On killing the ego

[EndlessEntity]

uh.... sure i'll try harder for you. im sorry my unkempt manner makes my posts less legible.
im a weird crazy guy

 

[maxfreakout]

Where do car acidents fit into that?

i used the example of car crashes as a paradigm case of a near death experience, of course there are many others, parachutes not opening, acute allergic reactions, cocaine overdoses, skiing accidents etc etc etc

What about near death experiences?

I have never had a near death experience (in the sense of physical death), I was seriously ill as a young child but i dont think i ever approached death

What were you loke before yout ego death experiences?

i was pretty much the same as i am now, an ordinary average guy, except that before i got involved with psychedelic drugs i completely lacked the mystical/religious dimension of understanding which i now have

What are you like after those experiences and what changes did they make in you?

the basic, essential change is the one that i already described, which is that i no longer literally believe in my own existence (and the existence of the physical world)

The crucial concept that is involved here is the distinction between appearance and reality (most of Plato's philosophy revolved around this distinction). Before ego death, i thought that the world, time and my self were real, ego death showed me that the world, time and myself appear to be real (ie they are real only insofar as they appear to be real) but that ultimate reality (ie what is truly, ultimately real) lies beyond appearances. So ego death relegates the status of empirical phenomena from literal reality, to mere appearance

The metaphysical picture that emerges after ego death is a hierarchy of reality, some things are 'more real' than others, ultimate reality is more real than what appears to us during the ordinary state of consciousness

 

[Lazarus]

"uh.... sure i'll try harder for you."

Thank you.

"im sorry my unkempt manner makes my posts less legible.im a weird crazy guy"

We all are.

 

[maxfreakout]

There is only ONE EGO

it is NOT YOU

It IS a part of you

i disagree with you on this point, i think it is incoherent to divide the 'self' into parts as you are suggesting. the self in one single indivisible thing (specifically, it is the agent who controls the thoughts and actions)

put it this way, you are only one person, the name 'endlessentity' refers to one single person. So there are 3 words, 'self', 'ego' and 'person' which all equivalently refer to the same thing, ie YOU. What you are, is the single self/ego/person who is choosing to take part in this discussion

EGO does NOT mean arrogance
this is the mistake Ayn Rand Writes for
Selfishness is normally considered "bad" but no ones gunna breathe air into your lungs for you
might as well be selfish enough or arrogant enough to breathe wouldnt you think?

yes society has givin Ego the same negative connotation thats been givin to "selfishness"
Egotism and Selfishness are NOT bad things. try living without them. who would you be living for?

Terence Mckenna made an interesting point which usefully clarifies what 'ego' is, he said that without an ego, sitting in a group at a meal you would be completely unable to know where to put the food (ie in whose mouth to put the fork), so you can see from this that ego is a practical necessity, without ego you would perish

EDIT* Also Itsscience some people on here are 'trolls' but looking down our noses at them only acknowledges that our heads are high. This website and its people have its flaws
BUT!!!! I love all you guys. i sleep easy knowing theres a community of like-minded people arguing the semantics of ego death. living in a city of thugs where reading is looked down upon and life is about money and bitches, a website where alike intellects can congregate is a breath of fresh air

i very much share your sentiment here, on a specialist forum like this, trolls stand out a million miles, and as such they arent worth responding to, whereas the core community of psychonauts, even though we dont always agree with each other about these kinds of semantic issues, are all essentially motivated by the same thing, ie a fascination with these profound altered states of consciousness which allow access to the deeper levels of the human mind. We are only a tiny proportion of the overall population, and we are criminalised, demonised and deeply patronised by the society, so it is an incredibly valuable opportunity that we have to come on a forum like this and discuss these deep issues with each other

 

[EndlessEntity]

Max said: "The crucial concept that is involved here is the distinction between appearance and reality (most of Plato's philosophy revolved around this distinction). Before ego death, i thought that the world, time and my self were real, ego death showed me that the world, time and myself appear to be real (ie they are real only insofar as they appear to be real) but that ultimate reality (ie what is truly, ultimately real) lies beyond appearances. So ego death relegates the status of empirical phenomena from literal reality, to mere appearance"

sounds like Gnosticism to me - i tried bringing up plato's cave allegory in another thread - didnt go over well lol.

Max also said: "i disagree with you on this point, i think it is incoherent to divide the 'self' into parts as you are suggesting. the self in one single indivisible thing (specifically, it is the agent who controls the thoughts and actions)

put it this way, you are only one person, the name 'endlessentity' refers to one single person. So there are 3 words, 'self', 'ego' and 'person' which all equivalently refer to the same thing, ie YOU. What you are, is the single self/ego/person who is choosing to take part in this discussion"

whether you think it incoherent or not the Ego is not the SELF
the EGO is what you APPEAR to be to yourself and others
you are awareness that is all you are. an experiencer of experiences.

look what you said about appearances
your ego is one of these "appearances"
you appear to be Max on psychonaut but your really awareness in a body, breathing air on a wire that appears to be on the internet
your thoughts appear to be yours
in batman his ALTER EGO is bruce wayne not because hes 2 people but because he has 2 ego's to identities he is known by from society and himself.

Mr. Mckenna's statement is very true and wonderful. your ego identifies which hand feeds which mouth
but its still not YOU
think
Am i max? or is Max my name?. it might not seem to make sense right now.
yes i am only one person
but i am a part of a giant community and my ego is a part of me like my foot is a part of my leg but isnt my leg

 

[EndlessEntity]

and im glad we can all disagree more or less peacefully. lol
some are just out of tune
perhaps some Divine Molecular Tuning will set us str8

 

[Lazarus]

My experience with ego death and near death experiences.

30 motorcycle accidents,
1 car accident while triping on mushrooms where a small child was hit and knocked unconscious,
1 car accident while very high on cannabis,
1 car accident where the car i was driving hit a rock face at about 60 MPH. All the 5 people in the car landed on the front seat,the front window smashed, the car was shortened by about 1 foot,
1 time dying on a 5 meo-DMT trip,
Several bad drug overdoses where i thought that i was about to die and made a will and wrote goodbye notes,
2 times being with people who had overdoses and died,
I have had many experiences of ego death on drugs,
I have experienced ego death by meditation,
6 times knocked off my bicycle by cars,
6 times beaten up by 6 or 7 people,
1 time beaten up by about 50 people,
1 time a loaded cocked pistol pointed in my face,
1 time a loaded cocked machine gun pointed at my face and being threatened with being shot,
1 time having a loaded cocked shotgun pointed at me from a few feet away and being threatened with being shot
1 time a loaded cocked rifle pointed in my face and threatened,
1 time being shot at with a shotgun,
1 time being stabbed once,
1 time being attacked by two men and stabbed 3 times and also being slashed over the whole of my upper body many times,
1 LSD trip where i saw myself and very many other people burning . Then watching their flesh dropping off their bodys and then seeing us all as skeletons,
1 mushroom trip while lying on top of a leaking petrol tank.I spent a large part of the trip seeing me burning.
3 classic near death experiences.
2 situations where a doctor told me i was going to die.

In not one of those experiences did i experience fear or have a bad trip.

T.Leary would turn over in his grave at you using his name to say that ego death is a bad trip.

The word psychomimetic is used by people who are against psychoactive drug use.

The word psychedelic was chosen by a group of people that rejected the word psychomimetic and T.Leary was one of those people.

psy·cho·mi·met·ic definition: producing effects (as hallucinations or paranoid delusions) that resemble or are identical with psychotic symptoms.

The T.Leary version of the tibetan book of the dead does not say that a drug induced ego death is a bad trip.You have interpreted it falsely.

Ego death on drugs and in near death experiences can be very very frightening and with drugs can cause a bad trip.It depends on how big/swollen a persons ego is and their personality/character.

Your version of near death experience and ego death are minority opinions.See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience

You have a very swollen ego and have never had a real ego death or experienced transcendence.That is proved by - What you say. How you say it.How many times you post.The way in which you reply often twisting things and often not answering questions.The way you think that you know better than the other people in this topic and others.

You have had a bad trip/s not ego death.

In this topic you have contradicted yourself several times.You have criticised how people have used words and used those words in the same way.You have admitted to having mental problems in association with drug use.In another thread you admitted having bad drug experiences and because of that having psychiatric problems.You admitted that because of that you had to have psychiatric treatment.

You are in denial.You can`t admit that you had bad experiences and are trying to blame those experiences on drugs.You are trying to deny that you have latent psychiatric problems.You are trying to prove to people / convince people that ego death means a bad trip and that drug effects are the same as mental illness.

You are in my opinion a troll,mentally confused and on the same level as an enemy agent with a lot of what you say.

Ego death makes people empathic,humble,honest.helpfull, sincere,responsible,consequent and loving

I see no point whatsoever in replying to you as you are not prepared to listen to anyone else.You deny other peoples experiences and the beliefs of many scientists,drug users and mystics.

I wont post in this topic again unless someone/something needs an answer.

I am also seriously thinking of leaving this board.I don`t want to be a part of a board where people like you can get away with writing such utter anti mystic,anti drug and anti psychonaut rubbish.

 

[EndlessEntity]

i'd hate to see you go theres good people on this board.

i think max is just confused.
and he thinks we're just confused.

dont let his self contradicting opinion bring you down.

Don't think max meant to hurt anybody

 

[maxfreakout]

30 motorcycle accidents,
1 car accident while triping on mushrooms where a small child was hit and knocked unconscious,
1 car accident while very high on cannabis,
1 car accident where the car i was driving hit a rock face at about 60 MPH. All the 5 people in the car landed on the front seat,the front window smashed, the car was shortened by about 1 foot,
1 time dying on a 5 meo-DMT trip,
Several bad drug overdoses where i thought that i was about to die and made a will and wrote goodbye notes,
2 times being with people who had overdoses and died,
I have had many experiences of ego death on drugs,
I have experienced ego death by meditation,
6 times knocked off my bicycle by cars,
6 times beaten up by 6 or 7 people,
1 time beaten up by about 50 people,
1 time a loaded cocked pistol pointed in my face,
1 time a loaded cocked machine gun pointed at my face and being threatened with being shot,
1 time having a loaded cocked shotgun pointed at me from a few feet away and being threatened with being shot
1 time a loaded cocked rifle pointed in my face and threatened,
1 time being shot at with a shotgun,
1 time being stabbed once,
1 time being attacked by two men and stabbed 3 times and also being slashed over the whole of my upper body many times,
1 LSD trip where i saw myself and very many other people burning . Then watching their flesh dropping off their bodys and then seeing us all as skeletons,
1 mushroom trip while lying on top of a leaking petrol tank.I spent a large part of the trip seeing me burning.
3 classic near death experiences.
2 situations where a doctor told me i was going to die.

blimey you ought to be more careful! Especially on the road :wink:

In not one of those experiences did i experience fear or have a bad trip.

Altered state fear (fear of control-loss, the classic 'bad trip' experience) is the most profound and psychologically transfomative mental dynamic that psychedelic drugs open up. It is also the core referent of all religion and mythology, - Jesus' agonising death on the crucifix is an allegorical reference to the bad-trip control struggle

The word psychomimetic is used by people who are against psychoactive drug use

That is false, 'psychotomimetic' was the name originally given to these drugs by the psychiatrists who were using them for psychiatric purposes (both on themselves and on their patients) so clearly they were not 'against' their use

The word psychedelic was chosen by a group of people that rejected the word psychomimetic and T.Leary was one of those people.

this is also false, it was Humphrey Osmond who coined the word 'psychedelic', in correspondence with Aldous Huxley. This was not so much a 'rejection' of the word 'psychotomimetic but rather an 'upgrade', it was just felt that 'psychedelic' gave a more comprehensive account of the drugs' effects than psychotomimetic. While the drugs do undoubtedly cause temporary psychosis (hallucinations and delusions), it is a very specific kind of psychosis, namely the mind-manifesting kind

The T.Leary version of the tibetan book of the dead does not say that a drug induced ego death is a bad trip.You have interpreted it falsely.

i didnt interpret it at all, i didnt even mention it

Ego death on drugs and in near death experiences can be very very frightening and with drugs can cause a bad trip.It depends on how big/swollen a persons ego is and their personality/character.

it has nothing to do with 'swollen egos', that is a false conflation of the 2 different senses of 'ego' that i mentioned earlier. Ego death arises because a sufficiently strong trip can overwhelm the ordinary sense of possessing a capacity to effectively steer the course of mental contents, ie the sense of being a mental controller is overwhelmed

Your version of near death experience and ego death are minority opinions.See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_death and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_death_experience

a much better wiki page describing these kinds of mental dynamics is this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bad_trip

You have had a bad trip/s not ego death.

this ^ is a false distinction, altered-state fear and panic (ie 'bad' experiences) arise because of the mind's hardwired tendency to try to cling on and preserve the sense of self-identity in the face of the overwhelming altered state, it is exactly the same principle that comes into play when (for example) a hungry lion enters the room, it is not a cheerful/blissful experience

You admitted that because of that you had to have psychiatric treatment

I have never had psychiatric treatment, and i have never claimed to have had psychiatric treatment. Steer WELL clear of psychiatrists if you are having drug-induced mental problems, unless it becomes absolutely critically necessary to get psychiatric attention. Psychiatrists operate from within the materialist paradigm, and as such they do not have any understanding of psychedelic phenomenology, all they do is prescribe harmful drugs to suppress the symptoms of psychosis, instead of attempting to deal with the underlying issues

ego death means a bad trip and drug effects are the same as mental illness.

this ^ is highly oversimplified, there is a big overlap between mental illness and intense psychedelic tripping, but they are certainly not 'the same'

Ego death makes people empathic,humble,honest.helpfull, sincere,responsible,consequent and loving

there is a zen saying: "before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water". If you were a jackass before ego death, in all likelihood you will be a jackass after ego death. Psychedelic mental transformation (ie zen enlightenment) has little if anything to do with mundane ethics and daily life conduct.

The fact that psychedelics dont make people any more 'responsible' is clearly evidenced by your reckless driving

 

[EndlessEntity]

to be fair

max

you are both kinda twisting what the other is saying. your just two subjective bubbles clashing
one will have to back down or both compromise to form an objective world in between


btw max he never said he was driving plus someone could have gotten hurt no need to prod his wound. thats pretty fucked up so just shut up

 

[maxfreakout]

max he never said he was driving

yes he did, several times, read it carefully

plus someone could have gotten hurt

exactly, which is why i said he should be more careful (the person who said ego death makes you "more responsible")

 

[EndlessEntity]

max he never said he was driving

yes he did, several times, read it carefully

plus someone could have gotten hurt

exactly, which is why i said he should be more careful (the person who said ego death makes you "more responsible")

ok max if it makes you feel better
he did say he drove Once 4th line down

other than that i've seen your varying definitions of the "ego" and now it seems as though its just seeking satisfaction.

 

[IJesusChrist]

"I'm more right than you are"

On a very subjective manner. You cannot homogenize ego death just like you cannot homogenize any other emotion or experience. Seriously...

nobody knows anyone elses experiences more than the experiencer.

 

[Jeniger]

You are in my opinion a troll,mentally confused and on the same level as an enemy agent with a lot of what you say.

Ego death makes people empathic,humble,honest.helpfull, sincere,responsible,consequent and loving

I am also seriously thinking of leaving this board.I don`t want to be a part of a board where people like you can get away with writing such utter anti mystic,anti drug and anti psychonaut rubbish.

Yes... feeling this completely

I see no point whatsoever in replying to you as you are not prepared to listen to anyone else.You deny other peoples experiences and the beliefs of many scientists,drug users and mystics.

This is why someone gets away with it,till the point no ego's are involved anymore... it could be realised when he's the only one left talking in this thread

 

[EndlessEntity]

"I'm more right than you are"

On a very subjective manner. You cannot homogenize ego death just like you cannot homogenize any other emotion or experience. Seriously...

nobody knows anyone elses experiences more than the experiencer.

very true

***MAN IS THE MEASURE OF ALL THINGS***

 

[Lazarus]

I was driving the one car.It was on private land and we were testing a rally car.Rally car driving and testing often ends in crashes.

The motorbikes were all driven by me on private land.Testing scrambling bikes and very tuned up bikes.Each accident happened the first time i rode each of those bikes.The only person who got hurt was me.Motorbike testing often ends in crashes.

I have never driven a car or a motorbike under the influence of drugs.

Non of those incidents happened after i had experienced ego death.One of them,a motorbike accident,was the first time i experienced a classical near death experience.Since then i have never driven a motorbike.Since then i have only driven a car two times.Once on private land and another time on the road when the driver had a diabetic shock and lost consciousness at the wheel on a busy main road.The van was full of people and i had to drive the van to a halt from the passenger seat.

The bicycle accidents were all the fault of the car drivers.I care enough about safety that i took part in several courses for bicycle riders offered by the police.very similar to car driving lessons. I passed all those courses.

The child that was involved in the accident ran into the road.Into the side of the van i was a passenger in.The car didn't hit him he hit the car.The child was knocked unconscious but within a few seconds was conscious again.

In all the incidents with guns i had no control over the situation and they all happened suddenly with no warning.

They were all examples of a person being in a situation where according to max a person should have experienced fear.I experienced no fear.That at least proves that not all people experience fear in such situations just as not all people fear death.

I have had very bad trips and most of them ended up being very nice.I never experienced an ego death in connection with a bad trip.I have never had mental problems or mental treatment after or in connection with a bad trip.

max told us some of the people who decided to use the word psychedelic and not the word psychomimetic and why.He uses the word psychomimetic in spite of that.I have already explained why i think that that is.



EE i don`t want to argue with you but as a person who has experienced ego death i care about your opinions and if i make mistakes want to know about them so that i don`t do it again.Can you please tell me where i have twisted max words?

Jesus.Sometimes i have difficulty in understanding your comments.Can you please make it clear at who they are directed.For example at me or at max or at both of us.

 

[IJesusChrist]

My comment was mostly to max, but indeed to the entire thread since most are argueing with max.

Your ego death is not my ego death.
My ego is not your ego.
My death is not your death.
My fear is not your fear.
Your pain is not my pain.

How can any one explain their ego death absolutely to another person? How can one even say "I've experienced ego death" since ego death's definition only originates from the self. By some people's definition I've experienced it, by others I have not. I personally don't think there is such a thing as ego death. The ego is how you function, how you draw conclusions - so in that way, the fact that one can say "i've experienced ego death" shows one is drawing a conclusion on an event, which means the ego was there to facilitate it.

Ego death is loss of consciousness in my eyes. The 'ego death' you're all talking about is personal and not really debatable... It is a subjective experience, unwilling and unable to objectified, as is plainly seen in this thread that is increasingly getting more ridiculous. It should be talked about in the same way a trip itself is. No one's trip is wrong or right, and classifications of trips are possible, but the spectrum of experiences is infinite in content and complexity and background. Ego death is as arbitrary as some of the content of high-dosage trips. Out there, objectivity is destined to be wrong down here.

 

[EndlessEntity]

[quote="Lazarus"

EE i don`t want to argue with you but as a person who has experienced ego death i care about your opinions and if i make mistakes want to know about them so that i don`t do it again.Can you please tell me where i have twisted max words?

idk i guess you didnt twist his words like he twisted yours but you were both targeting each other.



one time...... i underwent a large dose of Divine Moments of Truth and immediately i saw myself being wheeled through a hospital with people all around me looking at me in a concerned manner. I became aware of my lack of control and freaked out. After having a (yes max a tiny bit a fear) i could no longer differentiate myself from the vast cosmos i was being introduced to inside my head. it was all going fine until i saw a NAVY STAMP on the side of my brain and thought that the military was controlling me... yea fuckin crazy i know... so i ran outside and on my way between my apartment and my moms house (their right next to eachother) i saw McKenna's Machine Elves at least i think.. i was staring at a bush because it looked like it and everything else around me was made up of these tiny little green robots with little pointy elf ears. they were twisting and crawling all over eachother, there were billions of them. they made everything.
then i went inside, grabbed my brother by the collar and whispered into his ear "Whats going on?????" he could tell i was frightened. But i was already coming down so no sooner did the question come out that i had the answer. i was crazy
it was like "LIMBO" in inception Lol.. i accepted being crazy and went back in my room and rode out the rest (about 10 minutes) i saw medusa and buddha and chinese soldiers battling it out in shadows. it was beautiful...

a crazy ego death but an ego death no less..

 

[IJesusChrist]

see to me that doesn't sound like ego death, that just sounds like an intense trip... but that's my subjective stance on something unobjectifiable.

 

[tryptonaut]

Something just crossed my mind: there's a lot of alive ego in this thread!