Greetings fellow Psychonauts!!

[tryptonaut]

Welcome!

All the religion really requires is that you try to make contact with your higher consciousness, review your purpose and do what your supposed to be doing in this dimension.

That sounds like a very good religion to me! I mean I don't need a religion to do that, but if that's the only thing your religion wants, then I'm in!

 

[McAllister]

Oh wow! I didn't expect this to develop into such a full blown discussion. Cool 8)

Although Crowley billed Thelema as a religion, I think Restin is right when he says it's more of a philosophy. I don't think of myself as a Thelemite, I think of myself as a Gnostic who uses thelemic magick as a tool to know myself.

Maybe it is a play on words, but where each word means something different to what it means to someone else, and every word is subject to a different interpretation depending on which individual is interpreting it. Variation and non-standardisation of individuals is a big part of Thelema, and every individual is left to find his own path to his or her higher consciousness. It's all good.

 

[druglessdouglas]

McAllister i agree. Gnosis. any system that works is valid

 

[GOD]

Do you have to put on crowleyesque carnival clothes on a bit like a black KKK uniform ?

Why dont you just lie on your back close your eyes empty your mind and look for the light within you ?

 

[tryptonaut]

Do you have to put on crowleyesque carnival clothes on a bit like a black KKK uniform ?

I think God don't like religion, does he?

 

[druglessdouglas]

its his religion

 

[Forkbender]

Fork , what about explaining to them what truth is ? Or why definitions arent definate ? Or the reliability of personal interpretations ?

Okay... I'll have a go at it, since I'm the

semantic genious

:

Let's start with the last question. Personal interpretations are reliable if and only if you agree with them. You are identifying with certain 'truths' you agree with, you can live with. By definition you are just a part of something bigger, therefore you cannot agree with all truths and therefore just seeing part of the bigger picture. The way you express yourself (be it in a religion, in a science, in philosophy, in poetry, etc.) is bound to that part of the Truth you identify with. This personal interpretation is therefore just reliable to you and those you agree with. Others will think you are deluded in some way or other.

That's where definitions come in. You may understand the person you do not agree with as using the same words, but these words can have different meanings to the both of you. This is obvious in a lot of discussions: they hinge on a definition of a word which can be taken in multiple ways. If the people in the discussion don't recognize this, the discussion will go nowhere, just repeating arguments that the other party won't accept. If they do recognize this, however, the need for a discussion ceases, as they will have to accept that the other party just has a different point of view that they cannot argue with. Sometimes the discussion will need to go through several of these semantic battles before reaching a conclusion, but in the end it will show unstubborn people that their definitions aren't the only way to understand reality.

Truth is multifaceted, you can argue about it, but that just limits your understanding of it, since you then condemn the other to untruth, while in 'reality' he just sees it from a different point of view. This may sound a bit abstract, but it is in fact very psychological: what you see as true depends on who you are, what you've lived through and what your expectations are. You see yourself in the world you perceive. It is you that is staring yourself in the face. Seeing through all this is like watching the world for the first time, with babyeyes, being reborn into the same body.

Coming back to the issue at hand, you can call thelemic magick a religion or a philosophy or a science or an art or bullshit, that doesn't matter. It's like throwing bricks at a pyramid. They all denote systems that try to define truth, as if it was something singular. They divide truth and want to conquer it, only conquering themselves and locking themselves up in their wannabe ivory tower. Even magick has become like that, because in essence any practice has the tendency to become hierarchical, because some people are more serious than others and will try to explain why it helps them and does them good. People don't listen to the message behind it, but take the explanation for truth, which is a division. So they are ruled by a garbled truth instead of just finding it on their own.

Hope this makes sense. If not, please state your view and we'll have a go at it. I'm very patient. :twisted:

 

[GOD]

But asides from that . Why go the long way round with the esoteric books , kinky uniforms and pseudo ceremonial carnival bullshit when all you have to do is to :-

"Lie on your back close your eyes empty your mind and look for the light within you ?"


But then again thats private and you cant pose and wank your ego in public with it .

 

[GOD]

Wow !!!! Your post wasnt there when i posted my last post . It must be a sort of hyperdimensional psychonuts black hole phenomenen . After reading your explenation i feel like BraiEater has eaten my brain . Or maybe i`m just anti-semantic ?

What about elaborating on your thesis from above and explaining it in a lot more detail ................

 

[Klaatu]

But asides from that . Why go the long way round with the esoteric books , kinky uniforms and pseudo ceremonial carnival bullshit when all you have to do is to :-

"Lie on your back close your eyes empty your mind and look for the light within you ?"


But then again thats private and you cant pose and wank your ego in public with it .

Why lie back and close your eyes when you can perform rituals and get much deeper? Why use psychedelics when sensory deprivation is THE RIGHT WAY?

We're talking about subjective experiences here. All YOU might have to do is lie on your back, close your eyes and look for the light within. If someone finds rituals and magic useful as tools, why shouldn't she use those tools? If the person feels better with religion in her life, then what's the big problem?

You know, being aggressive towards other people's ways of thinking and/or believing is something usually associated with fiercely fundamentalist religious people. The only one doing so in this topic so far has been you, GOD.

 

[Psychoid]

If someone finds rituals and magic useful as tools, why shouldn't she use those tools? If the person feels better with religion in her life, then what's the big problem?

If someone finds it useful to repeatedly hit himself in the leg with a long and sharp knife as a tool, why shouldn't he use this tool? If the person feels better with his life after this, then what's the big deal?

Don't know if you get my point, those kind of complex explanation are hard for me to translate in english, so I'm using a kind of methaphor...

Religions have good ideas in general, but sticking to a religion, following it to the letter and 100% believe in it is, in my opinion, either voluntarily blinding itself, or ignorance.

Just remember how religions have been the reason to so many murders, rapes and plunders

EDIT: Kllaatu... You claim that truth is subjective then say that you have the only truth... I agree with god you keep contradicting yourself and make yourself look like an idiot. Please think before you talk/write.

If there is something such as Truth, for sure you will not find it outside of yourself, and especially not by doing rituals like dressing like a kangaroo-wolf and then climbing in trees to draw a sun fucking with the moon at the 1012th branch

 

[GOD]

Bigot . Leran to read and dont twist what i say , again . Maybe it would help you if you read your own posts before you post them . If you new the slightest thing about what you were talking about you wouldnt talk so much shit . You contradict yourself in your blindness .

"Why lie back and close your eyes when you can perform rituals and get much deeper? "

There is no deeper . Study a bit about religeon , spirituality and philosophy before you say something so ignorant again . You have never seen the white light so how can you judge if anything is deeper .

"Why use psychedelics when sensory deprivation is THE RIGHT WAY?" - "We're talking about subjective experiences here."

Clown . Those two sentances contradict eachother . And i never said anything about psychedelics . You did . And who are you to tell anyone that your way is the right way . The easyest way is to do nothing , and what i say IS sensory deprivation . You turn your senses off and get to the light . The light thats recognised throughout the ages from culture to culture as being the highest spiritual experience = seeing the white light = transendence = being iluminated .

"If someone finds rituals and magic useful as tools, why shouldn't she use those tools?"

Who said they shouldnt . I didnt . Again you are projecting your crippled little ego on me again .

"If the person feels better with religion in her life, then what's the big problem? "

The only problem is you and your blindness . I only sugested an alternative to what others had said .

"You know, being aggressive towards other people's ways of thinking and/or believing is something usually associated with fiercely fundamentalist religious people. The only one doing so in this topic so far has been you,"

Hypocrit . You are the only one who has been agressive . You are the only one who has made acusations .

 

[McAllister]

But asides from that . Why go the long way round with the esoteric books , kinky uniforms and pseudo ceremonial carnival bullshit when all you have to do is to :-

"Lie on your back close your eyes empty your mind and look for the light within you ?"

If lying on your back etc. works for you then by all means use it. That's the method I use when I'm on the shrooms. I see the inner light of the Kether plus all the colours of the Queen Scale of the Kaballah in order. The effect is just awesome.

Magickal ritual works for me because posing in the god forms and speaking the words sometimes really makes me feel high and that that I've truly become the vessel of my higher conscious for a short while.

But the path to the higher conscious is an individual one, and the individual should use whichever method works best for them.

 

[Forkbender]

Wow !!!! Your post wasnt there when i posted my last post . It must be a sort of hyperdimensional psychonuts black hole phenomenen . After reading your explenation i feel like BraiEater has eaten my brain . Or maybe i`m just anti-semantic ?

What about elaborating on your thesis from above and explaining it in a lot more detail ................

'anti-semantic' - that's a good one.

I don't feel like elaborating, you can find out for yourself by lying on your back and closing your eyes.

 

[GOD]

" I see the inner light of the Kether plus all the colours of the Queen Scale of the Kaballah in order."

That isnt the white light . It isnt transendence . It isnt illumination . Its seeing lights in your head . The inner light isnt "the inner light of the Kether" its you .

"the colours of the Queen Scale of the Kaballah"

They havent been the same since Freddy died .

Ilumination is about ego death , dropping your ego , getting away from the ego games your talking about , becoming pure consciousness , pure awareness , getting away from ilusion , not swimming in it .

Have fun playing .

 

[BrainEater]

GOD's religion is ranting about other people who rant about him :mrgreen:

but i must say he does his job quite well....


peace :weedman:

 

[psm]

I don´t understand what the last two posts want to say.

They define religion as it is interpreted by the masses...


There is no truth, since we are bound to be humans. What- and however we interpret things, we do it by rules. The basic rules lie in the fact, that we are humans and thus bound to a certain reality. No matter how much we transcend this reality, we will only come up with the next set of rules.
I am emulating 3D for quiet a while now and it is very hard to do. And still, I am not an inch closer to the real universal truth, because it is still bound to rules and since its only an emulation of 3D thinking, it is not true in itself.

Religion sells truth and defines truth as absolute. Even such religions as thelmic. By constituting the truth, that everything is permitted and nothing is true, truth is - bound by human interpretation - defined. Thus it is not true.

The best way to describe truth, as close as humans will ever come is:

The following sentence is a lie.
The previous sentence is true.

This is the only way to define truth, because it states both versions as true and none of them, thus transcending definition by defining.


Any form of idea or philosophy that becomes constitutional - by defining a certain form of truth - is per se a religion. Closing the window of freedom, removing the possibility of transcending mind, body, soul and truth. And so it becomes a dead end for spiritualism, which is in essence the search of connecting oneself to the universal truth.

Psychonautics is a form of philosophical search for the inner self to be able to transcend it. Coming closer to the universal truth by doing so. It is the way of self exploration as it has been around shamans and zen philosophers for millennia. Only by overcoming the bound of being human we can transcend being.

But then again, nothing of the above has to be true...

 

[psm]

I think God don't like religion, does he?

It sure doesn't. It contradicts god in all its glory...



I think that Crowley, by calling Thelma "religion" he did it with his typical sense of humor and sarcasm. Crowley himself explored all kinds of religion and despised them. Calling it religion should keep the "followers" at a skeptic level towards their own believe.
One of the things Crowley always propagated was a healthy sense of doubt. Next to love and hope, it is the essential key to overcome one owns ego and be able to redefine (human) truth when necessary.

 

[psm]

But asides from that . Why go the long way round with the esoteric books , kinky uniforms and pseudo ceremonial carnival bullshit

Ritualism is actually a very important thing. for many reasons.

- It defines you as an interacting entity
- It defines a world around you
- It creates anchors and thus easing to come back to the state you want to achieve with the ritual
- It builds a common ground if there are more then one involved
- It disguises meaning and purpose to outsiders
- It is fun to mess with the noobs by making the do a whole load of shit to "initiate"


"Lying down, closing your eyes and letting go" in itself can be a ceremony already...

We, as humans, do thing ceremonial all the time. Just watch yourself when making coffee or tea. When you take a shower. When you have sex. All these thing follow a certain procedure usually and thus are ceremonies. And there is nothing wrong with it. It helps you to do, what you do, more confident and secure...

 

[druglessdouglas]

god- i dont think you understand Magick at all