On killing the ego

[IJesusChrist]

the crucial, million-dollar 'insight' that tripping reveals is the illusory nature of cross-time self-identity (ie the ego-agent), when you come to fully acknowledge this, and retain this acknowledgement permanently in the ordinary state of consciousness, you are 'an enlightened sage', a hallowed saint, divinely chosen prophet, philosopher-king etc etc (choose your metaphor)

what should have began that statement or ended it is:

In my opinion

 

[HeartCore]

these are not 'alternatives' to drugs, because none of them can 100% guarantee that you will experience the intense mystical state of consciousness. Drugs are the only method that can make this guarantee, when you take drugs you will invariably trip, when you dont take drugs you wont.

Drugs don't guarantee a mystical state of consciousness, they only guarantee a profound alteration of ones perception/consciousness. It's the set and setting that provide the content/possibility of a mystical experience. I think it's presumptuous, but I've been there myself, to think that someone dedicated to for example karma yoga, cannot reach the same insights as someone who got there on 'drugs' in approximately the same time. I even bet that someone who got there with practice and patience in a decade or two, is better equipped to deal with the insights and integrate them more naturally in their life as opposed to someone who stumbled upon those planes by accident after taking a double dose of psilocybian mushrooms.

We westerners are kind of arrogant, we presume we understand these states and think we know all there is to there much too easy, Don't get me wrong, I've been there as well. One only needs to look at different Ayahausca cultures and how shamen are trained to realize that we have only just scratched the surface of these other planes.

 

[EndlessEntity]

thats true heartcore, we must humble ourselves and learn all we can with an open mind.

 

[maxfreakout]

Drugs don't guarantee a mystical state of consciousness, they only guarantee a profound alteration of ones perception/consciousness.

How exactly do you distinguish between a 'profound altered state' and a 'mystical state'? - The 'profound alteration of consciousness' just IS the mystical state. The recent study by Roland Griffiths confirmed this: http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/bin/s/m/ ... ocybin.pdf psilocybin typically causes fully mystical experiences

It's the set and setting that provide the content/possibility of a mystical experience. I think it's presumptuous, but I've been there myself, to think that someone dedicated to for example karma yoga, cannot reach the same insights as someone who got there on 'drugs' in approximately the same time. I even bet that someone who got there with practice and patience in a decade or two, is better equipped to deal with the insights and integrate them more naturally in their life as opposed to someone who stumbled upon those planes by accident after taking a double dose of psilocybian mushrooms.

doing yoga without drugs does not allow access to the intense altered states, you do not 'trip' without taking drugs. Only the drugs allow immediate, reliable and repeatable access to altered state experiences

We westerners are kind of arrogant, we presume we understand these states and think we know all there is to there much too easy, Don't get me wrong, I've been there as well. One only needs to look at different Ayahausca cultures and how shamen are trained to realize that we have only just scratched the surface of these other planes.

Ayahuasca shamans are fully acquianted with the altered states, they are trained to assist other people in experiencing these states, people have always been accessing these states for millions of years, so it seems unusual to suggest that we are 'only just scratching the surface'.

 

[EndlessEntity]

fasting and staying up for days makes you "trip"
yoga does alot for you if you do it right you could see it as a "trip".

 

[ararat]

doing yoga without drugs does not allow access to the intense altered states, you do not 'trip' without taking drugs. Only the drugs allow immediate, reliable and repeatable access to altered state experiences

what do you base this on?

 

[maxfreakout]

doing yoga without drugs does not allow access to the intense altered states, you do not 'trip' without taking drugs. Only the drugs allow immediate, reliable and repeatable access to altered state experiences

what do you base this on?

i know from having done yoga myself that it doesnt trigger an intense altered state, and i know from having done drugs myself that they do trigger these altered states, 100% guaranteed

and also, i have never heard anyone seriously claiming that yoga is a means of altering consciousness, certainly none of the millions of instructional yoga videos would make this claim

 

[IJesusChrist]

Max you're contradicting yourself.

First you say schizophrenics achieve ego death.

Then, within 2 or 3 posts you say we cannot reach these states without drugs.

That is a big fxing contradiction...

In fact, after some sex last night, I was meditating in bed and I went into a very heavy trip, identicle to that of psilocybin thought, without the OEV's. I sure as hell had the CEV's. Maybe you don't meditate at the right times or possibly haven't done it for long enough...

I think, with the contradiction you made, I really can't believe you are writing a thesis about this subject...

 

[maxfreakout]

First you say schizophrenics achieve ego death.

Then, within 2 or 3 posts you say we cannot reach these states without drugs.

Drugs are the only safe, repeatable, reliable, controllable way to trigger temporary mystical state experiences (in short, they are the only ergonomic tool for altering consciousness). Schizophrenic people cannot control entry and exit from the altered states as trippers can, instead schizophrenics are at the mercy of an unstable, uncontrollable oscillation between states of consciousness

Maybe you don't meditate at the right times or possibly haven't done it for long enough...

here you are affirming the superiority of entheogens over non-drug using techniques, because you can take drugs at any time and you will be guaranteed to trip, and you dont need to have any prior experience, you just take drugs and trip, by contrast with meditation it is very rare to achieve the kinds of intense altered states that drugs automatically induce

i am presenting my phd research at the mind-altering sciences conference next weekend, you should come along

 

[IJesusChrist]

If I could, I would...

I assure you though, without doubt I can transcend to the planes of altered consciousness... Relaxation and meditation are a must, but it is most certainly possible.

I will never be able to have OEV's on demand, nor will I completely lose possibility to connect with reality on demand. Those two states require a mental illness or a drug, I agree.

 

[EndlessEntity]

or intense meditation and yoga... i've had OEV's sober before everyone has..

 

[maxfreakout]

I will never be able to have OEV's on demand, nor will I completely lose possibility to connect with reality on demand. Those two states require a mental illness or a drug, I agree.

the OEVs and the loss of connection with reality are practically the same thing, - you lose connection to external physical reality because the OEVs make the world seem less 'real' and more like a mental projection, so you lose the ability to believe in the mind-independent status of the physical world.

It is precisely this loss of connection with external (mind-independent) reality which leads the mind to the ego death insight, - just as physical objects seem less real when they are warping and rippling with psychedelic visuals, so too does the ego-entity seem less real when it is viewed through the psychedelic lense

 

[EndlessEntity]

you can disconnect on command, or produce OEV's. you just have to practice and concentrate.

 

[maxfreakout]

you can disconnect on command, or produce OEV's. you just have to practice and concentrate.

you certainly can do that if you have HPPD, but for the vast majority of people, tripping on demand without drugs is practically impossible

the visual aspect of a trip (ie the perceptual level) is only the most superficial part, what is really deep and important in a trip is what goes on at the underlying cognitive level (ie the transformation in cognitive representations as opposed to perceptual representations)

 

[EndlessEntity]

its nowhere near impossible. it doesnt make it impossible if people are too lazy to practice something. i mean people have all sorts of valid excuses alot of people have tough lives but even so that doesnt mean its "impossible" or practically impossible cuz its very attainable.

 

[EndlessEntity]

and like i said my mom does this in her yoga and shes never done drugs
she doesnt have HPPD. though i might thats a possibility i suppose

 

[EndlessEntity]

doing yoga without drugs does not allow access to the intense altered states, you do not 'trip' without taking drugs. Only the drugs allow immediate, reliable and repeatable access to altered state experiences

what do you base this on?[/quote]


i know from having done yoga myself that it doesnt trigger an intense altered state, and i know from having done drugs myself that they do trigger these altered states, 100% guaranteed

and also, i have never heard anyone seriously claiming that yoga is a means of altering consciousness, certainly none of the millions of instructional yoga videos would make this claim[/quote]


what? dude go get a REAL yoga tape the claim it makes is exactly that. maybe you werent doing the yoga right? maybe you didnt do it for long enough? it takes practice you cant expect to just do yoga once and have it work.

 

[Brugmansia]

Entheogens -> ? ?

Yoga -> ?? $

 

[trick]

i know the topic is on ego death and not yoga but.
ive found yoga to be extremly mind altering. not in the way that your "tripping" or "high" but it does indeed provide a sense of well being and love for yourself/your surrondings. especally after doing hot yoga.

being in a hot room for an hour and a half doing yoga really pushes your body to its limits when you first start. but the second you walk out the room, your greeted with the most amazing feeling/mood. ive never experienced ego death so i dont have anything to compare it to, but you walk out of those doors feeling completly diffrent about yourself. try it, i speak truth.

when i would greet my mom after doing yoga she would always comment on how different i was when after i finished.
to me that sounds like some form of ego death without drugs.

i would always travel to the yoga place blasting gangsta rap and when i was finished ide leave wanting to hear the wind in the car window :mrgreen:
-Trick

 

[EndlessEntity]

lol driving to yoga blasting gangsta rap... really paints a unique picture

but yea theres hundreds of types of yoga and most of them produce "effects" if you do it "right"
just becuase you havnt had enough practice doing yoga or meditation doesnt make the drugs a more reliable repeatable way.
what about drug tolerance?