Money should be discontinued.

[Jerika_Rain]

why is god's name do you think everyone will be "living to work"

people don't live for work...if they do, that's sad. i live for my family and for myself...not for a 9-5. so that concept sounds pretty bogus to me.

a doctor could step into the role of delivery guy a lot easier than the delivery guy could step into a doctor's role. i think there is a good chance that i could do your job a lot easier than you could do mine. Some require far more knowledge and skill than others. If you can't admit that then there is literally nothing to talk about.

people aren't going to live to work....you are forcing people to work whether it's for money or whether it's so people can give them handouts.

as much as you would like it to be so, everyone is not "equal" nor should they be. everyone is entitled to respect and everyone's LIFE is as valuable as the next person's....but everyone isn't and shouldn't have to be on the same playing field. Why should people who put forth no effort be rewarded and catered to?

 

[Apeiron]

why is god's name do you think everyone will be "living to work"

people don't live for work...if they do, that's sad. i live for my family and for myself...not for a 9-5. so that concept sounds pretty bogus to me.

a doctor could step into the role of delivery guy a lot easier than the delivery guy could step into a doctor's role. i think there is a good chance that i could do your job a lot easier than you could do mine. Some require far more knowledge and skill than others. If you can't admit that then there is literally nothing to talk about.

people aren't going to live to work....you are forcing people to work whether it's for money or whether it's so people can give them handouts.

as much as you would like it to be so, everyone is not "equal" nor should they be. everyone is entitled to respect and everyone's LIFE is as valuable as the next person's....but everyone isn't and shouldn't have to be on the same playing field. Why should people who put forth no effort be rewarded and catered to?

You work to contribute to "something(s)". You fail to see the things you contribute to outside your busy American life because you are extremely short sighted and self centered(in general).
And yes some jobs are much more technical than others, I don't deny that. But once you've practice enough at something to reach a certain level of proficiency then efficiency, difficulty is relative and relevant only to ones experience and aptitude.
I honestly don't think people don't want to work AT ALL. I think they would like it if they didnt have to work AS MUCH. 32 hours to 24 hours of work a week, car pooling of course. But I tend to think because people can work anywhere they want, they're most likely going to prefer working as close to home as possible... Further, simultaneously fortifying the community bond and saving gas on shorter commutes.

Oh yea, do you think it's a good idea if the work week hours were adjustable to the unemployment rate?.. :roll:

 

[Apeiron]

Pretty sure if people were cognizant they were contributing to a less violent world they wouldn't mind a little equality.

 

[IJesusChrist]

My cents -

For those of you lost in the question of how money can be lived without, that is a perfect answer for a capitalist. You are a capatilist, almost by blood.

You have alot to read about in anarchism, marxism, and other alternatives.

Granted money itself - not a problem. People create ideals and ideologies around money which bring it to an evil; greed.

This is one of the most complex topics you can think of, it is the drive for all of us, yet it is made by us, it is not a mineral, it is not a food, it is not any source of energy - it is a symbol, yet we all want it and we all need it to live (especially if we're browsing a forum).

To say it could be discontinued is a bit premature in your knowledge, but to say that money is an absolute necessity, you are to a point of being blinded. There are very basic concepts that need to be put in place where money will no longer cause such evil - but they are too basic to be studied, and too basic for the 21st century to uphold.

If I told you that you had to live in downtown to work in down town, you would probably get angry with me, say its not possible, say it's too expensive, or a number of other things. At that point I would tell you not to live in downtown, and get a new job closer to where you live - you would say it doesn't pay enough, and it doesn't accomodate your needs. The problem is not the money, but the ideology in which you live.

It is not OK to drive to work every day
It is not OK to work from dawn until dusk
It is not OK for prices near your work to be higher than your wages
It is not OK to have your work not fit your interests, or if they don't you need to be compensated.

What has happened is a hurling over of ideas that were not OK, but nobody at the time saw the problem. The free way is an ideological monster, a hidden domination over us all - it is paid for by you at some point, but facilitates movement from the inner city to the outer, where your job and your house are respectively. Yet you cannot live in a big city - the crime, the pollution, the noise. All of these are by products of the early onset of mega-capitalism, mega-consumerism, and in fact, ALL stem from the highway and freeway system itself.

What you are all argueing over is not the same thing, and argueably none of it is created by money. You should take your discussion to the ideological advancement of consumerism, post-consumerism, capitalism, international trade, internation corporations, owners and CEO's, interest in banks, debt, and beyond. Getting rid of the paper that institutes it all will just make the beast angry.

 

[Apeiron]

That's true. The people with power never want to lose it...
Protest

 

[Crimzen]

Crimzen, Why should a cardiac surgeon reap the same benefits as a grocery bagger? I agree that people should be judged on their character....but how can you justify not rewarding hard work and a more significant role?

Thats a fair question

Perhaps creating a tiered system where the highly skilled and the arduously labored people are afforded more luxury items or access to more "flashy" cars and such, but then i suppose that creates division and greed
Perhaps they could be rewarded with something other than material things, for example someone who is highly skilled is able to have someone else clean their house or something (that would be someone elses job, to clean doctors homes) as no one would have money to pay maids or butlers or cooks this could be a way to keep these jobs available as well as rewarding those who choose to work a harder or more complicated job

this is just what comes to mind, maybe even add periodical holidays for certain jobs etc.
there are endless services and things to be rewarded with

money is really just a middle man

 

[Jerika_Rain]

Crimzen, it sounds like these are more viable solutions than anything apeiron has offered up but I think then it undermines what he is looking for. Money is gone but people are still "not equal." Whether it is money, materials, or services, it still makes some people "above" others which will ultimately lead to the same problems that money can create. People will end up with the same greed/envy etc because someone cleans Joe's house but no one cleans theirs.

I think the biggest problem I'm having with you Apeiron is that every time you say "people," you really mean "you."

You are making the dangerous assumption that all people share your beliefs and desires or that all people should share your beliefs and desires.

"People" might not be ok with working 24-36 hours. That's YOU.

"People" might not just be satisfied with contributing to society without reward. That's YOU.

Everything you argue is what you want personally and I don't think that it's fair to assume that everyone wants that or that the ideal world that YOU would like to live in is really the same thing as the ideal world.

To me that is self centered so for you to claim that I am is a little off base I would say,

 

[Apeiron]

Every thing only remains the same for the remainder of it's existence.

ONLY everything remains the same for the remainder of it's existence.

Souls are everything.

Souls are the particles of things we see and know as energy or matter, that make up the objects and tangible energy in our conscious universe. 
Each particle of energy or matter that we come in contact with in our lives is being absorbed and transformed into different systems of our being through every combination of reactions between energy or matter in the universe in an instant.. And back again.
Souls exist at the mental center of each being of every physical universe only until it fully unites or collides with it's polar equal being or "element" or until the universe of the being destroys the being.

Elements and energy ARE souls.

Our being experiences every level of the universe at every moment at light speed and beyond into the next tangible universe.

Even sitting still we are traveling at light speed. Straddling the line between this physical dimension and the next. If you were to suddenly stop somehow, due to some interfering contraption or media. Or death of the being, due to it's friction with it's physical universe or collision with another being, we would experience the next dimension/conscious perspective/life.

Every time we move or don't move we experience the collisions down from the most outward skin cell to the most inward nerve cell. Every energy in the universe is being transformed into us and into something else in the form of particles that polar equalize each other or turn one into the other and back creating every possible energy and material in the process on a sub particle level but settling on a specific combination of matter or energy manifestation. 
The sun gives us energy on our skin and produces vitamin d and other things from the physical reaction combinations between the energies and matter involved down to our soul... Our soul is our purest logic at the center of our thoughts. Conscious collisions at the center of our souls create  ........ Images. Through life the images and things we experience create distraction or learning.
At night when physical distraction is minimal think, day dream or more purely we sleep and dream. Sleeping/dreaming not only allows the physical being to literal try to reconstruct what damage the universe does to it but also raises the consciousness to it's maximum potential. This allows us to see and empathize things in our or another physical dimension. 

Every good or bad dream. Every wet dream. Every nightmare. Is conscious collision of the soul of every being in every universe. In those universe the things you think of as impossible are reality not because you thought it but because IT HAPPENED. Every dream of flying and scene of terror or torture has already occurred exactly as you experience it in a dream. This also means every beautiful or terrible thing we do is another beings best or nightmarish dream.
When the soul has to toil in the beings universe and focus on and dwell on trivial things like trying to "make a way in this world"... Our soul, our consciousness ceases to grow. This is why some beings seem dumber than others.
Not only could have been a genetic disorder caused by a collision, they may have also been neglected in their development through distractions of trivial matters of it's existence or it's missing key learning windows of maximum conscious awareness do to their alleged teachers distractions, and not fully mentally engaging the student. 
Each one of us is a student. Each is a teacher until we reach our maximum conscious potential as a species. 
Our struggles are what keep our consciousness distracted with preserving the body. While those who wish to rule the world have NOTHING BUT opportunity grasped through wealth and power to expand their consciousness and devise new ways to bolster their power and wealth.

 

[Apeiron]

Crimzen, it sounds like these are more viable solutions than anything apeiron has offered up but I think then it undermines what he is looking for. Money is gone but people are still "not equal." Whether it is money, materials, or services, it still makes some people "above" others which will ultimately lead to the same problems that money can create. People will end up with the same greed/envy etc because someone cleans Joe's house but no one cleans theirs.

I think the biggest problem I'm having with you Apeiron is that every time you say "people," you really mean "you."

You are making the dangerous assumption that all people share your beliefs and desires or that all people should share your beliefs and desires.

"People" might not be ok with working 24-36 hours. That's YOU.

"People" might not just be satisfied with contributing to society without reward. That's YOU.

Everything you argue is what you want personally and I don't think that it's fair to assume that everyone wants that or that the ideal world that YOU would like to live in is really the same thing as the ideal world.

To me that is self centered so for you to claim that I am is a little off base I would say,

Jealousy is created by the ego. If the ego didn't have to worry about simple survival it wouldn't care about what someone else can do or have. With out ego, people realize their own short comings and embrace those that can compensate. With out the distraction of greed and ego, those that can compensate will be happy to do so because they realize they are genuinely and deeply appreciated and admired by the rest of society...driving the evolution of our society towards its admirations, indefinitely, scientifically and philisophically, until it reaches maturity.

 

[Apeiron]

Crimzen, it sounds like these are more viable solutions than anything apeiron has offered up but I think then it undermines what he is looking for. Money is gone but people are still "not equal." Whether it is money, materials, or services, it still makes some people "above" others which will ultimately lead to the same problems that money can create. People will end up with the same greed/envy etc because someone cleans Joe's house but no one cleans theirs.

I think the biggest problem I'm having with you Apeiron is that every time you say "people," you really mean "you."

You are making the dangerous assumption that all people share your beliefs and desires or that all people should share your beliefs and desires.

"People" might not be ok with working 24-36 hours. That's YOU.

"People" might not just be satisfied with contributing to society without reward. That's YOU.

Everything you argue is what you want personally and I don't think that it's fair to assume that everyone wants that or that the ideal world that YOU would like to live in is really the same thing as the ideal world.

To me that is self centered so for you to claim that I am is a little off base I would say,

And I believe we can all achieve these things because I have. If you can't see past your own life mistakes or experiences to evolve your thoughts to see it too then keep it to yourself. Don't talk down on me for believing in US! That makes you look like a fucking idiot. I can't even begin to express to you how miserable you make yourself look. all jokes or offense of your ego aside it truly pains me to no end to know of anyone in your condition of mental degradation and manipulation.

You always make snide comments. "No one believes their could be a 'perfect' world like Iersuko/Apeiron proposes" or some shit like that. The fact is every "sane/moral" person wants it. It's the stress that we pass to each other and ourselves that makes it harder and harder to believe in. It is the distractions of life that corrupt our logic.

Forgive and forget yourself and maybe you'll see it too

 

[Jerika_Rain]

Thanks for your mature and adult answer. Because someone doesn't agree with you, they are a "fucking idiot." To me that screams of ego buddy. I think you need to sit down and reevaluate where you fall on this spectrum of highly evolved progressive minded people.

Because you have done something doesn't mean everyone WILL or SHOULD. Sure everyone might be capable but not everyone is infatuated with the idea of being just like you and thinking just like you.

I am not miserable in my life whatsoever but thanks for your concern. I am in fact intelligent and REASONABLE.

You are obsessed with these buzz words like "ego" and "empathy" and "logic" but trying to weave them into every single thing you say devalues them. You're a broken record and what you are saying doesn't seem to have a ton of substance behind it IMO.

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can respect that we have a difference in opinion but the fact that you insist that you have every answer, that your theory is flawless and your word is infallible in fact does not reflect well on you whatsoever.

Maybe you are unaware but the way that you've been completely unopen to your idea being questioned reeks of ego.

When is the last time you let someone down, treated them unfairly, lied to them, judged someone, bought something unnecessary? Seriously question, I would appreciate an answer as I would guess you did one, some, or all of those today. So please stop acting like you are better than everyone else.

 

[Apeiron]

Thanks for your mature and adult answer. Because someone doesn't agree with you, they are a "fucking idiot." To me that screams of ego buddy. I think you need to sit down and reevaluate where you fall on this spectrum of highly evolved progressive minded people.

i said you "look like a fucking idiot". when not taken out of context to the rest of the statement is pretty difficult for anyone reading this thread to deny...

Because you have done something doesn't mean everyone WILL or SHOULD. Sure everyone might be capable but not everyone is infatuated with the idea of being just like you and thinking just like you.

sure everyone should want to be themselves but no person should want to be the cognizant nor oblivious accessory to human degradation...

I am not miserable in my life whatsoever but thanks for your concern. I am in fact intelligent and REASONABLE.

You are corrupted, and you believe this to be true to justify your decisions in life...

You are obsessed with these buzz words like "ego" and "empathy" and "logic" but trying to weave them into every single thing you say devalues them. You're a broken record and what you are saying doesn't seem to have a ton of substance behind it IMO.

"i know what you are but what am i?"?
i dont know how else to respond to this. this statement is completely nonsensical...

I think everyone is entitled to their opinion and I can respect that we have a difference in opinion but the fact that you insist that you have every answer, that your theory is flawless and your word is infallible in fact does not reflect well on you whatsoever.

my theory is not flawless. everyone does have an opinion and i'm willing to listen to any opinion that doesnt reek of corruption. all you've done is point out ways or reasons you think nothing i've said could work. not once have you built upon an idea that would work for everyone or proposed an idea that may work for civilazation as a whole other than our present one that OBVIOUSLY DOES NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE!.. DUH

Maybe you are unaware but the way that you've been completely unopen to your idea being questioned reeks of ego.

SEE ABOVE STATEMENT AND THINK ABOUT THE WAY YOU CONVEY YOURSELF TO ME.

When is the last time you let someone down, treated them unfairly, lied to them, judged someone, bought something unnecessary? Seriously question, I would appreciate an answer as I would guess you did one, some, or all of those today. So please stop acting like you are better than everyone else.

I try not to set a date i dont think i'll make and i always perform to the best of my capabilities...
"unfairly" is an opinion of perspective...
I don't lie to the best of my knowledge...
I never judge someone with out getting to know them unless i perceive a hazard of some kind. Everyone judges. I definitely dont judge based on anything visual about anyone...
hmmm.. the last i time i bought something unnecessary is a hard one.. besides plants and supplies for the plants which are necessary.. perhaps a pair of purple Radii shoes about 4 months ago or so...
..and im not acting like im better. I'm acting like i know you can think better...

 

[Apeiron]

"Jealousy is created by the ego. If the ego didn't have to worry about simple survival it wouldn't care about what someone else can do or have. With out ego, people realize their own short comings and embrace those that can compensate. With out the distraction of greed and ego, those that can compensate will be happy to do so because they realize they are genuinely and deeply appreciated and admired by the rest of society...driving the evolution of our society towards its admirations, indefinitely, scientifically and philisophically, until it reaches maturity"

does this mean anything to you?

money is a wedge between us all.

 

[Apeiron]

we are taught from a very young age to emulate what we think it takes to obtain and retain what we are told and shown, we and everyone else, should want...

 

[Jerika_Rain]

I am corrupted because i don't agree with you? That sounds awfully judgmental to me.

 

[Crimzen]

yeah umm
apeiron you're acting out a bit man, its cool to be passionate about something you care about but lets keep this to a discussion rather than an argument because that way it stays on topic
just slow down a bit

so back on topic..

Crimzen, it sounds like these are more viable solutions than anything apeiron has offered up but I think then it undermines what he is looking for. Money is gone but people are still "not equal." Whether it is money, materials, or services, it still makes some people "above" others which will ultimately lead to the same problems that money can create. People will end up with the same greed/envy etc because someone cleans Joe's house but no one cleans theirs.

Yes i suppose to an extent
but theres a limit to it, there will be richer folks and poorer folks but poor wont be homeless and starving and rich wont be billionaires with more money than they could ever possibly spend in a lifetime

its silly to think we'll ever be entirely equal, we're all different and i wouldnt want it any other way
if everything was equal it would be like a flat line rather than this vibrancy
i think things should be organised in a manner so that there is a bottom to hit and its not too low and theres also a top to hit
and to say youve reached the top of the socio economic 'ladder' is not to say you've gotten as far as you ever will in life,
i think if things were done this way there'd be more room for art and philosophy and thought in general

 

[Apeiron]

yeah umm
apeiron you're acting out a bit man, its cool to be passionate about something you care about but lets keep this to a discussion rather than an argument because that way it stays on topic
just slow down a bit

so back on topic..

Crimzen, it sounds like these are more viable solutions than anything apeiron has offered up but I think then it undermines what he is looking for. Money is gone but people are still "not equal." Whether it is money, materials, or services, it still makes some people "above" others which will ultimately lead to the same problems that money can create. People will end up with the same greed/envy etc because someone cleans Joe's house but no one cleans theirs.

Yes i suppose to an extent
but theres a limit to it, there will be richer folks and poorer folks but poor wont be homeless and starving and rich wont be billionaires with more money than they could ever possibly spend in a lifetime

its silly to think we'll ever be entirely equal, we're all different and i wouldnt want it any other way
if everything was equal it would be like a flat line rather than this vibrancy
i think things should be organised in a manner so that there is a bottom to hit and its not too low and theres also a top to hit
and to say youve reached the top of the socio economic 'ladder' is not to say you've gotten as far as you ever will in life,
i think if things were done this way there'd be more room for art and philosophy and thought in general

I admit what you proposed is a good step towards equality much like every step towards true equality before us. that's beautiful.
I don't want every one to BE exactly the same because due to inumerable reasons and conditions whether developmental or genetic everyone will never have the same capacity nor aptitude. Individuality is beautiful in all it's forms. Discrimination and anything that creates it is what must be eliminated. As an action or an idea.
People who would have a major problem with true equality(any reason including class) are people who feel that they are more important. Serving your role in a community isn't enough with out some huge kick back. Those people also hold bias for what their role has already done for them in our current system and don't want it any other way because theres nothing BIGGER or BETTER in it for them. Anyone can get what they "struggled" for. Everyone who has ever tried for something struggles. It's relative.
Everyone struggles/struggled.
Dollar signs should never be incentive to realize ones dream.
Anyway. Good point I'll try to stay on subject.

 

[Apeiron]

Honest question to help me gain perspective:

Are we denying those of unfavorable circumstance, that naturally possess less capacity, of more possession?
Rewarding those of favorable circumstance, with naturally more capacity, with more possession?
Or both?

 

[Apeiron]

I am corrupted because i don't agree with you? That sounds awfully judgmental to me.

You're corrupted because you agree with inequality.
A judgment based on inferences based on facts of the conversation...
Never said I don't judge. I judge substance.

 

[Crimzen]

Honest question to help me gain perspective:

Are we denying those of unfavorable circumstance, that naturally possess less capacity, of more possession?
Rewarding those of favorable circumstance, with naturally more capacity, with more possession?
Or both?

no because the training and education will be free therefore circumstance will have nothing to do with it
it would be a level playing field in that regard
the only thing stopping the grocery bagger from being a doctor would be either lack of will to be one or a genuine ineptitude for the subject