Israël

[HappyMind]

What's your opinion about Israël? And then especially about their holocaust against the Palestinian people, with backup from the USA and (in)directly also from Europe.

This movie says it all:

Why Muslim extremism (see picture below)?

 

[st.bot.32]

I wish with all my heart that someday this part of the world will live in peace.

I have friends who have had relatives killed by suicide bombers. They can't even discuss this subject.

There is a fair amount of propaganda on both sides of the debate, and it is difficult to clearly see what is going on. The issue is also fairly partisan, if you criticize Israel's policies you will be labeled an anti-semite, if you criticize Palestine you are suddenly a warmonger. Both sides selectively ignore whatever facts would be critical to their cause. And meanwhile there are magnitudes of displaced Palestinians. Also the violence and massacres started LONG before the UN partition of Palestine. However just or unjust the cause for the partition may have been, there are millions of Jews living in Israel right now, this is the present reality that has to be dealt with, and violence and blame games will not solve the problem, only continue the cycle of hatred forever.

My opinion. The first sentence of this post.

 

[Brugmansia]

It's a perfect example of what religion does. Blood, terror, pain, hate, vanity.
I ain't gonna make much nuances about the conflict itself.

But no one in this world is the chosen one or supreme. One who thinks he is, won't serve anything within our evolution.

Our jackets ain't equal, but our existance and senses are. And let's make a harmonisation with our senses rather than claims in books or so called truths with no fundaments.

 

[magickmumu]

It's a perfect example of what religion does. Blood, terror, pain, hate, vanity.
I ain't gonna make much nuances about the conflict itself.

But no one in this world is the chosen one or supreme. One who thinks he is, won't serve anything within our evolution.

Our jackets ain't equal, but our existance and senses are. And let's make a harmonisation with our senses rather than claims in books or so called truths with no fundaments.

This conflict is not about religion, it's about politics and power.
The problem started not with religion, but with colonialism.
Look at the history of the middle east.
This conflict is not religious at it's core. This is a conflict about land.

 

[st.bot.32]

This conflict is not about religion, it's about politics and power.
The problem started not with religion, but with colonialism.
Look at the history of the middle east.
This conflict is not religious at it's core. This is a conflict about land.

I'm not too sure about that. A lot of conflict in that area has historically been religious (Crusades, etc), albeit fair enough, still over the land in the end. And to note, that the area is rife with religious artifacts and temples of incredible significance to both Islam and Judaism--part of which is Jerusalem, the Holy City.

Actually that part of the world has probably been constantly at war since time began, whether it was the Mesopotamian empires, the Israelites, the Romans, etc.

 

[magickmumu]

I am aware that the city or Jerusalem is important to both Judaisms, Islam and Christianity.
But this conflict has not only to do with the city of Jerusalem and it's religious significants.
This conflict is about lebensraum.
The Palestinians where being driven from there homeland, not because there where Muslims.
Israel needed more space, that's why the Palestinians where driven from there homeland.

Of course Religion plays a part in this conflict, but it,s to easy to blame only religion.
This conflict is very complex. There are a lot of players involved in this game.
To say: it's just all because religion, is a simplification of the conflict.

 

[Brugmansia]

This conflict is not about religion, it's about politics and power.
The problem started not with religion, but with colonialism.
Look at the history of the middle east.
This conflict is not religious at it's core. This is a conflict about land.

The complaining-wall is located in that land. Amoung many sancturies that are considered holy.

They go over dead bodies for evermore because they truly believe that for instance Yeshayahoe will return on earth once. And so on.

Those who believe such believes are worth so much lifes for evermore should see a doctor.

We're just people, the universe is created on levels of intelligence that are unobtainable for us humans. Let's make the best of it with each other, no matter where we live or are.

 

[Razor29]

you are funny guys really funny

i see no more wrong in own country then i did in others you dont live here and you dont know what happens up close

i wont bother trying to change your mind just know this we have a big ass movement on the rise here of acid trippers here and things are looking better then they used to

P.S palastiniens like raves and acid also just because we fight together dosent mean we dont DANCE TOGETHER!

 

[spice]

I like that message, razor29.....it would be the ultimate silencing of the detractors of psychedelics if they can aid in the eventual reconciliation....


History shows that Israel invaded Palestine in the 40's and seized the territory which would become known as Israel.....they derived their justification SOLELY FROM THE BIBLE and their belief that they were the 'chosen people of God'.

Politics and the related squabbles derived from politics are secondary to the main idea that Israel feels righteous about their actions and they derive this delusion from a book of delusions, half-lies, utter fabrications, and heavily edited and censored material which came to be known as the bible.

Much as fundamentalists here in America oppress people in many ways TO THIS DAY, jamming Christianity down the throats of schoolchildren despite scads of court-orders to cease and desist from such illegal activity.

My perception of Israel is of a very Hawkish, war-loving country which feels superior to all the others in the region, and is defiant in their religious pompousness.

They are perfect examples of people who completely misunderstand religion.


And perfect examples of why religion shouldn't be government.















:idea:

 

[Razor29]

well all in all i dont believe in god and i kind of hate Israel so i dont feel like defending it anymore lets just say that under all the crazy religious fanatics their are some normal and good people around but we are all trying to leave here so....

 

[Guest]

My perception of Israel is of a very Hawkish, war-loving country which feels superior to all the others in the region, and is defiant in their religious pompousness.

Sounds like the states

Wish it were different though.... all around the world.
Maybe it's like a test of faith for non religious, but spiritual people.
Please God, save us from your followers

 

[spice]

It is exactly like the states.....you know I know that.

 

[Guest]

I know you do , that's not what the emoticon was for.
But I guess it's a bit of a worldwide problem/crisis.
The Christian parties are turning the once so liberal Netherlands to a strong controlled state because "it would beter connect with European standards"
Bullshit, they just want "drug-use" gone because it's wrong, because the bible (they say) says it's wrong to use drugs, while most of them drink alcohol.

I have been gaining trust that everything will work out though.
Also I'm done with being pissed off all the time.
Humanity has great challanges to face, but all this wouldn't be happening if we all didn't allow this to happen, so I hope eventually enough faces will point in the same direction

 

[spice]

Sorry, my bad....I misinterpreted.


I'm not through being pissed off, though..... they deserve the anger of the people for screwing everything up so bad.

But you're right, everyone allowed that to happen......

 

[HappyMind]

i see no more wrong in own country then i did in others you dont live here and you dont know what happens up close

That's the power of a discussion forum, we can discuss everything.

P.S palastiniens like raves and acid also just because we fight together dosent mean we dont DANCE TOGETHER!

I guess that the people who kill each other in daily life doesn't stop that and party together in the weekends, right?

And I wasn't referring to a specific folk, but just about the shit what happens there.

 

[magickmumu]

Israel, South Africa, Australia, The US
In all these country's the native people where driven away because westerners need the land.
I see no difference. The wall build around Israel is just another form of apartheid or segregation.
These people can dance together, but something is not right if you need to build a wall.
The Berlin wall has fallen, but in Israel there putting up walls between people.
I don't think putting up walls, creating ghetto's or townships (as they call it in south-Africa) is a positive development.

What I learned in school about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is just pure bullshit propaganda.
In The Netherlands people say horrible things about Muslims. They talk of these people as if they are some kind of barbarians. But if you criticize Israel's politics they call you antisemitic.

Razor29 you're right I don't know how it is to live in Israel. But I know how it is to live over here in the Netherlands. It's not like we don't know what's going on.
I have studied history, so I know a thing or two about this conflict.

I am no anti-Semite. I don't hate Israelis. I just don't agree with Israels occupation of Palestinian land.

 

[Forkbender]

^ French Philosopher Alain Badiou voiced something similar in his essay 'The word 'Jew'', recently translated into Dutch. He defends that we should not see the word 'Jew' as something special, that we should not put taboos on using it. Very interesting argument, but widely held to be antisemitic (while in fact it tries to transcend the semitic/antisemitic distinction).

 

[HappyMind]

^ French Philosopher Alain Badiou voiced something similar in his essay 'The word 'Jew'', recently translated into Dutch. He defends that we should not see the word 'Jew' as something special, that we should not put taboos on using it. Very interesting argument, but widely held to be antisemitic (while in fact it tries to transcend the semitic/antisemitic distinction).

Taboos are made and kept in tact by the ones who have profit with that taboo...

 

[Forkbender]

I think everyone who considers something a taboo is profiting in one way or another from it. Taboos make you lazy and things don't need thinking about. I don't believe in some global elite that enforces taboos on everyone. Rather, the system works from below, group taboos enforce themselves by spreading, finally institutionalizing these taboos into social formations.

 

[tryptonaut]

I can't and really I don't want to comment on the politics in the Israel-Palestinian conflict, it's all so complicated and far beyond the religious fight over Jerusalem. However I think the religious aspects always heat up the fighting - that's why I don't like religion at all (I'm just reading "God is not great" by Christopher Hitchens, really good book about how religion poisons everything).

But well, what can I say - I can give you a little hope and inspiration for the future: I live in Germany, and my hometown has just elected a jewish mayor. And you know what? The only uncommon fact about his election was that he's a member of the Social Democratic party who haven't had a mayor in this town for decades (because this is the ultra-conservative south who usually never vote for social democrats). There's always room for change to the better, is it?