On killing the ego

[maxfreakout]

so your saying that "drugs" ARE an ERGONIMIC tool?

yes exactly, with drugs it is very easy and convenient to trigger altered states

wouldnt that specifically include synthetics? and rule out naturals?

the natural/synthetic distinction isnt relevant, drugs are drugs, LSD (synthetic) and mushrooms (natural) both equivalently trigger altered states

 

[trick]

lol i hate the saying "drugs are drugs".

theres drugs... and theres psychedelics
-Trick

 

[ophiuchus]

ijc: "This thread is trying to give very subjective ideas objective meaning... I mean the whole thread..."

good observation. is not that the entire "purpose" of life? by that i mean, everything seems to be engineered to do this, no? what's wrong with that? is their anything wrong with that? do YOU see anything wrong with that? if so, (or if not) why don't you give some examples? i don't want to "disprove" you or anything, i'd just like (a more specific version of)your angle on it if you will

it's when you think that things CAN be stated objectively that you have a problem, and so in that regard, i agree with you ijc. but i dont believe that things can be stated objectively, and i don't think that life is so serious, like all the rest of you would imply(and imply that OTHERS may think)...

poetry is the art of conveying something that simply cannot be conveyed in any conventional* manner, yet, you DO understand what it's referencing, what it's pointing at, right?

so you have no comment on what i said then max?

 

[IJesusChrist]

good observation. is not that the entire "purpose" of life? by that i mean, everything seems to be engineered to do this, no? what's wrong with that? is their anything wrong with that? do YOU see anything wrong with that? if so, (or if not) why don't you give some examples? i don't want to "disprove" you or anything, i'd just like (a more specific version of)your angle on it if you will

Ego death pertains to the individual, it holds meaning to the self, and only the self.

My ego death has no reality or meaning in your life or anyone elses. It may effect your life, in that I change, and somehow affect you, but that is completely indirect.

You cannot convey to anyone else what ego-death means, as it is death. You lose the self, the only entity which is conscious, and thus the only reality. To lose the ego, again, holds only a meaning to the self.

In that way, ego death is as pure a subjective idea as anything can be. It is as abstract as the perception of art, the feeling of love, or the thought of good. One can never say that "I had ego death, and I can prove it." - so, in my definition and opinion of what objectivity is - ego death is not, and can never be.

I would say ego death is even more abstract than "love"...

 

[EndlessEntity]

max ergonomic meaning human engineered by definition could only be used to describe synthetic drugs, which is all depending on your perspective on the definition of synthetic and "natural" but drugs like shrooms or dmt would surely not be considered to be engineered by humans.

 

[maxfreakout]

max ergonomic meaning human engineered by definition could only be used to describe synthetic drugs, which is all depending on your perspective on the definition of synthetic and "natural" but drugs like shrooms or dmt would surely not be considered to be engineered by humans.

by 'ergonomic' i just mean 'safe and effective', they are used by humans, but designed by evolution or God

psychedelic drugs are the safest and most effective means to trigger the mystical altered state

 

[maxfreakout]

Ego death pertains to the individual, it holds meaning to the self, and only the self.

My ego death has no reality or meaning in your life or anyone elses. It may effect your life, in that I change, and somehow affect you, but that is completely indirect.

You cannot convey to anyone else what ego-death means, as it is death. You lose the self, the only entity which is conscious, and thus the only reality. To lose the ego, again, holds only a meaning to the self.

In that way, ego death is as pure a subjective idea as anything can be. It is as abstract as the perception of art, the feeling of love, or the thought of good. One can never say that "I had ego death, and I can prove it." - so, in my definition and opinion of what objectivity is - ego death is not, and can never be.

I would say ego death is even more abstract than "love"...

but you can talk about what happened in your ego death experience to other people, and agree with other people who have had the same experience that you have experienced the same thing. So in that sense, ego death is intersubjective, as opposed to being purely subjective, ie it is something that every person can potentially experience, and which other people besides yourself have experienced

 

[maxfreakout]

so you have no comment on what i said then max?

i said the same thing to another poster earlier in this thread, you are misusing the term 'ego death' to refer to something completely different from what i am using it to refer to

when i talk about 'ego death' i am using this term to mean the same thing that the psychedelic theorists such as Grof and Leary meant by it, this is clearly not what you mean by 'ego death', and therefore it is impossible to have a meaningful conversation about it unless we first get it absolutely clear what we both mean by it

ego death happens when you trip too hard, freak out and think you are dying/being ripped apart/going insane etc, this is not some trivial experience that you can have 'every day', an encounter with ego death leaves the mind permanently transformed, and in that sense it can only happen once in a person's life

 

[EndlessEntity]

max ergonomic meaning human engineered by definition could only be used to describe synthetic drugs, which is all depending on your perspective on the definition of synthetic and "natural" but drugs like shrooms or dmt would surely not be considered to be engineered by humans.

by 'ergonomic' i just mean 'safe and effective', they are used by humans, but designed by evolution or God

psychedelic drugs are the safest and most effective means to trigger the mystical altered state

well whatever you mean by ergonomic its confusing if you use a word by "your" meaning and not its "intended" meaning

 

[EndlessEntity]

also you say Ego Death is purely subjective which i can see as Ego Death has to do with One's Ego.
but when my ego dies and im awareness floating in the giant cosmic crock pot im feeling pretty objective without an identity.

 

[maxfreakout]

well whatever you mean by ergonomic its confusing if you use a word by "your" meaning and not its "intended" meaning

im using the dictionary meaning:

ergonomic - designed to minimize physical effort and discomfort, and hence maximize efficiency

 

[maxfreakout]

also you say Ego Death is purely subjective which i can see as Ego Death has to do with One's Ego.
but when my ego dies and im awareness floating in the giant cosmic crock pot im feeling pretty objective without an identity.

ego death is just like any psychedelic trip, it is a private (ie subjective) experience, as opposed to public, it happens to each person individually

 

[EndlessEntity]

well whatever you mean by ergonomic its confusing if you use a word by "your" meaning and not its "intended" meaning

im using the dictionary meaning:

ergonomic - designed to minimize physical effort and discomfort, and hence maximize efficiency

it would be the Machines and Equipment that are Ergonomically created to "minimize physical effort and discomfort"
at least thats what my dictionary says, wasnt tryin to argue trivialties with you. was just confused.

your trips must be boring.
when i take a HUGE subjective trip out of my mind im thrown into a VAST OBJECTIVE UNIVERSE although inside my subjective skull this doesnt make my inner universe any less objective when viewed through silent observance.

by definition ego 'death' should kill the subjective part?

 

[maxfreakout]

there is no such thing as a 'boring trip', tripping is the ultimate thrill ride, if you feel bored it just means you havent taken enough drugs :shock:

the subjective/objective distinction isnt really relevant to the process of ego death, just like andy trip, ego death is an EXPERIENCE, and therefore it is entirely subjective

objectivity probably doesnt even exist.....

 

[ararat]

you can allude to egodeath as the very diminishing of ANY duality whatsoever, such as objective/subjective. there are no parts, aspects or anything. the experience is totally complete of and in itself. as max said, objectivity probably doesn't even exist.


max, it's good to see that you are innerly honest concerning my last statement

do you know the 8-circuit model of consciousness by Leary/RAW? some people here have talked about being able to "live in egodeath", or to have mystical states of consciousness without drugs. at one point I talked about the latter, and said that it is due to relinquishing the identification with the ego, at which point you came along and told me that I'm creating a false dichotomy and that what I'm talking about is actually egodeath - or something along that.. now, these 'lesser' states got a topic again and you say they aren't egodeath and that we mix them up.

the states we can very well reach without drugs (as it happened to me often enough), are circuit 5 experiences. they are characterised by blissful states, feelings of oneness etc., the zen/yoga mind-body connection.
egodeath, on the other hand is a lot more radical than circuit 5 states. egodeath would now refer to glimpses of the nonlocal quantum circuit, number 8 in the series.

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-Circuit_ ... sciousness


very vague, I know. but a big 'problem' in this topic here is that it isn't really clear what we are all talking about. for one person egodeath or relinquishing the identification with the ego already starts at circuit 5 experiences, for others egodeath is the peak experience that takes place at the activation of circuit 8.

 

[Jeniger]

When someone can only see egodeath as something related to tripping, it says something about their own place on the path... Its beautifull to feel commitment to subjects, but don't let emotions control u

There is a big difference between egodeath trough tripping and egodeath trough "eastern methods" (lack for a better word)

The goal of tripping is integrating the egodeath into your heart, so that your being handles out of your true self wich is the one, and not out of your ego. To integrate it fully it will take a kind of devotion for spiritual transformation, wich can take years to do...

When using "eastern methods" the practise itself integrates , so when u reach an ego death related state, u are already there for the biggest part.

We shouldnt get lost in the methods

It's obvious we all know already about the ego death with the use of substances, afther years , personally, the other methods become more interesting... especially if u want to experience the full spectrum of life

Neem Karoli took acid and said that it was known about for
thousands of years in the Kulu Valley but that nobody knew how to use them
any more. I said, "should I take it again?" He said, "it will allow you to
come in and have the Darshan of Christ. You can only stay two hours. It
would be better to become Christ than visit it, but your medicine won't do that."

 

[EndlessEntity]

you can allude to egodeath as the very diminishing of ANY duality whatsoever, such as objective/subjective. there are no parts, aspects or anything. the experience is totally complete of and in itself. as max said, objectivity probably doesn't even exist.


max, it's good to see that you are innerly honest concerning my last statement

do you know the 8-circuit model of consciousness by Leary/RAW? some people here have talked about being able to "live in egodeath", or to have mystical states of consciousness without drugs. at one point I talked about the latter, and said that it is due to relinquishing the identification with the ego, at which point you came along and told me that I'm creating a false dichotomy and that what I'm talking about is actually egodeath - or something along that.. now, these 'lesser' states got a topic again and you say they aren't egodeath and that we mix them up.

the states we can very well reach without drugs (as it happened to me often enough), are circuit 5 experiences. they are characterised by blissful states, feelings of oneness etc., the zen/yoga mind-body connection.
egodeath, on the other hand is a lot more radical than circuit 5 states. egodeath would now refer to glimpses of the nonlocal quantum circuit, number 8 in the series.

--> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8-Circuit_ ... sciousness

exactly ego death can be a shocking slap in the face for some kid on lsd or dmt but it is still ego death if its just someone meditating and this distinction between subjective and objective is what defines ego death.

objectivity, like any word or thought, is a human creation. everyone lives in their own subjective bubbles (their ego's, their personality, their prejudice, and everyting else that has built up in their awareness, including mental blocks and stigmas) by definition when you go through "ego death" your blocking the part of you that identifies you with everything else out. you become one with the chaos of psychedelia or even just one with nature or one with people all around you but either way you cease to be YOU because your ego has disappeared. so you lose the "subjectivity" and are released into the "objectivity" of the entire universe thats inside of your skull, because we are only methods for the universe to express itself.
objectivity is just drawing a line of perspective by comparing my subjective bubble with your subjective bubble. the world inbetween that we both "agree" on could be deemed the "physical" "objective" "reality".

lets not forget.
religion. education. politics. capitalism. thinking. eating. having kinky sex. taking psychedelic drugs.
EVERYTHING we do
is an attempt to permanently anchor ourselves in a temporary transient existence.

 

[maxfreakout]

There is a big difference between egodeath trough tripping and egodeath trough "eastern methods" (lack for a better word)

ego death is ego death, it's when you trip too hard and freak out, the 'eastern methods' are no different from the western methods, ie DRUGS. Any experience that doesnt involve freaking out and losing control is only going to strengthen and reassure ego, certainly not cause it to 'die' in the flames of hell

To integrate it fully it will take a kind of devotion for spiritual transformation, wich can take years to do..

there is no reason it should take this long, so long as you have an appropriate model to structure the experience, the full integration can take place in a matter of months

When using "eastern methods" the practise itself integrates , so when u reach an ego death related state, u are already there for the biggest part.

you are making a false distinction here between 'eastern' methods, and the methods the rest of the world uses. There is only one method to relaibly trigger the intense mystical altered state which is a prerequisite of experiencing ego death, namely DRUGS.

This is a common tendency among westerners, to falsely assume that we need to travel east (or else, to South America) in order to effect psychological transformation. You dont need to go anywhere, we are perfectly well-equipped right here

It's obvious we all know already about the ego death with the use of substances, afther years , personally, the other methods become more interesting... especially if u want to experience the full spectrum of life

there arent any 'other methods' for reliably triggering the intense altered states, you have to take drugs, all the other practises such as meditation and yoga are only really useful as ancillary practises to be used alongside the drug induced altered states

 

[maxfreakout]

do you know the 8-circuit model of consciousness by Leary/RAW?

yes i am aware of that, but i dont think it has much explanatory relevance with regard to ego death, it is unnecessarily convoluted

some people here have talked about being able to "live in egodeath", or to have mystical states of consciousness without drugs.

yes they have but it is very clear that they are not talking about the same thing and therefore there is no justification for using the same term (since they are talking about something entirely different). the term 'ego death' in the sense in which it was originally conceived, and is used by people like Grof and Leary, has purely psychedelic connotations, it means tripping out on drugs and thinking that you have died. No serious writer has ever used the term 'ego death' to refer to the kind of vague, drug free, non-intense, non-overwhelming experience that is being alluded to by some posters on this thread

ego death is not something you 'live in', it is something that is experienced transiently, ego death is always followed by ego rebirth, except that the ego which is reborn is fundamentally transformed by the experience. after ego death, you no longer literally believe in yourself

at one point I talked about the latter, and said that it is due to relinquishing the identification with the ego, at which point you came along and told me that I'm creating a false dichotomy and that what I'm talking about is actually egodeath - or something along that.. now, these 'lesser' states got a topic again and you say they aren't egodeath and that we mix them up.

this issue is not complicated, there is no reason to make it complicated. Ego death is an incredibly powerful, intense, overwhelming and 'life-changing' (ie transformative) experience. Any experience which does not powerfully overwhelm ego and permanently transform the mind is not ego death.

the states we can very well reach without drugs (as it happe
ned to me often enough), are circuit 5 experiences. they are characterised by blissful states, feelings of oneness etc., the zen/yoga mind-body connection.
egodeath, on the other hand is a lot more radical than circuit 5 states. egodeath would now refer to glimpses of the nonlocal quantum circuit, number 8 in the series.

Leary/Anton-Wilson's 8-circuit model doesnt have any relevance to this issue, it doesnt have any special explanatory power and it neednt be introduced into the discussion (correct me if im wrong, but i dont think Leary and A.W themselves used the 8 circuit model to explain ego death, and ego death is not mentioned on the wiki link you posted). The basic point is, without drugs it is practically impossible to ergonomically trigger the intense mystical altered state of consciousness which overwhelms ego (ie it causes loss of mental control)

the kind of drug-free experiences that people have been inappropriately calling 'ego death' here are clearly not experiences of intense control loss which profoundly challenge the ego

a big 'problem' in this topic here is that it isn't really clear what we are all talking about. for one person egodeath or relinquishing the identification with the ego already starts at circuit 5 experiences, for others egodeath is the peak experience that takes place at the activation of circuit 8.

it is perfectly clear what is being talked about, ie the experience which 'kills' the ego, it is the same for everyone, sometimnes when you trip too hard, you think that you have died

 

[maxfreakout]

exactly ego death can be a shocking slap in the face for some kid on lsd or dmt but it is still ego death if its just someone meditating and this distinction between subjective and objective is what defines ego death.

Ego death is ALWAYS a mega-shocking slap in the face, the kind of gentle, easy experience you allude to here is not going to cause ego to 'die', it is only going to reassure ego

and the distinction between subjective and objective has no relevance whatsoever, since ego death is a subjective experience

objectivity, like any word or thought, is a human creation.

the concept of objectivity is a human creation, but objectivity itself (if it even exists) is not