Insight into non-being from enthogens - stuns me!

[Proteus]

I was reading through old threads from here last night. Very interesting! Anyway, I found one where Etherbunny posted a link to an Erowid trip report in a thread from ages ago: The End of the Rabbit Hole - Beauty and Terror.

Although I shouldn't have found it surprising because I know in theory it can happen I was nevertheless shocked to read what the writer's 'ego-death' lead to; an insight that is pretty much identical to something that Zazen can reveal. Here is an excerpt (emphasis mine):-

"I became aware during this where the root of all of human neuroticism lies - the fear of non-being. I know this to be true at some deeply subconscious level even if I don't understand exactly why anymore the next day. It was as if, when each level was peeled away, some instinctual neurotic response to it bubbled forth from my ego, a denial, a refusal to believe.

...

I didn't even know it was possible to get so far out of the rabbit hole. I'd only ever gotten as far as the god-energy, the oneness. But this time, I saw beyond even that, into a vast nothingness that I can't even conceive of, a timeless place. I saw that even god, even the lifeforce, all of existence, is just a dream, a blip in the eye of an even larger pattern, an even infinitely larger pattern that I could only conceive of as Unbeing... and so it goes. It seemed that I was offered a glimpse to what lies at the heart of EVERYTHING, even life itself. And it was absolutely TERRIFYING."

If persistent & circumstances are right Zen practice should progress roughly like this: scattered mind, simple mind, one mind, no mind. Very few people practising Zen, especially lay people, will get to one mind and beyond to no mind. It requires repeatedly entering into Samadhi until the ego stops its struggling and more or less dissolves into nothingness. This guy, Xerkoth, what he's describing is the equivalent of a process that can take at the least several months of highly disciplined prolonged Zazen meditation, only his ego was de-layered & crushed with great force in a few hours! I know there are many reports of entheogens doing stuff like this but even still, wow, I'm impressed.

There is a downside I can see in realising no-mind like that. It was evidentially very uncomfortable and was fading by the next day (of course). The discomfort of dying (in that way) can be considerably softer (perhaps imperceptible) if spread over months of meditation and the shift in awareness stretched out for longer as repeated re-entry into Samadhi. Even still, a clear insight into non-being like that has real impact and is rare even amongst those who meditate often.

Wow, guys & gals, wow.

 

[Proteus]

I brought this up on a religious discussion forum today. With the exception of a Tibetan Buddhist who knew what I was getting at no one was having any of it.

Entheogens are cheating, apparently. Oh, and people don't fear non-being because it doesn't make sense, like the rational mind is the scope of human experience. * sigh *

 

[????????]

well yeah, they are cheats indeed, that's why we do them; we know there are precious insights to have in serious, regular, long-term meditation and the following of extreme paths such as the ascetic approach but we 21st century technohumans don't have time for all that, we want the crash course in enlightenment and we want it now. i share you enthusiasm about the trip report, i haven't experienced such ominous feelings like the tripper but i know what it is meant when referring to non-being and all that. it's like the counterpart to all our existence, The Endless Nothingness that balances the universe. i see how thinking about it can be terrifying.

 

[Brugmansia]

I don't agree that they are cheats, those who are expressing such a projection have been modificated through the visual orientated world, indeed, here you imagine a pyramid or a cop with keys behind a window, or a prominent figure wraped in a sheet.

I don't mean to slag religion or Buddhism, in fact I share many sober values with Buddhists, but the most intro perspective state of being on entheogens cannot be realised at all through the activation of a specific technique within the sober human mind itself. Buddha himself or a Grandmaster may have reached mystical states, but I believe no of their experiences corresponds with 6 grams of dried and frozen cubensis.

Without the use of psychoactives in human history, we've have never seen any artistic work, metaphors or other forms of expression which emphasizes the altered state of consciousness in where one loses the fear and oppressions and let's the steam-rollers going over oneself while returning to the fragile identityless and powerless being.

What they mean with cheating, is most likely breaking down the very ordered path of life for which they belief they get rewarded if they'll make it to the end through the program they have accepted to follow. Based on metaphors and the fictitious assumption of a God and miraculous places, or just a proper traditional way to live. Well, that's exactly the form of detention where a psychonaut intends to wake up from. To drink life with it's subjective and own pair of unique eyes.

The report from erowid implicates clearly the ego death of the traveller, it's that character inside our posture which needs to be kicked out of it's lucid slumbering through the defractalisation of it's control which regulates the conscious awareness. Once one him or herself has been through such a state, he or she may nourish and notice this given control as the most mystical wealth ever.

 

[BrainEater]

they are tools not cheats... for example a hammer is a cheat too?? or is it preferable to hit a nail into a piece of wood with your hands? if we have tools and do not use them is it not stupidity?

i have not gotten my head around this concept but i feel what he says and what you are so astonished about.... i have experienced it as well, in fact it's there all the time and i am too very much wondering how it's all working together like it really is.

i love how brugmansia said it i can't use the english language in such a precise yet still expressive way. respect!!


peace :weedman:

 

[????????]

saying they are cheats does not imply that they are not tools. when i say we cheat i'm thinking about how we are able to gain lots of insights that could've potentially taken much more time to coagulate, if at all.

 

[Affirmatory]

To me it's really not like a cheat. It's like you have two paths to follow, one easy which you reach your destination eventually if you stay on track, another where you must hike hard ground but will reach the peak quickly. When I hear 'cheat' I'm thinking video game codes and it's not that easy

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Although I shouldn't have found it surprising because I know in theory it can happen I was nevertheless shocked to read what the writer's 'ego-death' lead to; an insight that is pretty much identical to something that Zazen can reveal. Here is an excerpt (emphasis mine):-

"I became aware during this where the root of all of human neuroticism lies - the fear of non-being.

Some thoughts:

- Before we can say that the ego-death naturally led to this insight, we must first rule out that the person who wrote that report wasn't himself influenced by Buddhist or Zen philosophy. And as far as 'terrifying' is concerned, we would have to know what this person's birth was like.

- Fear of non-being is only natural for that which is either eternal, or has just come into being. It's not a fear that's dysfunctional or irrational in any psychological sense. Therefore I strongly disagree with the idea that it's at the root of human neuroticism.

 

[Proteus]

What I've noticed is that people who say psychoactives are cheating (and find that objectionable) have almost invariably never taken them. They've never taken them. And Brugmansia, given that is usually the case such people would not be able to understand where you are coming from. Breaking down the ordered path...for many the ordered path is all there is, its all the good, they can't imagine any benefit in it breaking down. If that is the suggestion, they are uncomfortable.

I also think people can feel belittled. Their own mystical/spiritual insights are treasured personal experiences. If they have put great time & effort into realising them, often confronting & overcoming difficult circumstances, the suggestion that someone could take psychadelics and realise similar or equivalent insights can be...well it can make them quite offended.

Personally I'm not going to lie about the power of these things to people who have not tried them but I try to put it in such a way that they are not offended. Otherwise their defences go up and there is no way through.

- Before we can say that the ego-death naturally led to this insight, we must first rule out that the person who wrote that report wasn't himself influenced by Buddhist or Zen philosophy. And as far as 'terrifying' is concerned, we would have to know what this person's birth was like.

I had not thought of that. Perhaps he was interpreting it, reading beliefs into it, because of coming across Buddhist or Zen philosophy.

But CM, I went through ego-death from meditation, or should I say ego-dissolving because it took long time, before I knew anything of Buddhism. All I knew was stuff from occult books I read. It was more than a year afterwards that a girl showed me some stuff about Zen and I realised I had experienced Kensho - the lightning strike "sudden enlightenment" of Zen. I then met a Zen monk and was shocked just how much he could relate to me.

I thought I'd gone through something unique. Not so. Not at all!

As to the root of neuroticism as fear of non-being, you might be right that this is wrong track. The reason I find the idea interesting is that after I returned to University from my years away meditating I found that all sorts of neurotic problems I had previously were simply gone. I'd changed so much and hadn't realised it. Life was just life; shit sometimes, great sometimes, but very simple and bright. I didn't know why this had changed but there were a lot of close friendships & lovers and I noticed in all of them there was some kind of existential tension that stopped them completely relaxing. Relaxing was easy to me so I was curious. Why not for them?

Over time it seemed to me that this tension was rooted in a need to exist, to be someone. People were afraid to let go and be nobody, afraid of death, afraid of not knowing who they were, etc.

The root of neuroticism as fear on non-being may not be right, but I'm almost certain that fear of non-being feeds neuroticism at the very least because people can't relax and just be nothing. They have to keep re-asserting their existence and that creates tension.

- Fear of non-being is only natural for that which is either eternal, or has just come into being. It's not a fear that's dysfunctional or irrational in any psychological sense. Therefore I strongly disagree with the idea that it's at the root of human neuroticism.

What if it only natural for just coming into being because later it becomes so entrenched in everything one does that we no longer notice its there? Unable to see its there we can do nothing. Can't deal with it, can't re-experience it, can't even see it, yet its there all the time and can feed neuroticism from deep down.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

What I've noticed is that people who say psychoactives are cheating (and find that objectionable) have almost invariably never taken them.

Well, in many spiritual groups you will find Westerners who did in fact do pot or even acid or shrooms, but then joined a spiritual group (Transcendental Meditation, Hare Krishna, Zen Buddhism etc.) where they were told or convinced themselves that drugs "only give a taste, only provide a short glimpse". I said these things myself for a couple of years, even though I had had ample experience with LSD and some other entheogens.

But CM, I went through ego-death from meditation, or should I say ego-dissolving because it took long time, before I knew anything of Buddhism.

Are you talking about the ego from psychology, or the ego from spiritual traditions? I don't think they are the same thing.

The latter tends to be associated with things we're embarrassed about or don't like in others: pride, arrogance, the inability to quiet the inner chatter, desire for name, fame, sex and worldly possessions.

The former has to do with things that make us neurotic, psychotic or schizophrenic and are a danger to our surroundings: irrational fears, consuming guilt, blind anger, murderous aggression, suicidal ideation, self-destructive behavior, sexual perversions etc.

Over time it seemed to me that this tension was rooted in a need to exist, to be someone. People were afraid to let go and be nobody, afraid of death, afraid of not knowing who they were, etc.

Yes, that's definitely causing some problems, for example the agitated state of the thrill seeker or even the average consumer in general. But I don't see how it could make a significant contribution to neuroticism.

 

[Mescaline]

My mother and me always used to have this ongoing debate whether pychedelics were bad/cheats (and thus not to be used because you won't 'get there' in the end) or just another 'path'.
So my mom, who only practiced meditation, but was kind of curious about psychedelics, though still afraid of using them, asked her swami, Swami Nityananda, about this subject specifically, when she was in India to visit him.
His answer or explanation was quite a (positive) surprise for me. According to him psychedelics are not good or bad, but he would not recommend anybody to use them, as they are very powerful. In his opinion not everybody might be ready to be confronted in such a strong and overwhelming way; the insights one gets might be 'too much' for the person, which can have bad consequences (e.g. mental illness, trauma), if not properly integrated. But still he also said that the experiences are not fake, and that true insights can be obtained through the use of psychedelics. He even went on to say that psychedelics are used sometimes to help people that are 'stuck' along their path in search of Truth. It's just a path with more risks (according to him).
In this sense, I can understand why religious/spiritual groups do not like the idea of encouraging use of psychedelics. They are just afraid of the dangers involved in a non-perfect set and settings, and at the same time they know that meditation is not dangerous at all.
My opinion is that this should be a personal choice, just like, I don't know.. bungee jumping. If you're willing to take that extra risk, you should be allowed to do it. Nobody should keep you from doing it, but neither force you to do it; they should just inform you of the possible dangers.

 

[Proteus]

Well, in many spiritual groups you will find Westerners who did in fact do pot or even acid or shrooms, but then joined a spiritual group (Transcendental Meditation, Hare Krishna, Zen Buddhism etc.) where they were told or convinced themselves that drugs "only give a taste, only provide a short glimpse". I said these things myself for a couple of years, even though I had had ample experience with LSD and some other entheogens.

* nods *

I've never thought that drugs can only give a taste, but I did underestimate psilocybin until I had the chance to take it every weekend or so for months & months.

Are you talking about the ego from psychology, or the ego from spiritual traditions? I don't think they are the same thing.

A bit of both. My personality was effectively wiped out. I felt like I might as well be dead to the world. I didn't know who I was, where I was, why I was and that kept eating away at me for months as well as the emptiness from meditation until there was nothing but silence when I meditated. All my thought & sensation was gone.

Yes, that's definitely causing some problems, for example the agitated state of the thrill seeker or even the average consumer in general. But I don't see how it could make a significant contribution to neuroticism.

Nor do I, really, but I notice that it seems to and it goes far beyond the mania of consumerism or thrill seeking. I've come across much theories about it but I came to these after I started thinking along these lines so their explanatory power may well be biased.

 

[Proteus]

In his opinion not everybody might be ready to be confronted in such a strong and overwhelming way; the insights one gets might be 'too much' for the person, which can have bad consequences (e.g. mental illness, trauma), if not properly integrated. But still he also said that the experiences are not fake, and that true insights can be obtained through the use of psychedelics

Aye. To paraphrase the Dalai Lama, "Its true that tantra is a short-cut to Buddhahood, but you have to be close to Buddhahood to make use of it!"

 

[BrainEater]

i agree with the fear of non being being a root of neuroticism. some people always need something to identify with, to know who they are, and to know that they are, be it their thoughts, their actions, their appearance, social status, posessions, etc. when they don't have something to cling to or identifiy with they get some sort of bipolar disorder or depression i don't know it's strange....


peace

 

[HeartCore]

Entheogens are cheating, apparently. Oh, and people don't fear non-being because it doesn't make sense, like the rational mind is the scope of human experience. * sigh *

They are not cheating. It's just that all or most of the spiritual traditions that claim to have the truth, in fact lost their sacrament long ago and what is left is at best something like Zen buddism or at worst something like extremist Christianity or Islam. You can't cheat with psychedelics although you can miss the point even for the first 20 years you take them which shows that besides being no cheat, it's also not a short road to wisdom/enlightenment.

Our culture believes the notion that enhanced mindstates facilitated by drugs are bad which really is a preposterous notion from a scientific, rational and experiential perspective. This idea entered our culture once our catholic forefathers started to beat/burn traditional plant use out of us and replaced the psychedelic sacrament(s) with a cracker and some fruit juice. Drugs have been 'bad' since the 1240's and psychedelic plants have been a part of the repression since the start of the inquisition.

Looking at traditional shamanistic cultures in South America tell us that we have been wrong all this time and that some drugs are simply the safest and most reliable way to induce certain mystical experiences with long lasting positive effects on people without the need of some nitwit who claims to talk to God and Jesus at the same time while practicing his meditiation routine which was channeled to him by Elvis Anyone not seeing that, clearly has a blank spot related to much of history related to drugs and religion.

edit: Btw there is a passage in early Buddist literature that talks about two or three ways to reach enlightenment. One of the ways is 'the use of herbs', which is never touched on by any of the modern buddist traditions. I'll look up exactly where/what and post it later.


Edit: Leary worded it quite well see pic

 

[maxfreakout]

I brought this up on a religious discussion forum today. With the exception of a Tibetan Buddhist who knew what I was getting at no one was having any of it.

Entheogens are cheating, apparently. Oh, and people don't fear non-being because it doesn't make sense, like the rational mind is the scope of human experience. * sigh *

which discussion forum was this? I would love to have a discussion about non-being and entheogens with religious people! :lol:

Heidegger said the cental problem for philosophy is how does something come from nothing?

entheogens are not 'cheats', they are the most efficient, safe and reliable 'tools' BY FAR for triggering intense transcendental states-of-consciousness that result in metaphysical/religious enlightenment.

To call them 'cheating' simply reflects the fact that they ACTUALLY WORK, by contrast, all other methods (like meditation and yoga) dont work with even 1/100 the efficacy, so it is more accurate to say that drug-free spirituality is a 'cheat' for people who want to forever avoid having mystical/religious experiences. Drug-free spiritualists never become enlightened, so they characterise the spiritual quest as a neverending 'pathway' that nobody (except a very small number of enlightened mystics) ever gets to the end of. Entheogens on the other hand reliably and repeatably reveal the ultimate END of the spiritual path (the state of timeless cosmic-unity/enlightenment) to anybody who dares to take them

 

[st.bot.32]

To call them 'cheating' simply reflects the fact that they ACTUALLY WORK

Nicely pointed out. Drug warriors first try to claim drugs are bad for you, then they claim the drugs are a cheat, contradicting themselves by implying that they actually do have beneficial effects. But it seems to me that those kind of people frequently employ logic that is incredibly malleable in nature.. to put it mildly

When it comes to cheating, assuming that you can reach a psychedelic-esque state without drugs, there are some real flaws in taking that comparison too far.

eg: Extreme example of reaching an altered state without drugs: You can isolate yourself away for months to years at a time. Antonin Gaudi's buildings look like a strong LSD trip in freeze frame--he was a monk who frequently starved himself and lived lengthy periods of isolation for his entire life. If that's what you want--fine.

On the other hand for people like me: I want to participate in society. I like being around people, learning about people. I like to occasionally set aside a weekend to have a life-enriching experience that I hope will help me become a happier and more empathetic human being. Sometimes I like to get up and observe/interact with society while in the psychedelic state..!

People tend to imply that different paths lead to the exact same phenomenon when they do not. Neither is necessarily better than the other. Different paths, different settings, different focus, very different results. And the drug doesn't tell you what to think or make of it, you still have to do all the thinking. There is no 'cheat'.

-edit- well said, Dr. Leary, well said!

 

[Brugmansia]

And the drug doesn't tell you what to think or make of it, you still have to do all the thinking. There is no 'cheat'.

+1.

 

[????????]

ok i'm not using the c word anymore, it is indeed inadequate.

 

[Proteus]

OK I have a mass of thoughts so this will be an overly long post I think.

which discussion forum was this? I would love to have a discussion about non-being and entheogens with religious people! :lol:

www.religiousforums.com

Although I should point out that since my post in this thread complaining about the 'cheating' idea the Psychonauts on that forum, active or just nostalgic for past times, have come out of the woodwork and pretty much dominated the debate.

And btw, the rules at that place restrict admitting to currently engaging in illegal activity or promoting them so you have to work around that. e.g. talking about entheogens in general rather than particular substances or referring to substances that are legal to buy & sell in your country of origin.

To call them 'cheating' simply reflects the fact that they ACTUALLY WORK, by contrast, all other methods (like meditation and yoga) dont work with even 1/100 the efficacy, so it is more accurate to say that drug-free spirituality is a 'cheat' for people who want to forever avoid having mystical/religious experiences.

Hmm, well they're certainly powerful and rapid. I'm wary of your suggestion because it seems to me that just about everyone using a particular system/path, drugs involved or not, has a tendency to see themselves as more enlightened than others using a different system/path because their way is the better or true way.

Also bare in mind that the religious aren't for the most part looking for big mystical/religious experiences to begin with (unless such experiences are placed well within their comfort zone).

Mostly people look to religion for safety from the big bad dark unknown, perhaps a reassuring kind of parental guidance that they miss from childhood, an escape from feelings of isolatation, loneliness, vulnerability, etc. by joining a community of people that will accept them as part of the group identity. Stuff like that.

People who aren't interested in religion for that and want to storm the gates of heaven through meditation/yoga will do that instead. They'll only pay as much heed to religion as is polite & helpful to that endeavour. Seriously. Put a half dedicated Taoist cultivator in a group of people who like to read the Tao Te Ching for its supposedly soothing philosophy and talk about what they saw on the TV recently and they cultivator will find the first exit available.

BTW I can think of reasons not to overlook meditation and yoga/qigong if you're a Psychonaut too:-

They can significantly improve the health of mind and body as well as build up strong subtle energy (qi/prana). If you're in good shape you can make your way through the doors of perception without getting so exhausted or roughed up.

The mental training of meditation helps in being able to relax, even if things are scary/difficult. The more relaxed and free of mental anguish you are the more psychadelics can flow.

Drug-free spiritualists never become enlightened, so they characterise the spiritual quest as a neverending 'pathway' that nobody (except a very small number of enlightened mystics) ever gets to the end of. Entheogens on the other hand reliably and repeatably reveal the ultimate END of the spiritual path (the state of timeless cosmic-unity/enlightenment) to anybody who dares to take them

Well...its true that enlightenment can be viewed as some unobtainable thing that's always out of reach. That's what religious types say because really they sort of want it to be like that. Mystical types may have a different perspective e.g. god/enlightenment is closer to you than your own skin - you just need to let go of clinging to certainty, habitual patterns of futile thought and whatnot to realise it. That sort of thing.

As for the neverending path I think you may be mixing up being able to hear the song of the infinite with being able to sing it.

I can sense that I'm one with the holographic multiverse, that every thought, movement and instant of consciousness is the entirety of existence moving me and me moving it. I can feel this, touch it, know it. That's great but what next?

The naturalest thing to do is to try to bring some of that back into the mundane world around you - your relationships with others, your way of life, your creative work, your appreciation of life in general. That is an endless process because creation & destruction are endless even if we feel one with the whole of eternity.