybe this is the easy way. But don't we all feel powerless on doing other kind of action attempt? So just use language. You won't get hurted. And you will feel more part of the One and, the most important, your helping The One to heal itself. And No you/me can't do a miraculous action that will change the world! So lets heal the

We have to face this as a Big Desease. And start healing it slowly. Well, not so slowly because resources and the earth health is really comming to a stage where it can be hard to turn the boat. But DO it! Instead of earing people in the job, in school, in whatever enviornment you'r in.. instead of bullshit talking and subjects that are only a reflex of culture values. Bring those people to reason. And say to them that cannabis is a great Plant, and it's healing, and can replace many other rescources that are getting deepleted!
And if you aren't a lasy ass , print some paper explainning (Simple language, Objective information) the use cannabis can have. And be sure you touch that persons "hearth" when you talk to them, or when they read what you wrote on those papers. This was an example of a method that we CAN do!
And no one unknown has ever faced me asking me about subjects like these and giving me papers of Usefull information!

And No you/me can't do a miraculous action that will change the world!
So lets heal the planet, and life itself ( for what we know about it ) as ONE. If we're One let's heal it together! And not just sit down, being occupied with the Holy Experiences we have, and wait that some miracle happen. If you think like that you are as hard-head as a fundamentalist waiting for Jesus to come back to the earth and heal everything.

We're One! Let's cure Ourselfs! And don't forget to feel it! Love is very important! Love for the One!

Revolution!
 

buffachino

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
7 Juin 2007
Messages
1 452
Being open-minded or narrow-minded is simply the focus on coalescence or differentials.
How things relate together as one or how things are set apart.
One is expansion and one is contraction, and both are needed.
One a reflection and one a shadow that both point reference to the real you.

We walk forever in a house of mirrors, where the only thing one can see is themselves.

Peace.
 
G

Guest

Invité
I am you as you are me as we are alltogether .

never thought to meet the eggman and walrus here.


I used to live in a room full of mirrors and all i could see was me .


Well, i take my spirit and I crash my mirrors. now the whole world is here for me to see.
 

random

Sale drogué·e
Inscrit
14 Déc 2007
Messages
772
We walk forever in a house of mirrors, where the only thing one can see is themselves.


And that's what we don't want right?
 

Forkbender

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
23 Nov 2005
Messages
11 366
Well, I think it's pretty cool. There is only one self.
 

random

Sale drogué·e
Inscrit
14 Déc 2007
Messages
772
You mean oneself how? You with your experiences and senses or we, as one, where all that experiences and senses are compressed?

I agree, that in one way we see only ourselves as it is the only, for sure, real thing. But I call that survival instinct. And what I mean is, whatever we do ( unless we have no self esteem or "One-esteem" ) is basically for survival.
But we can look beyond that. And that's what makes us different from other animals. We have a big tool that we call Mind. A Big tool that it's called Nature. A Big tool that is called Love.
We have to learn and try to inform people to combine this things! And not just, let that other part of You, follow other peoples ass's! Only because they don't know what This is but also to feel safer in the ents nest!

And You (Me/Them/We) can feel this.. can feel this disease that is with us a loooong time now...

But my point is... it's not with the this spirit, "We walk forever in a house of mirrors, where the only thing one can see is themselves." "Well, I think it's pretty cool. There is only one self.", that we will be able to call peoples awareness, and love for the Universe and the One!
If you tell this to a, let's say... a big ego ( whoever it is ) , he will agree with you and just be even more hard-head.

So we got so start from the bottom. And as we see information spreading ( witch it already is... that's why all the governments are starting to see the situation "out of control". It's under-control, but not so much as the last century. maybe less) we will go deeper and deeper with our information... and then ( don't put this in short terms please! ), I hope, we/one would all share the same Light...
 

Forkbender

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
23 Nov 2005
Messages
11 366
I was once in a mosque, somewhere in Iran. From the inside it was made entirely of mirrors, except for the floor. I sat there for 15 minutes, feeling the energy collecting, everything buzzing & blurring. I noticed my self. Not my ego, my self. I noticed how it was always there, even when one locks himself up inside some ridiculous ego, which is basically a room with just mirrors, like the mosque. Projection/reflection/awareness/projection/reflection/awareness. Even when you are not willing to look beyond the ego, it forces itself (your 'self') upon you.

What if we all unite and realise we are all one. Isn't that just another form of egoism? Just one of those big ego's.
 

random

Sale drogué·e
Inscrit
14 Déc 2007
Messages
772
What if we all unite and realise we are all one. Isn't that just another form of egoism? Just one of those big ego's.

I don't think so. I think it's only Loving each and everything. How can one be egoist knowing that doing this or that will hurt himself. Even if it's not his direct form of existance?

If you see some one being killed by cutting their neck, I can make you sure that you Will suffer seing that. You will feel it! So, the "rule" is the same for Loving and Caring.

And if that it's an ego reflection, to us, maybe ego finally has some purpose! We must understand the ego to use it the right way. Like everything.
 

Dantediv86

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
Inscrit
18 Avr 2007
Messages
2 264
too bad that muslims often don't feel as you do...they enter a mosque, like christians and buddists and jews to their own places of cult and pray. and follow a dogma and don't understand that what they should follow is their curiosity and satisfy it to the core.
if they ever feel like you they would take a leap to the unknown and reach out to enlightenment.
peace.
 
Haut