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General question regarding Ego Death

Lloupish

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4 Juil 2011
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I've been reading up on Ego Death recently, how it causes people to become "aware" of the universe being one and one being the universe, but anything beyond that I've little understanding regarding how people feel towards it. Some people claim it to be enlightening, some people claim it to be terrifying and immediately regret it all.

I'm curious towards whether those on here who've felt it feel that the new perspective is still with them, or whether they've slipped back into their "normal" mindset after the experience.

As for myself, I'm WAY too inexperienced to be expecting to take enough of anything to cause it, and also believe that it's not something that should ever be aimed for; rather something that'll happen on its own when I'm ready. ...Or maybe not ready.
 

ophiuchus

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I'm curious towards whether those on here who've felt it feel that the new perspective is still with them, or whether they've slipped back into their "normal" mindset after the experience.

the new perspective can definitely last much longer than the "ego death" itself

I've little understanding regarding how people feel towards it. Some people claim it to be enlightening, some people claim it to be terrifying and immediately regret it all.

looks like a solid understanding to me
 

darkwolfunseen

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Personally, I feel like it stays with you for a prolonged period of time (the way of thinking, not the ego death as was pointed earlier), but deep within. The hectic day to day tend to drown out the constant wave. Still, the experience, if powerful enough, is something you can meditate much easier into, because you vaguely know what you're looking for.

As for the terms, negative or positive, well, it's like people themselves, the experience is born neutral, and depending on set and setting (along with a dash of murphy's law) creates the charge.
 

maxfreakout

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You will find all the information you need about ego death and transcendence/enlightenment at http://www.egodeath.com, Michael Hoffman's cybernetic theory of ego death.....

Lloupish a dit:
I've been reading up on Ego Death recently, how it causes people to become "aware" of the universe being one and one being the universe, but anything beyond that I've little understanding regarding how people feel towards it. Some people claim it to be enlightening, some people claim it to be terrifying and immediately regret it all.

it can be both terrifying and enlightening, these are certainly not mutually contradictory, in fact the reason that it is so deeply transformaive is precisely BECAUSE it is so unbelievably terrifying, the mind is transformed through intense fear, the ego death experience taps into every person's innate, hardwired fear of (and aversion to) dying. The death-trip itself is typically a deeply terrifying, shattering experience, but it comes to an end just as all drug-trips do, and afterwards it leaves the mind permanently transformed into a new 'enlightened' configuration which lasts forever

Lloupish a dit:
I'm curious towards whether those on here who've felt it feel that the new perspective is still with them, or whether they've slipped back into their "normal" mindset after the experience.

In an average trip which is not full blown ego death, the person experiences transcendent metaphysical insights (ie a radically new perspective on things) which are then forgotten, moreorless completely, after the trip finishes.

But ego death is different from a normal trip, precisely because the insights are NOT forgotten, they are fullly remembered even after the trip ends and the ordinary state of consciousness is resumed, and this 'remembering' constititues a radical and permanent shift in understanding which lasts for the rest of the person's life. After a successfully integrated ego death trip, the person is now 'enlightened' about the relationship between themselves and the rest of the universe

Ken Wilber makes a distinction between 'states and stages' in his books which is highly useful for understanding this point, - there are STATES (of consciousness), and STAGES (of psychospiritual development). Normally, when you take a psychedelic drug, you will experience a temporary transformation in your state of consciousness, however sometimes it is possible to take a drug which temporarily changes your state of consciousness, AND permanently transforms your entire mental worldmodel (ie your internal framework of beliefs and assumptions) - this is a shift to a new 'stage' of mental development. And that is what ego death is, it is a temporary change in state (from not-tripping to trippping, then back again) which results in permanent change in stage (from unenlightened to enlightened, or from ego-configuration to transcendent-configuration).


Lloupish a dit:
As for myself, I'm WAY too inexperienced to be expecting to take enough of anything to cause it, and also believe that it's not something that should ever be aimed for; rather something that'll happen on its own when I'm ready. ...Or maybe not ready.

if it is meant to happen to you, it will happen to you, i dont think it is really a case of taking high doses of psychedelic drugs, rather, it is about gaining an intimate familiarity with the psychedelic state of consciousness, and using your intellect to realise what are the (metaphysical) implications of that experience
 

IJesusChrist

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oh my god.
 

ararat

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sometimes I'm not sure if it wouldn't just be better to ban max, the untruth this man is spreading sounds almost dangerous.

lloupish, don't take him too seriously. the mind is not transformed through intense fear. it is quite logical: all fear comes from the ego, in egodeath there is no ego. so egodeath cannot be terrifying - the onset, however, can and probably will be.
you will not be enlightened afterwards, but it seems to me that you get a taste of it. it was the single most beautiful thing that happened to me, I daresay that it changed me quite a lot, but I can't say for sure because I'd have to live again without tripping on that day to know :D
 

Lloupish

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heh, it's sounding as if the lot of you make sense... maybe in their own ways. I'm looking forward to when I'll be able to dedicate more time to experimentation, 'n' perhaps I'll end up finding out for myself ^^
 

maxfreakout

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Dont trust anything i say just do a bit of reading, - there are hundreds of detailed trip reports of people's entheogenic ego death/rebirth experiences on the internet which clearly illustrate what 'ego death' means and involves, especially in erowid's trip report vaults. It is very useful practice to read lots of other people's trip reports if you are interested in ego death, then it becomes clear that many trippers experience exactly the same thing, - ie mentally 'dying' in the psychedelic state of consciousness, then being spiritually 'reborn' afterwards. Stanislav Grof has written several books about ego death/rebirth, he is another modern authority on the subject (having administered LSD to thousands of people), so read one of his books that will give you a clear picture of what ego death is, he compares the psychedelic ego death experience to a baby's experience at its own birth

This is a particularly well-written ego death trip report:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409

you can see all of the main 'themes' of ego death from that report, so it serves as a useful template for the experience. In particular, that report demonstrates how thinking/believing you have died in the altered state is not at all easy, or blissful
 

IJesusChrist

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The problem with anything pertaining to ego death is it is completely subjective, and people are always trying to objectify it.

Just go with the flow.
 

Lloupish

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Oh, no worries, I've learnt my lesson regarding psychedelics and how aiming for something is generally a major mistake... I have no intention of "going for it" or anything like that, and as much as I was TERRIFIED of what was happening two year ago, I... can't say i'm worse off 'cos of it now.

I appreciate the advice from all of you, though, thank you.
 

Guenn Eona Nimue

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IJesususChrist wrote "The problem with anything pertaining to ego death is it is completely subjective, and people are always trying to objectify it." I think that is probably the most accurate assessment of the situation that you can expect. I also agree with maxfreakout when he says that the writings of Stanislav Grof might be a good place for you to start. I would highly recommend "Beyond The Brain", "Realms Of Human Unconsciousnes, LSD Psychotherapy" and "The Adventure Of Self Discovery" (which I contributed to when he was writing it starting in 1986). My only advice to you would be to take it all in very slowly and carefully (whatever your drug of choice is) as you will be essentially "tinkering" with your own mind and spirit during this exploration. It can be a marvelous awakening if you go about it properly, and the benefits can last a lifetime.

Wishing you well, Guenn Eona Nimue
 

maxfreakout

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Allusion a dit:
"all structures are unstable"


Ego is essentially a 'mental structure', it normally retains its stability whilst in the ordinary state of consciousness, but in the psychedelic state of consciousness, it has the potential to go unstable, sometimes radically so (ego can fail catastrophically to remain stable). Altered-state egoic instability is typically marked by 'thought-loops', ie the mind falls into zany feedback-loops which rapidly become highly unstable and dangerous
 

Light

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^I'm sorry, but Allusion said all structures are unstable, and you say the ego is only unstable in the 'psychedelic state'. I think what Allusion is alluding to is the buddhist notion of impermanence, which can teach a person that mentally reacting to sensations or thoughts and emotions will only multiply the suffering associated with it. Recognizing impermanence will help you to remain equanimous towards these phenomena.

My ego isn't stable all through the day. At some points I am in a flow, not seeing myself as a separate entity but just doing what needs to be done, while at other times I protect myself from others and retreat into the illusory safety of my own ego. I therefore wouldn't say that ego is stable in the normal waking state.
 

maxfreakout

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Light a dit:
Allusion said all structures are unstable, and you say the ego is only unstable in the 'psychedelic state'.

Yes if you think of ego as the basic sense/feeling/experience of 'being a person', then it is an absolute constant during ordinary waking consciousness (ie almost all of the time), you are ALWAYS yourself, except when you are tripping hard and your basic sense of stable self-identity entirely dissolves (ego death).

Ego is the part of you that maintains permanent identity as you move forwards through time, you always have a stable sense of self-identity, you believe that you are 'the same person' as you were 5 minutes ago - that is the basic essence of ego. For example, the fact that you have a name for yourself is an obvious indication that an ego is present, your name is permanent, it never changes throughout your life, because you stay permanently the 'same person' - ie you retain your identity across time

EVERYTHING else about you changes, all the time. For example your health, your age, your weight, your mood, your experience etc etc etc is constantly changing, - the ONLY thing about you that doesnt ever change is your ego ie your identity, - you are permanently the 'same person', with the same name (the same ego). Ego is the permanence of our personal identity, it holds together the overall 'person' across different moments of time

all of your qualities are variables, in constant flux, except for ONE single quality = your identity (ego), which is utterly permanent and unchanging

Light a dit:
I think what Allusion is alluding to is the buddhist notion of impermanence

The buddhist concept of impermanence is first and foremost intended to explain the metaphysical insights that are revealed during the course of psychedelic ego death and rebirth/transcendence. This is true of all buddhist philosophy, - at the very foundation of all of buddhism, is the enlightenment experience of the Buddha under the Bodhi tree, ie a psychedelic-plant induced ego death/rebirth experience. Everything that follows, ie all of canonical buddhism, is ultimately a reaction to the ego death/enlightenment experience which the Buddha underwent when he sat under the tree.

The unenlightened mind is the mind which fully believes in ego, ie the mind that believes in the permanence of its own identity, the mind which fully identifies itself with the permanent ego and cant see beyond this identification. The enlightened mind has had its belief in egoic permanence shattered by the experience of ego-disintegration in the psychedelic state of consciousness, this is the esoteric meaning of the 'impermanence' principle in buddhism.

it's a contrast between 2 different worldmodels, the unenlightened, egoic belief in permanence, versus the enlightened, transcendent recognition of impermanence. The ordinary state of consciousness is strongly misleading, it creates a strong impression that ego is real (ie that identity is permanent), the psychedelic experience breaks through this illusion and reveals the transcendent truth of impermanence. The Buddhist concept of 'enlightenment' describes the state of the mind after it has seen through the illusion of permanent ego-identity.

Light a dit:
My ego isn't stable all through the day. At some points I am in a flow, not seeing myself as a separate entity but just doing what needs to be done, while at other times I protect myself from others and retreat into the illusory safety of my own ego. I therefore wouldn't say that ego is stable in the normal waking state.

you are always yourself, at all times of the day, if someone stopped you and asked you 'who are you?' you would always reply 'I am Light'. The identification which your mind is making to a person named 'Light' is entirely stable and reliable during the ordinary state of consciousness, it is highly unlikely that you would forget who you are (ie forget your name), or think that you were someone else, when you are in the ordinary state of consciousness, it takes powerful entheogenic drugs to make you do that (Salvia divinorum for example)
 

Light

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Wow. A wall of text.

Buddhism doesn't talk about the state of enlightenment only, it talks about how to get there. The notion of impermanence is important because you can experience it during meditation, even if you do not melt together with the universe into one blob.

When I am in my normal waking state, I know I am Light, of course. This knowledge is definitely more at hand when I am in this state. But that doesn't mean this knowledge is present all the time. When it doesn't occur to 'me' to ask myself this question or to even think, then who am I?

All I'm saying is that the non-egoic state is WAAAAAAAAY more accessible than most people seem to think.
 

maxfreakout

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Light a dit:
All I'm saying is that the non-egoic state is WAAAAAAAAY more accessible than most people seem to think.


it depends what you mean by 'non-egoic state', if you mean 'ego death' (ie total dissolution of cognitive structures leading to radical worldmodel revision, a life-changing transcendent experience), that can be practically accessed by taking entheogens. That experience is entirely different from anything that ever happens in the ordinary state of consciousness, and it is highly unlikely to happen without the ingestion of entheogens.
 

avemaria

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maxfreakout a dit:
This is a particularly well-written ego death trip report:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=6409


I can definitely relate to this trip report! I had an experience very similar to that 2 years ago, i didnt think of it as an 'ego death' or whatever at the time, but it certainly left a very strong lasting impression on me. I felt as if the whole universe was melting, including myself, and that i would be stuck forever inside a cavern of melted universe-fragments. That was definitely the most terrifying experience of my whole life, and it made me swear off of drugs for some time afterwards, but also it was tremendously rewarding and i am glad now that i did it, it taught me how valuable life is :D
 

Lloupish

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Wow, there are so many interesting people on here... I wanna talk to all of your for days on end without care for work or the like. It's funny how a terrifying experience can help to make oneself feel far more optimistic after time.
 
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