Mind-Space, tripping without drugs

[Larzsolice18]

Mind-Space is an impossible subject to write about, because it does not exist! Yet, it is responsible for the phenomenon we call ‘perception.’ It is merely a description of some-thing beyond the realm of our conscious physical experience, and therefore, any attempt to describe it will be misleading.

A visual analogue could be a pitch black, spherical room, with you in the center. To the north is a pole, which we refer to as Space-Time. I simply call it space, because movement in Space implies movement in Time; it’s the same thing. To the south is the pole called Mind-Body. It one cannot separate the experiences of the mind and the body, because experience implies consciousness, which relates to mind; mind and body are the same thing!

In the room, you can move anywhere. The further north you are, the greater the part of your perception that is based in Space-Time; the further south you are, the greater the part of your perception that is based in Mind-Body. Mind-Space is what you ‘perceive’ is you become aware of this, and the deeper that awareness, the freer you are to move around within Mind-Space. Everyone experiences what I call Mind-Space, but few are truly aware of it, and those who are will undoubtedly have described it differently, depending on where in Mind-Space they were when they described it. Note that if Space-Time is four dimensional, Mind-Space must have more dimensions, which is why it is so hard to describe.

Interpreting this as experience, one can see that ‘perception’ is a combination of the poles: Space-Time and Mind-Body. When one is focusing more on the Space-Time element, one is aware of ‘physical’ interpretations of stimuli. When one is focusing more on the Mind-Body element, one is more aware of ‘paramental’ interpretations of stimuli. By paramental interpretations, I am referring to a way of thinking about and experiencing that which beyond logic or the description of words – even this description fails to touch upon it. An inaccurate description would be like experiencing the world as your soul, but this is misleading.

Because Mind-Space is a dimensional continuum, it is possible to consciously move within it. This movement is experienced as a change in: mood, state of mind, even personality – as your position in Mind-Space affects which memories are relevant in that moment. Becoming aware of Mind-Space, and learning how to ‘move within it’ is analogous to having learned how to willfully induce a psychedelic experience!

 

[Larzsolice18]

Perhaps the easiest way to experience it is to take a trip - the heavier, the better - and to pay attention to everything which you are aware of. Don't try and think about it, or explain the experience, just try to notice as much as you can. Then, as the trip starts wearing off, you have to try and keep focus on what you have perceived. Over time, the experience will fade into your subconscious. By trying to remember how you experienced the world on the trip, you will in fact be training your mind how to consciously enter an altered state. It gives me the visual impression or a zoomed in picture, where if you look at the tree to the left of the picture, then your entire picture centers itself around the tree (what you focus on is always the center of your perception.) In context of Mind-Space, this would be seen as a movement in one or several dimensions. I do not approve of this method, however, because the process of becoming aware of Mind-Space is extremely indirect and time consuming. By indirect, I mean that it will teach you how to move in Mind-Space, but it wouldn't necessarily make you aware of what Mind-Space is.

 

[Larzsolice18]

Take care not to take this literally, but use the literal to guide you to the unexplainable.

The usefulness of Mind-Space lies in the ability to distinguish, and therefore remember, different moods, or states of mind, or views of the world (there is no real English word to describe what I am actually referring to.) By being able to recognize such states of mind, one can slowly start mapping out your own mind. With this, I cannot help - minds differ immensely form each other. The easiest way to start building such a map is by "re-experiencing" your past with a technique called recapitulation.
Most people "remember" in terms of pictures or snippets of information. Recapitulation is a form of "remembering," where one first has to recognize how one feels, then use that feeling to guide one to a "memory." In truth, what we call memories are only locations within Mind-Space which we have been to before the moment in which we try to "remember." The existence of Mind-Space implies that past, present and future are only locations (this is in concurrence with Einstein's relativity, where time is a dimension, and therefore exists all at once.) Recapitulation is a way to move through time, to re-experience the moment that caused the conditioning that lead to the feeling that you used to guide you to that moment.
Yes, this is really time travel, but you cannot change anything, because that would imply that you can change the fabric of the universe - which is by definition No-Thing. Trying to remember the future in recapitulation is the same as trying to remember the future now. The only usefulness in this exercise is in the ability to slowly "un-condition" yourself, which leads to knowledge of your true self(a.k.a the Buddha nature, a.k.a unification with God, a.k.a the Psychedelic Experience as described by Leary.) But these descriptions may be misleading.

 

[ophiuchus]

interesting model, but i can dig it

 

[Larzsolice18]

My next description of Mind-Space is somewhat less orthodox to western culture, as it is based in Shamanism.
Imagine that you were in a bubble of light. This bubble is made out of all the possible "points" in Mind-Space, and is referred to by shamans as the Cocoon of Man, which is an exact replica of the universe. Only several of these "points" are illuminated at one time, by what they refer to as the point where reality is assembled, or in short, the assemblage point. Everything illuminated by this assemblage point is referred to collectively as perception. The "assemblage point" is your current location in Mind-Space.
The fact that reality is assembled is already against much of western thought, but hints towards the true nature of reality. The hints get deeper when one looks at the Cocoon of Man, because if we are reflections of the universe, we must all be connected, but the word "cocoon" implies separation. What this means is that regardless of what we perceive, we are always looking at ourselves. In psychology this is expressed by the idea that the signals your senses receive must first be interpreted by your brain before you register it as sound, or sight, etc. This happens through the same process that allows us to dream, the only difference is that while sleeping, the dream is not being directed as strongly by your senses. It has been noted that physical sensations, like putting a sleeper's hand in water, can affect the dream; but it has never to my knowledge been noted that when awake, your senses are actually being overloaded, and therefore steers the dream with overwhelming dominance. Psychedelics in general work by "moving" the barriers the brain creates (through conditioning) in order to deal with the overwhelming flood of information, to places it hasn't been since infancy. These barriers tell us how to interpret the world, but also keep us fixed in our view of the world. They are a product of society, and by releasing your conditioning, you can learn how to "move" them to any position, thus allowing yourself access to any point in Mind-Space.

 

[Larzsolice18]

There is a curious way of walking which could aid one in discovering Mind-Space:
Let your hands hang limply to your sides (in a standing position, of course). Now open your hands as wide as you can, then relax it completely - this will help you establish the most natural and comfortable position for your fingers. Notice where your fingers touch each other, at the tips and on the sides, you will eventually use the information to find the right position for your fingers. This position differs between people, so I cannot help further in this regard. The position of the fingers serves no purpose other than to distract your attention from the world around you.
To avoid getting lost in day dreams, there is a technique you do with your eyes, to distract you from the world inside you:
NEVER look directly at anything - glance at it instead. This allows you to register more information, because you do not waist time getting stuck in your observations. The focus of your vision should also not be the centre of your vision, but what you can see on the sides - the peripherals.
This is only a guideline, but practise will inevitably lead you to the right technique.
One should never speak, or engage in conversation, whilst walking in this way, nor should one be carrying anything in one's hands. The idea is to listen to your body and let it guide you; your body is already used to travelling in Mind-Space!

 

[Larzsolice18]

Mind-Space might seem to be a relatively new and novel concept, but in truth it has always existed. Most notably (for this site) in the work of Timothy Leary, when he explains the importance of Set(Mind)and Setting(Space).
In considering Setting, we immediately notice that, while the physical location is important, it also refers to a dimension of mind in that there is also a social influence of your experience of the Setting. In this description, he takes into account the physical dimension, as well as the metaphorical dimensions of Reason, Talking, Feeling, and Seeing - these could also be described as processes of the Mind, which act upon or relate to the physical setting.
In considering Set, we already know that it relates to your 'state of mind' and therefore to some other dimension which Einstein related to Energy {E=mc^2 applies to the mind in the form: [Spirit] = [physicality] x [consciousness]squared (or [Inherent Consciousness] x [Evolving Consciousness])} So, in Set we have a dimension of Spirit, as well as the metaphorical dimensions of Dreaming, Will, and what can only be rationally described as EVERY-thing and NO-thing. These dimensions relate to the mental Set, or set-up.
Notice that all my metaphorical dimensions relate to processes in the Mind, or ways of thinking, whilst the 'real' dimensions relates to actual physical processes within what we call Space. Therefore, both Set and Setting contain within them half of the dimensions of Mind, and half of the dimensions of Space (as described by Einstein's Mass/Energy equivalence[notice that mass implies depth, width and height; and time implies movement, which requires energy])

 

[masternavigator11]

tripping without drugs is not possible because the drugs make you trip over your thought, that's why its called tripping if your talking about the psychedelic experience then that's reached through intense prolonged meditation. sounds like you said something that makes you sound like its smart but its just pointing out the obvious stoner realization in fancy dressed up words to us high evolved people save it for your soap box. if you really want to understand shit learn the neurological functions and help us evolve the world. use what you have taught your self to help the weak for the strongest will be the only to take a stand

 

[Larzsolice18]

"tripping without drugs is not possible because the drugs make you trip over your thought"
I can only reply to this with the following: WTF
What is a "thought" and how do you trip over it? If meditation is meant to quiet thought, then how can you achieve a "trip-like" experience; there is no thought to trip over. Alternatively, the part of your brain that is responsible for internal dialogue is inactive on a trip, because it cannot cope with the flood of information produced by a psychedelic, so technically you cannot be thinking.

How can it possibly help me to learn the neural physiology if PSYCHONAUTICS is my concern. Leave scientific stuff to the scientists, whose knowledge is objective, and can be applied to things outside of themselves. A psychonaut's Knowledge is intensely personal and PRACTICAL, and can therefore only be applied to the psychonaut in question. There is no objective reality to Mind-Space as such, though it does depict a multi-dimensional universe in which man experiences ALL the dimensions, where science can only prove that we experience space, and time. Any true psychonaut (one who is not using psychonautics to justify their slavery to drugs) will know from experience that we are aware of everything that happens to us.

PS Imagine that acid actually CREATES the experiences it gives you. WOW, we would have to call it God: such a small chemical with as much information as that MUST be divine. Now imagine that EVERYTHING is there already. Suddenly, the drug becomes insignificant in regards to the effect. Chemists as esteemed as Alexander Shulgin are adamant that psychedelics DON'T create what we experience, instead they intoxicate the mind in such a way that the mind becomes unable to block the information that overloads it. It is because of this that it is possible to access those states of mind at will.

 

[MichaelVipperman]

Leave scientific stuff to the scientists, whose knowledge is objective, and can be applied to things outside of themselves.

I'm a scientist. Our knowledge is not objective. And the world would be a better place if more people learned scientific methods. Nothing you're describing is incompatible with science.

 

[Larzsolice18]

I apologize if my reply seemed a bit harsh, I was just annoyed at your post, because I assumed that you never read Mind-Space. I myself am studying physics and chemistry in the university, so I know that science is objective (the subjective part of science is still referred to as alchemy.) This makes sense, because the only practical value of a science which is subjective is to improve the quality of your own life. An example of this would be a psychology student who applies what he learns to his own behavior. Though he would learn a lot about psychology, it would only be knowledge of himself. Then if he applies the idea that our brains "dream" images stimulated by our senses in the act of perception, he would realize that regardless of what he knows, he will only notice things that are in the Frame of Reference which he has at the moment. This is much like constantly looking at a mirror. Using this in an objective setting such as with a patient, the psychologist is in a much better position to help him, because he knows himself, and can remove his own preconceived ideas and help the patient from within the patient's point of view.
Science abhors this though, because subjective results do not repeat (because our co-ordinates within Mind-Space can never repeat) and subjective results are hard to measure. They only need to see that subjective results serve to help the scientist understand the universe more holistically, so that he is free to think with clearity.

 

[HermesTrismegistus]

Leave scientific stuff to the scientists, whose knowledge is objective, and can be applied to things outside of themselves.

I'm a scientist. Our knowledge is not objective. And the world would be a better place if more people learned scientific methods. Nothing you're describing is incompatible with science.

I'll thought about this several times, but is science not objective and subjective at the same time?

I mean, if we take the time where we live in right at this moment, then there are many laws that are/seem to be scientific, atleast all the scientists have no doubts about many laws of nature. But when time passes on, new discovery's of certain scientific laws are made and old laws seem suddenly to be rubbish and do fade away as scientific mistakes. Do this so called mistakes, don't make science also objective...? Is it not like, that time changes everything? Isn't it true, that onces there was a time where scientists claimed in the name of science, that the world was flat? Well the scientist at this moment in time, all would laugh about this and that they all have no doubts that the world is as round as a ball....

 

[ophiuchus]

:thumbsup:

 

[Mescaline]

All science is necessarily subjective because it describes reality as it appears to us, not as it truly "is".
Pretty funny actually as the only way to get any objective knowledge is by taking ourselves out of the picture, which to me seems to be the realm of mysticism and spirituality.. which is thought of as very subjective by most, and not objective at all...
hehe, the world turned upside down... or I'm just really tired (4AM)

 

[jaywabz]

"slavery to drugs" lol i agree that its ironic many ppl achieve a transcendental experience upon the reliance of an external substance, when are minds are so wired and evovled to filter out the full spectrum of experience.

 

[ophiuchus]

^ hence buddhists are not "banned" from taking psychedelics, but it is strongly suggested to learn meditation without first.

 

[KrispedKritter]

"What do you see when you turn out the lights,
I can't tell you but I know that it's mine."

I got to hand it to you, Larz, you've been navigating the sea a bit longer (probably) but definately more efficiently than myself.

When I first started with meditation (post-ego-death/revival) and encountered the strange Beings and Times of the psyche (look into Jung a bit, he spoke of this even if it might have seemed a bit naive or unevolved at the time) there was a spiritual cheer and a scientific outrage bellowing deep inside, because I had never heard of any of this stuff before, anywhere .

Now, lately, as I've been reading this and that writer, people like McKenna and Grof have touched at it, but there has always been other things for them to preoccupy their minds. I saw an article about a book about the Noosphere (on Reality Sandwich), which touches at this. All other references to the realm of the Psyche have been through second-hand experiences (most of them through Grof's therapeutic work with LSD in the 60s), Jung, and scattered factoids and interviews with Shamans. Also lately, at Higher Balance ...

The times that I have noticed myself moving in whateverplaceyou'dliketocallit, there have been these... things[i/] there, almost beckoning. Having done some psychedelics, I know not to listen to every first voice that comes to my head (hare, hare hare...) but the times that I have done so, especially in meditation (especially post-orgasm, while the gf was in the shower...) I've been thrown into what I could only call warpholes: what in the distance seemed like the flicker of a star became a tunnel of blue light moving faster and faster leading AWAY from me towards the OTHER, whatever that may be, but at the realization of this, of course, I'm thrown out of the tunnel. Other times, faces (I'm sure I stumbled upon the lovely Lene Lovich, once, in Never Never Land), in the guise of meso-american ornated masks.

To paraphrase someone (can't remember if it's Leary, Grof or someone else at the moment), the interesting thing is not that Mind-Space exists and is accessible, but that it is inhabited. Apparently, the inhabitants should cluster around certain nodes, but I haven't come to the stage where I can rely on myself to move around within Mind-Space ...

Have you tried utilizing Icaros, yet?