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Mesc extract problems

spice

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22 Déc 2006
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3 774
AKA 'methylene chloride'.....it's available over here otc as 'Gun Cleaner' from wal-mart.

It is a common ingredient in paint stripper as well....yes it smells, but if you are using a condenser with cold water the smell isn't an issue...

I found a ref where they use a strictly non polar solvent ( cyclohexane) to remove the fats from a sample of freeze-dried cactus....they used a soxhelet, too.....apparently the good stuff won't come out this way, which seems to agree with my hunch that the stuff is tenaciously bound in the biomass.

They used a mixture of chloroform/ methanol/ and ammonium hydroxide to extract the good stuff...

Methanol and DCM will mix together as an azeotrope, which means 'one layer'
which can function as a super-solvent, maybe....if I am remembering right, water, methanol, and dcm form a ternary (three part) azeotrope which would be a close approximation of those guys' solvent....( use concentrated ammomia as the 'water' part...the ammonia is probably critically important)

The more I read, the more complex it gets , as always.
 

GOD

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14 Jan 2006
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'Gun Cleaner' from wal-mart."!!!!!!!!!!!!........... I supose thats on the shelf next to the anti tank mines and napalm in the world destruction department..........

I dont understand the bit about defatting it ? Freeze dry, powder then put it in a soxhelet and use hot cyclohexane/petrol based solvent to extract the fats and then extract with a mixture of methanol , amonia and DCM ?

Amonia is a base ? So does that mean that when its mixed with methanol and dcm it extracts the mescaline as a base ? What about doing that without defatting first as the fat isnt water based and should not come out with the mescaline in that solvent mixture ?

Is the thing in the foto lying next to the seperatry funnel a soxhelet ?

I supose its the better the method and chemicals the purer and more extract one gets but that the harder the chemicals are to get and more expensive than doing it with other less efective cheeper chemicals ? So its something one has to weigh up . Ease , getting chemicals , cost , safety and return ?
 

spice

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22 Déc 2006
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Always.

re: defatting

The molecule that is mescalene (3,4,5, trimethoxy-phenethylamine)
is going to be of a more POLAR nature than the fats that exist side by side with it. These fats are strictly non-polar in character. Cyclohexane is strictly non-polar as well.....this is a case of matching a solvent closely to the material it is to extract, as always, like dissolves like.

They extracted the fats FIRST, w/ cyclohexane, discarded the cyclohexane, then took the remaining plantmass and extracted IT with the chloroform/methanol/ammonia solution.......cyclohexane is not, as I suspected, going to have enough power to pull the fats and the mesc out, so it selectively removes those molecules closest to its own nature, ie; the fats.

Yes, ammonia is a base, a pretty strong one, too....what it does is help 'loosen'
the biomass' grip on the desired molecule, so that the chloroform/ methanol
(or dcm/ methanol) can grab it and pull it free.....methanol is pretty polar. dcm is somewhat intermediate, leaning toward non-polar, and ammonia, of course is
BASIC and, since it is in water it is polar.....think of this solvent system as loosening up different parts of the molecule from the biomass.....mescaline is going to have a more complex structure, I'd guess, than the fats and stuff yoiu dont want, and it is bound tighter into the matrix of the plant material.

(whew!)
 

GOD

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14 Jan 2006
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14 944
OK . But it sounds to much for me . What about this :-

Acidify water with vinegar to PH 4 or 5 and boil powdered / liquifyed material 3 X for 20 minutes , filter , mix water bits , throw a liter of plant oil on top , swirl , cool so oils get a bit harder / thicker , separate , throw oil away . Then either evaporate water , or base water with Na2CO3 or NaHCO3 or NaOH or ammonia and filter solids off ?
 

druglessdouglas

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14 Mai 2008
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5 910
Soxhelet- is that a reflux aparatus? easy enough to cobble together if it is, ive done it on a fairly large scale to extracy plant oils before i discovered the wonders of gas. the condenser from an old fridge is the key if your using nothing that will attack brass.
acid conditions do indeed degrade fats and alow fine emulsions to form, and of course NaOH and fats produce good old soap and glycerin, extremely difficult to remove
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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2 454
pax a dit:
Hey everyone. Swim just did an a/b/a mesc extract using ctric acid as the final extract. After evaping water all swim had was a dark colored oilish looking material. PH is roughly 2, no crystal formation. Did swim do something wrong? it can't be freebase with a ph of 2 correct?

PLEASE TELL ME WHAT THE HELL "swim" MEANS?? :?:
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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pax a dit:
GOD a dit:
Explain EXACTLY what you did from begining to end please .

Pulverized fresh cacti in blender.
Boiled in citric acidic water (ph2-3) for 20 mins, strained fluid. Did this 3 times
Boiled down acidic water to syrup
Defatted with Xylene (Had to add water to syrup due to emulsion problems)
Raised PH to 14 with NaOH (accidental, added far to much NaOH)
Washed Solution 3 times w/ xylene
Washed Xylene 3 times with citric acid water (ph 1)
Collected water in pyrex dish (quite a lot of water)
Used oven to evap water down to 1/8"
Allowed to evap at room temperature for remaining water.

Water seemed to evaporate leaving me with a dark colored oil.

Mods: If this is the wrong forum please move.

Cacti doesn't contain oil!!! Or any fats in any kind!! Of course we are speaking bout Echinopsis specie. So U got "idiopatic" fat-oil. Maybe oil is product of your chem experiment? I need to look it better. But something like soap is ringing in my mind. Will see.
 

spice

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Maybe this is why they used ammonia as their base.

Obviously some kind of fats reside in these cacti, as the refs I read perform a de-fatting step.

swim= 'someone who isn't me'
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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2 454
pax a dit:
GOD a dit:
Explain EXACTLY what you did from begining to end please .

Pulverized fresh cacti in blender.
Boiled in citric acidic water (ph2-3) for 20 mins, strained fluid. Did this 3 times
Boiled down acidic water to syrup
Defatted with Xylene (Had to add water to syrup due to emulsion problems)
Raised PH to 14 with NaOH (accidental, added far to much NaOH)
Washed Solution 3 times w/ xylene
Washed Xylene 3 times with citric acid water (ph 1)
Collected water in pyrex dish (quite a lot of water)
Used oven to evap water down to 1/8"
Allowed to evap at room temperature for remaining water.

Water seemed to evaporate leaving me with a dark colored oil.

Mods: If this is the wrong forum please move.

Another reply after looking at ingredients and reactions couple seconds more. Xylene is what U see as oil! Something he has solved into "oil". Maybe something from yours chem actors like citric acid. If U use citric acid from lemon U could get some oil from lemon skin. But those amounts are not significant. So I don't know bout that?
For now, after 15 sec looking on ingredients U have produced oil by Xylene. Where U have read such extraction way??? Very unstable! CITRIC ACID FOR GOD SAKE!!! THIS ACID IS CHILD PROPAGANDA!! LIKE SHROOMS AND CITRIC ACID! PSYLOCIBIN WILL TURN HIMSELF INTO PSILOCIN MORE EFFECTIVELY THEN NORMAL DE-PHOSPHORISATION?? FAIRY TALES!!!
 

Goran.Hrsak

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spice a dit:
I have a nagging feeling that most of these solvents aren't good enough to get everything out of the material at room temperatur. The pros use what is called a
Soxhelet extraction apparatus, which is a way of using a hot solvent as a kind of 'percolator' aka an old-school coffe-maker....


I strongly feel that strict ph control and a hot solvent may be necessary to get this right.

Of course you dont need a Soxhelet, but a really big flask and a long condenser at least, would be the ticket......

SPICE MY MAN. MY FRIEND, U ARE TELLING REAL TRUTH. XYLENE ISN'T REAL STUFF FOR ALKALOID EXTRACTION. OK, HOME EXTRACTION WITHOUT PROPER TECH. ALSO WHAT U THINK BOUT CITRIC ACID OR VITAMIN C WITH PSYLOCIBIN? I AM TALKING AND TALKING BOUT THIS, PROPAGANDA AND PSYDELIC GOSSIP! WHAT ELSE PEOPLE SHALE "DISCOVER"? SHIT MIXED WITH DMT PRODUCE SIMILAR EFFECT AS MAOi? :lol: :roll: :roll: I can't believe what U and I see on NET!! PEACE.

PM me. would like to talk with U bout something.
 

Meduzz

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12 Avr 2006
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Isn't xylene better for mescaline due to their aromatic properties, which DCM has not? Likes like likes?
 

pax

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18 Sept 2008
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Good news... Swim reported that after procrastinating about washing the pyrex evap dish crystals decided to make a home. Swim has a healthy serving of a nice tan precipitate. Swim may have been off on my assumptions of it looking like an oil, I guess it was more like a syrup. Chemistry is fun :P
Anyway, swim will be preforming a re-cryst later this weekend. I'll post final yields.
Right now the salts are of the citrate variety.
 

pax

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18 Sept 2008
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Another reply after looking at ingredients and reactions couple seconds more. Xylene is what U see as oil! Something he has solved into "oil". Maybe something from yours chem actors like citric acid. If U use citric acid from lemon U could get some oil from lemon skin. But those amounts are not significant. So I don't know bout that?
For now, after 15 sec looking on ingredients U have produced oil by Xylene. Where U have read such extraction way??? Very unstable! CITRIC ACID FOR GOD SAKE!!! THIS ACID IS CHILD PROPAGANDA!! LIKE SHROOMS AND CITRIC ACID! PSYLOCIBIN WILL TURN HIMSELF INTO PSILOCIN MORE EFFECTIVELY THEN NORMAL DE-PHOSPHORISATION?? FAIRY TALES!!!

Citric acid was used for it's relative safeness. No one is going to get hurt if citric acid makes it into the final product, unlike HCL. Keep in mind that swim is very new to organic chemistry and is still learning.
Next time swim will use HCL, from what she understands any extra HCL will evaporate away with the water when the time comes anyway.
 

Goran.Hrsak

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GOD a dit:
"I love myself far too much to eat some unidentified soup . My health is worth more then the 35$ it took to purchase the cacti."

A very good point of view . But if thec PH is 6 - 7 - 8 it cant do anything bad to you . Its a cacti extract using chemicals that many people have used before with no problems .

Spice , do you mean this ? Its good at extraction but one cant get much in it and heating solvents is scary . Another problem with most solvents is that they STINK . Last time i tried something , at 3 in the morning , someone rang the police .



This is exactly, not exactly but very similar to my (one part) home lab which is spread trough many places because of cops. I am speaking bout GOD's lab kit.

Something like this would for sure gone under inspection(police lab search for only micro mass traces of some drug on spoons, epruvet, evaporers, jars, empty syringes, cotton, and everything what some small lab include and also is used in drug prep.
And can be used in that home lab which is enough for drug use and maybe manufacture conviction.

If Pigs fuck me up with 0.1grams of MDMA or any kind of drug in they will search my apartment. WHAT WILL THEY FIND??
IF THEY FIND WEED HERE (in text later) IS STORY WHAT WOULD HAPPEN AND OTHER DRUGS SCENARIO ALSO SO LISTEN MY USA FRIEND(I am not USA guy with slang from USA like swim!!! I hate such shits!!

Weed(cops is going to do home-this counts for every drug when I am talking and describing search- search for "green house"-growing), speed or E(looking for fine secretly hideout stash), meth(ephedrine-matches-iodine and small lab search), unknown powder or crystals which can't be determined with standard cop reagents, DMT-LSD-2CB-Piperazine-vitamine K-etc(every corner in my flat would be turned over for bigger lab, beating for info where I got such shit, bribe and witness protection programs), morphine(looking where is my land if I have some, searching for opium poppy fields and acetic anhydride in case if I have beside morphine some super high quality heroin.

THIS ABOVE IS MINE AWARE TIP!! DO NOT STASH IT AT HOME IF U DOESN'T USE IT THAT TIME. UNNECESSARY RISK!!

Sorry for "confusing" post.
 

pax

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18 Sept 2008
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Goran.Hrsak a dit:
GOD a dit:
"I love myself far too much to eat some unidentified soup . My health is worth more then the 35$ it took to purchase the cacti."

A very good point of view . But if thec PH is 6 - 7 - 8 it cant do anything bad to you . Its a cacti extract using chemicals that many people have used before with no problems .

Spice , do you mean this ? Its good at extraction but one cant get much in it and heating solvents is scarey . Another problem with most solvents is that they STINK . Last time i tried something , at 3 in the morning , someone rang the police .

This is exactly, not exactly but very similar to my (one part) home lab which is spread trough many places because of cops. Something like this would for sure gone under inspection(police lab search for only traces of some drug which is enough for conviction, like if they fuck me up with 100grams of MDMA or meth-doesn't matter) if I by some circumstances been caught with some kind of drugs. Weed(home search for "green house"-growing), speed or E(looking for fine secretly hideout stash), meth(ephedrine-matches-iodine and small lab search), unknown powder or crystals which can't be determined with standard cop reagents, DMT-LSD-2CB-Piperazine-vitamine K-etc(every corner in my flat would be turned over for bigger lab, beating for info where I got such shit, bribe and vitnes protection programs), morphine(looking where is my land if I have some, searching for opium poppy fields and acetic anhydride in case if I have beside morphine some super high quality heroin.

THIS ABOVE IS MINE AWARE TIP!! DO NOT STASH IT AT HOME IF U DOESN'T USE IT THAT TIME. UNNECESSARY RISK!!

It may be because I'm running on less then 3 hours of sleep, but you make no sense to me :)
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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2 454
HERE U HAVE OTHER WAY HOW TO EXTRACT MESCALINE OUT OF CACTI.
OLD WAY BUT U CAN TRUST IT. CALL SPICE THE CHEMIST TO OBSERVE IT. HE WILL TELL U IS IT GOOD! AND I AS SPICE WHAT HE THINKS? OLD RITUAL BUT GOOD?
BUNCH OF PEOPLE DO UT BY THIS WAY. TODAY IS LITTLE BIT EASIER THAT THIS ONE BUT ONLY CAUSE OF NEW CHEMICALS WHICH BY THE WAY ARE HARD TO OBTAIN. THOSE HERE ON OTHER HAND AREN'T! ENJOY.
8) :)


Extracting Alkaloids from Echinopsis Cacti


Instructions for purifying alkaloids from Tricocereus cacti. This is a general
method for concentrating alkaloids, with emphasis on mescaline, but which may be
adapted to other plants and alkaloids. It requires that the alkaloids be
relatively basic and that the base form be less soluble in water. So it would
work well for DMT, but not psilocybin or caffeine for example.
The principle of alkaloid purification is to obtain from a plant only that
fraction which is basic. This is achieved by a double layer extraction, relying
on the principle that amines (as opposed to most of the other compounds in a
plant) are soluble in acidic (the salt form) but insoluble in basic (the basic
form) aqueous solution. However, the basic form is soluble in non-polar organic
solvents whereas the acidic/salt form is not. Thus, by varying the pH, alkaloids
can be taken from aqueous solution to organic solution or vice-versa, leaving
behind other materials.
Some chemicals and equipment are important for successful extraction of
alkaloids from cactus. The chemicals include methanol, dichloromethane or
chloroform, sodium hydroxide and hydrochloric acid. The equipment includes a
distillation apparatus, a separating funnel, and various beakers and containers,
pH tester, and filter. Alternatives can be found for each of these.
Method:
Slice and dry the cactus. I haven't worked out the best way to do this; no
matter how I do it, I am always afraid that I am destroying the alkaloids.
In general, what seems to work is to slice it thinly, and run hot air over
it overnight. The more water which can be removed from the cactus at this
stage, the easier the process will be. Another possibility might be to use
a drying agent such as Calcium Chloride.
Pulverise the dried cactus. I have tried using a blender, and it seems to
work moderately well. The cactus is tough so you will have to be patient.
The finer the grinding, the better the extraction.
Extract dried cactus with methanol. Ideally this is done hot using
solvent-extraction apparatus (soxhlet). Various makeshift methods may
suffice for a hot extraction, but I have generally merely soaked the stuff
for up to a week, cold. Ideally this step should be done three times, and
the extracts concentrated. I have done it once for a week, and then washed
out the absorbed methanol with fresh methanol once or twice over an hour or
two. What you should end up with, after filtering out the bulk of the
cactus, is a green methanol extract. Ethanol or acetone could be substituted
for methanol, but neither of these is quite as effective. It is generally
desirable to use several times the weight of the dried cactus for the
methanol extraction, or at least enough to cover it well in a container.
Remove the methanol to leave just an extract residue. This is best done
using vacuum distillation, but can be done using atmospheric distillation,
to recover the solvent. If you don't mind losing several litres of methanol,
you can merely boil the stuff into the atmosphere; just avoid starting a
fire. Always no matter what use boiling chips (porcelain) to promote even
boiling. Methanol superboils easily, as I have found :-(. Once most of the
methanol is removed, you will be left with a hundred ml or so of watery,
methanoly, green slime. If it weren't for the methanol and the bad taste,
this could be consumed at this point. In general, I would say that it may be
worth your while going to the next stage if you can manage it.
Add dilute hydrochloric acid. Sulfuric acid, etc. could be used instead, but
I like to use HCl and NaOH, because the product is NaCl, which is of no
consequence if it contaminates anything. HCl is not as oxidising as H2SO4.
The HCl should be less than 1M, but not weaker than 0.1M (pH 0-1). Add a few
times the reduced volume of liquid - e.g. take the stuff to 400 ml from 100
ml, etc. One good idea is to let the bulk cactus residue (post methanol)
dry, and then soak it for a few hours in the acid you are going to use to
add at this point. This will extract the last of the alkaloids.
Unfortunately, cactus being what it is, will swell enormously, and removing
the HCl is tricky. I have resorted to large quantities of HCl and a kind of
press to squeeze out the acid from the bulk residue. This acid should then
be filtered, and added to the methanol extract residue as above.
(optional) The stuff at this point will be a bit of a mess. Adding activated
charcoal and boiling gently for 10 minutes will help to congeal the
chlorophyll etc. which is gumming up the stuff. Do not add too much charcoal
- less than a gram should be plenty. Too much will absorb alkaloids. Don't
use burnt wood, burnt toast, etc - get the proper stuff from the local
pharmacist. Performing this step will make the next stages considerably
easier.
Filter the HCl extract. This will remove a proportion of the gunge. This
will be easier if charcoal was used. The more gunge that can be removed at
this stage, the better. Washing the residue with fresh HCl before
discarding, and adding this to the rest will ensure no loss of yield.
Carefully basify the HCl solution with NaOH. I tend to use around a 5M
solution for this, which is OK as long as you stir as it reacts. Take it
well above pH 7. You should get white clouds of alkaloids forming in the
solution, and the whole will become turbid as some of the acid soluble
components precipitate. Ammonia or KOH should work for this purpose as well.
I have had some difficulty with ammonia not being quite basic enough in
other systems.
Add dichloromethane (or chloroform); be generous with the quantities if
possible. Ideally, one would like to extract into CH2Cl2 3 times with equal
volumes, but the amount of solvents gets huge. Ether is not all that good
with mescaline extraction, I believe, even though it is easier to separate
from water. CH2Cl2 is handy because it has a very low boiling point. It is
at this point in the whole operation that the most care and patience is
necessary. A separating funnel is really a must - one could plausibly
separate the layers with a very tall thin jar and a syringe, but this would
be difficult. Ideally, the basic solution and the CH2Cl2 will separate into
2 nice layers, the lower one (organic) containing the alkaloids.
Unfortunately, while this is not difficult with most plants, it is very
difficult with cactus extracts because the cacti contain so much resinous
junk and natural surfactents (to retain water). The best way I have found to
separate the layers once you have shaken them together is to add plenty of
salt (NaCl) to the water/base layer. This is excellent for breaking the
emulsions which form. Be prepared to use large quantities of salt.
Separate dichloromethane layer from mixture and put aside. Repeat steps 9-10
a few times: once is insufficient, three is good, four is excessive. Combine
all the dichloromethane extracts together. This should be a slightly green
solution. It will contain a bit of water, most likely.
Backwash* the dichloromethane once with a solution of salt and NaOH
(dilute). This will clean up the last of the junk from the organic solution.
Separate the layers as before and discard all aqueous material.
Distill off the dichloromethane (or allow to escape to the atmosphere if you
are rich and don't like the ozone layer). I have found that once you are
down to maybe 20 ml of residue, the best option is to place the remainder in
a petri dish (or some flat dish you are going to store it on) and hitting it
with a hairdryer to remove any last CH2Cl2 and water. You should be left
with a small quantity of moderately pure alkaloids. This can be easily
consumed by dissolving in vodka, e.g., or should be stable for extended
periods if refrigerated, frozen, kept airtight and away from moisture. Do
not expect more than a 50% yield the first time you try this: theoretically
if everything is done properly, the yield should approach 100%, but this is
rarely the case.
NOTE
The initial extraction is very important. You only have as much alkaloid to
play with as you extract at this point. Similarly, the more gunk you extract
at this stage, the more you'll have to eliminate. Methanol is used because
it's not too polar or non-polar, and it penetrates cell walls and membranes
quite effectively. Acetone would be as effective, but it seems to pull much
more gunk out along with it, and for this reason should probably be avoided.
Also note that the better your mechanical mulching process is, the more
effective the extraction will be. Also, note that a hot solvent extraction
under reflux conditions, or using a soxhlet would be more effective, but
bear in mind that some alkaloids may decompose with heat - it's probably
worthwhile checking the physical characteristics of the alkaloid in question
in your handy Merck index or CRC handbook.
With respect to the degree of acidity and basicity necessary for the
extraction, this can only really be found by trial and error. Insufficient
difference from neutrality will cause insufficient separation, extremes of
pH (particulary too basic) may cause alkaloids to be degraded or other nasty
things to happen. Also note that other compounds present may act as buffers
- be sure to stir well, and measure the pH using indicator paper or
somesuch.
The final product is a free base. Usually it's unneccessary to go further
than this. Forming a salt can be tricky, and would also be wasteful. If
you're ingesting the product orally, then it'll salt adequately with the HCl
in your stomach. If you're concerned with oxidation by the air, well, use
your better judgement (are you really going to wait that long before eating
the stuff). Of course, if it's DMT and you're going to smoke it, forming the
salt is a waste of time.
*Backwashing- Once you've extracted the goodies into the solvent layer, you
attempt to remove any remaining non-alkaloid gunk that may have come along with
it. So you wash the extract with basified water, which forms another layer which
you discard. Jez describes this in the procedure. It's not always necessary, but
once you've got that far, it's usually not difficult to do (i.e. you've got the
layers to separate successfully once already)
 

GOD

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
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14 Jan 2006
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14 944
Please stop writing in such big / hard letters .

The description you have posted is not a full one , one needs lab equipment and hard to get and dangerous chemicals . People here need practicable methods that anyone can do at home .
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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2 454
spice a dit:
Maybe this is why they used ammonia as their base.

Obviously some kind of fats reside in these cacti, as the refs I read perform a de-fatting step.

swim= 'someone who isn't me'

We already spoke bout swim. But some shits I can't remember cause only americans use it! Have U ever heard someone from this side of pond telling "swim"??

Also, cacti doesn't contain fats! Talking bout Echinopsis. Maybe some kind of reaction with solvent and other chem included in extraction? Do not know, but know this-ECHINOPSIS-NO FATS.

PEACE
LIGHT
LOVE
BLESS
 

Goran.Hrsak

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30 Mar 2006
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2 454
I do not why but I have some crazy urgent to write something in big, bald, narrow letters. Shit if I know why? :wink:

And those chems aren't "hard to obtain" here. OK, maybe outside my country? But if U look what they are U will find them in local store with paints and hardware. Naptha is for instance zippo fluid. Who can tell such thing? Who can tell before U look little bit more round net and in hardware shops.
 

pax

Neurotransmetteur
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18 Sept 2008
Messages
68
Goran:

When I refer to fats I am mostly referring to any non-alkaloid plant material. . When working with fresh cactus you get quite a bit, and is a necessary step when preforming an a/b/a extraction. There are other methods using dried cactus and just a b/a extraction that work quite well and don't require a de-fat, but take much longer to complete. A traditional a/b/a extract takes less then 8 hours (not including evap time). A b/a takes well over a week, unless (as mentioned earlier) a soxhlet is available.
Just to give you an idea, I removed close to a 3/4 full mason jar of non-alkaloid plant material (not including the solvent used to separate ((that was recycled))). All that from 8 pounds of cacti, that had been strained.
 
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