General question regarding Ego Death

[maxfreakout]

Of course there is a difference between meditation and LSD. That doesn't mean that they are not both transformative in a way.

LSD gives everybody who uses it immediate, repeatable, reliable, safe, controllable (etc.) access to mindblowing psychedelic altered states of consciousness, meditation doesnt do this, that is all i am saying

what is the result of proper use of psychedelics? I'd say wisdom.

the *immediate* result of ingesting psychedelic plants and chemicals is a psychedelic trip, many people report acquiring deep (transcendental) metaphysical wisdom/insights from psychedelic trips, but what comes first and foremost is the trip itself. Psychedelic drugs make you trip, meditation does not make you trip, so any 'wisdom' acquired from meditating is not going to be the same 'wisdom' that people acquire when they are tripping on drugs (ie mystical altered state insights)

Psychedelic experiences reveal specific insights about the nature of 'self' and its relationship to time and to the world

but there are many roads to wisdom.

There is only one 'road' to psychedelic wisdom (ie the experiential insights that derive from the phenomenological content of psychedelic experiences), you need to know the psychedelic experience firsthand in order to gain anything from it, and the only way to come to know the experience firsthand, is by taking entheogens

 

[Light]

You're an insane extremist that is a danger to everybody who would like to see an end to the war on drugs. I will stop addressing you to give you a stage on which you spread your misinformation.

All in good fun, of course.

 

[zezt]

It helps to know the difference between ego death as Goddess spirituality understands it and how the patriarchy understands it. For example, I am sure you have heard that President W Bush belongs to the Skull and Bones secret society, as did Bush senior and his gandfather, and as did his political 'opponent' John Kerry. In thie rinitiation they also are supposed to have an 'ego death'. MOSt cults also have so-called ego deaths, but what all this means is that they lose all their humanity (though I doubt the Bush family ever had any) and conform to a group-think, and rather than lose ego they adopt MONSTROUS egoistic power which is self destructive and affects us all:

"“This was the pattern [ie of the takeover of Goddess peoples by the sun cults]: The sun hero who vanquished “evil” in the form of monster serpents or dragons was originally a moon hero…and as such, the son/lover of the great Goddess. In moon mysteries, he overcame death in ecstatic self-transcendence experiencing luminous oneness with her. But when he becomes the patriarchal sun hero, he kills the Mother Goddess in Her dark underworld-serpent aspect. Instead of transcending his ego, he “transcends” the whole world, cosmic union giving way to worldly conquest and destruction of the sources of life. He destroys life in the name of “conquering death”. Jungian psychoanalysts interpret this process as the liberation of the individual ego---the male ego, of course---from the “forces of darkness” and “the unconscious”, i.e., the mother. The hero’s action in rescuing the “maiden” from the dragon symbolizes, Jung says, the freezing of his own anima—his essential self—from the “devouring” aspect of the mother. This almost suggests that woman, in herself, is merely a projection of the male anima; and indeed that’s what women are in most patriarchal systems. Jungians have never shown an awareness of the politics of mythology---or of mythology as the history of the preliterate real world. The sun hero is doing more than “liberating his ego” from the mother; he is “liberating” his being from responsibility to the being of the world. He liberates himself by arrogantly and recklessly destroying the interconnecting webwork of which he is a part---and then the “tragic hero” is surprised when he looks around himself, and sees nothing but wasteland and death…The sun hero slashes through the timeless web of interconnecting life energy and lays it all waste, in order to enjoy swift satisfaction, fame, and conquest. Conquest of what? Of the fact that life is paradox: (1) the fact that psychic powers are deeply hidden and dangerous, needing to be guarded by wisdom (the serpent guarding the treasure), and (2) the fact that their release can cause destruction as easily as integration. The sun hero wars against the double-edged reality of the cosmic process, slashing through paradox, denying cyclic recurrence and the serpent wisdom that comes with it, refusing to believe that his ego must die before the true magic power can be safely revealed. From Marduk to Superman, he is a little boy warring against the subtle (serpentine) nature of life: demanding it be made neat, simplistic, logical, unambiguous, designed as a flat stage for his triumph---and nothing more.
In The Second Sex Simone de Beauvoir catalogues men’s hatred and fear of woman because she presents him with the ambiguities with life and death, his classic response to these ambiguities is denial and conquest.
" The Great Cosmic Mother: Rediscovering the Religion of the Earth, barbara Mor, and Monica Sjoo (page 255-256)

 

[zezt]

hah this just says it ALL!

 

[IJesusChrist]

now i get it.

 

[Crimzen]

thats gold

 

[avemaria]

There is only one 'road' to psychedelic wisdom (ie the experiential insights that derive from the phenomenological content of psychedelic experiences), you need to know the psychedelic experience firsthand in order to gain anything from it, and the only way to come to know the experience firsthand, is by taking entheogens

you must be joking, you think the only way to have psychedelic experiences is taking drugs? That is easy to disprove, the human brain makes DMT in the first place, so if there is DMT already in the brain then it must at least be possible to have a DMT trip without taking drugs. And i think even Ken Wilber (who you yourself mentioned earlier in the thread) has had psychedelic experiences and he didnt take drugs

 

[IJesusChrist]

I guess, when you get down to it - all experience is psychodelic.

 

[maxfreakout]

you must be joking, you think the only way to have psychedelic experiences is taking drugs? That is easy to disprove, the human brain makes DMT in the first place, so if there is DMT already in the brain then it must at least be possible to have a DMT trip without taking drugs. And i think even Ken Wilber (who you yourself mentioned earlier in the thread) has had psychedelic experiences and he didnt take drugs

Psychedelic drugs are the only ergonomic tools for triggering intense psychedelic experiences reliably, controllably 'on-tap'

you may have DMT in your brain all the time, but you cant 'use' it to have a dmt trip, to do that you need to ingest DMt from outside

Also Ken Wilber may have had these kinds of experiences without drugs, but he cant tell his audience how they can have them for themselves without drugs, that makes him a notably second-rate, mediocre spritual teacher. The only true spiritual teachers are the ones who use drugs themselves, and who are honest to their audiences about what the drugs do and what relevance they have for spiritual-seekers (another way to put this, is to say that the very highest spiritual teachers are actually the drugs themselves, the 'plant teachers')

 

[ophiuchus]

...if it has any 'value', it lies in the fact that the enlightened mind of an ego-death initiate no longer believes in a falsehood (ie the falsehood that ego is fully, literally 'real'), and it is 'better' to know the truth, rather than believing in falsehoods...

without redefining again what either ego death or psychedelia mean, and also avoiding explaining the probability of have mystical experiences via different routes and so taking another direction entirely, would you mind expounding upon this statement that i highlighted? i am more interested in your perspective in what you imply with those words, in regards to the "structure" of the ego and so forth. thanks ahead of time.

(edited the 25th, 10am est)

 

[avemaria]

Psychedelic drugs are the only ergonomic tools for triggering intense psychedelic experiences reliably, controllably 'on-tap'

you may have DMT in your brain all the time, but you cant 'use' it to have a dmt trip, to do that you need to ingest DMt from outside

Also Ken Wilber may have had these kinds of experiences without drugs, but he cant tell his audience how they can have them for themselves without drugs, that makes him a notably second-rate, mediocre spritual teacher. The only true spiritual teachers are the ones who use drugs themselves, and who are honest to their audiences about what the drugs do and what relevance they have for spiritual-seekers (another way to put this, is to say that the very highest spiritual teachers are actually the drugs themselves, the 'plant teachers')

Ah thankyou maxfreakout for clearing that up i think i understand what you are saying, but i don't get what is so special about these 'psychedelic' experiences which means you have to single out drugs the way you seem to be doing, what exactly do these experiences offer us that other kinds of experiences dont have?

 

[maxfreakout]

avoiding explaining the probability of have mystical experiences via different routes

It is crucial to make the point about the power of entheogens compared to the sheer weakness of all drug-free methods absolutely clear and explicit, in order to *isolate* that special effect of entheogens for the purpose of analysis and model building, - ie what is it, specifically and concretely, that entheogens do? - they trigger temporary states of mind-manifestation. By isolating the standard effect of entheogens in this way, it is then possible to understand why entheogens are so strongly associated with these other interesting phenomena such as ego death, rebirth, enlightenment, profound transformation, religious/mystical/spiritual experiences, alien abductions, religious conversion, transcendence, nirvana etc etc etc. All of these phenomena can be explained in terms of mind-manifestating experiences/cognitive dissociation/psychedelic tripping. LSD causes ego death and transcendent rebirth BECAUSE it causes the mind (psyche) to become temporarily manifested (delic), people often take LSD and experience utterly stupedously intense, magical mindbending experiences which leave their outlook on life permanently transformed.

would you mind expounding upon this statement that i highlighted? i am more interested in your perspective in what you imply with those words, in regards to the "structure" of the ego and so forth. thanks ahead of time.

The idea that ego (or 'self') is not fully, literally real is the central, essential zen insight, it is the insight that is timelessly revealed to the Buddha during his enlightenment experience under the Bodhi tree.

The psychedelic experiences reveals that ALL empirical phenomena (everything which you take to be 'reality') are purely representational and purely mental (and therefore in a certain sense, purely unreal), including, crucially, the ego. Ego is revealed to be just a mental construct, much like a computer which is programmed to believe that it is a real person. Ego (or 'self') is the thing that you identify with whilst you are in the ordinary state of consciousness, the thing of which you would say "this is me, myself", the thing which possesses your name. The username 'allusion' is an arrow, pointing to a thing, and that thing is you, the ego/self named 'allusion'.

The unenlightened mind in the ordinary state of consciousness believes that this thing called 'myself/me' is substantially, literally real, and more importantly it fully *identifies* with it, and it fully believes in this identification. But because ego is actually/ultimately unreal, the unenlightened mind is stuck in a web of delusions, lies and mistakes.

The psychedelic experience, when it is fully mapped out and understood, leads the zen-student to experience 'ego death' which is the realisation that ego is unreal, and therefore the disproof of the mind's belief that it is identified with the ego, the attachment between mind and ego is broken.

Ego death leads directly to transcendence/rebirth/enlightenment. The enlightened mind of the matured psychedelic zen initiate no longer believes that ego is literally real. The ordinary state experience of 'apparently being an ego' is still there, just like it was before the trip, but the initiate now knows that it is unreal, just a conventional illusion which is unmasked and revealed by the psychedelic experience.

The best way to understand this process of psychedelic zen enlightenment is in terms of the association between the phenomenal manifestation and the underlying noumenal reality from which it originates. Mental symbols refer to an underlying reality, but the unenlightened mind takes this process of reference for granted, and assumes that the symbol just IS the underlying reality, ie it fully associates the symbol with its referent. And this is most relevant where the 'mental symbol' is the ego itself, the mental symbol for 'myself'. The unenlightened mind believes that the ego symbol just IS 'myself', but in the midst of a strong psychedelic trip, it becomes difficult to reasonably sustain that belief because of how 'unreal' everything seems. At the point when the mind ceases to believe that the ego-symbol is lietrally identical to oneself, we experience ego death.

 

[BrainEater]

so it boils down to, that nothing is what it seems etc etc???

maxfreakout btw i am glad you somehow seemed to have tried to get your shit straight..
just a little advice.. maybe consider not to try to be a wannabe-knowitall all the time and cling to that shit.
apart from possibly getting on other people's nerves it just seems to inflate your "stupid" ego at times.
why don't you start a fucking religion based on your theory on ego death and get it the fuck on???
i tell you, intelligence probably has much more levels than you were led to believe. :idea: :) :wink:
i am not saying i don't like the propagation of entheogens, but i just don't like it when it is done too
closed-mindedly. besides it seems to me closed-mindedness equals not even wanting/be able to listen to
and/or understand the opinions of others. clearly an ego issue. in addition to that you need to be able to accept that at first people probably won't want to accept your view because of their ignorance and in conclusion not get pissed off because of that or insecure and getting into patterns of even maybe only intellectual seeking for approval or something like that/similar patterns.. :!: :arrow: :idea:

and maybe but just maybe reality is basically like a psychedelic experience in the first place, so the idea
that only psychedelic drugs will bring you to that state may be kind of retarded, in the same way that most people
of the so called civilization are retarded ... including you?! :P :lol:
no offense, mind you, only speculation but i just try to be as open as i can.


peace!!!!!!! :shock: :twisted: :) 8)

[youtube]yq4T7t75kRg[/youtube]

 

[maxfreakout]

so it boils down to, that nothing is what it seems etc etc???

yes exactly, it's Platonic philosophy - there are 2 levels, the level of seeming, and the level of being, these 2 levels are NOT the same, just as sitting around meditating is NOT the same as tripping on LSD. Enlightenment is all about acknowledging and understanding this distinction, the psychedelic trip pulls apart the unenlightened mind's naive (first-approximation model) association (or identification) between seeming and being, therefore demonstrating that they are in fact 2 distinct levels of reality, and not one as was previously believed. Physical objects start to appear fluid and cartoonlike during a strong acid trip, they stop looking like 'real', objective, solid objects, and start looking more like zany mental projections. Ego death happens when this exact kind of reasoning is turned around backwards, away from the outside world and towards the self/ego, when ego learns that it is just a mental projection, and not a solid, objective 'thing', ego only *seems* to exist, it doesnt *actually/ultimately* exist.

why don't you start a fucking religion based on your theory on ego death

I have something much better than a new religion, we dont need a new religion, we already have plenty of superb, high-quality religions to study. All religions basically consist of lots and lots of allegorical descriptions of ego death and transcendence (for example, Jesus' crucifixion, Mohammed''s revelation, Buddha's enlightenment, Abraham's substitute sacrifice etc etc etc). Jesus eats the 'holy food' at the last supper, then he experiences a terrifying, agonising death trip followed by a glorious transcendent ressurection, this is a story about the classic 'acid trip gone wrong' ego death trip.

What i am outlining here is not a new religion, but rather a transcendent unifying principle which applies equally to all religions, - all religions are unified and explained by postulating that they all consist of metaphors for entheogenic ego-death

and maybe but just maybe reality is basically like a psychedelic experience in the first place, so the idea
that only psychedelic drugs will bring you to that state may be kind of retarded

there is a very big difference between tripping and not-tripping, we are not tripping all the time, you only trip for a few hours after you take drugs, all the rest of the time, you are not tripping. To understand ego death you need to appreciate that there is an obvious difference between 'ordinary' and 'psychedelic' states of consciousness. If you cant appreciate it, try takingh drugs, and paying careful attention to what happens, something CHANGES for a few hours, what exactly is it that changes? - The state of consciosness changes

 

[BrainEater]

...therefore demonstrating that they are in fact 2 distinct levels of reality, and not one as was previously believed.

what if they are one and different/not one at the same time??

Ego death happens when this exact kind of reasoning is turned around backwards, away from the outside world and towards the self/ego, when ego learns that it is just a mental projection, and not a solid, objective 'thing', ego only *seems* to exist, it doesnt *actually/ultimately* exist.

so my conclusion to your conclusion is that neither of both of us are real nor anybody else. or maybe just that what we think of ourselves?? :?:

What i am outlining here is not a new religion, but rather a transcendent unifying principle which applies equally to all religions, - all religions are unified and explained by postulating that they all consist of metaphors for entheogenic ego-death

well that does make some sense to me as it seems that religion is about sacrifice and/or service to others. i would choose another description of how they are unified tho i don't entirely disagree with yours, too. it's like everything is one, including religions, because god is one... 8)
it's like religions divide and spirituality unites, which is of course somehow paradox, because religion is supposed to be based on spirituality in some way or another. :roll: :|

there is a very big difference between tripping and not-tripping, we are not tripping all the time, you only trip for a few hours after you take drugs, all the rest of the time, you are not tripping.

so i dare to suggest that this is like basically everything what you say only your opinion. you form your opinion according to your experience, knowledge, etc etc... however as it may be like that for you, it still may be different for others.
as you said it depends on the state of consciousness and if you are able to alter it by will or possibly suggestion alone or even by maintaining a however previously achieved state of consciousness, then psychedelic/entheogenic drugs are just like tools... but then again from your perspective it probably would almost be like as if you would have to become a god to be able to do that??? mind you... i tell you.... it's a matter of discipline and devotion. there is intelligence beyond whatever rationality even tho you might not be aware of that. don't get me wrong i also value the tools that nature gave us for mind expansion besides for example our logical tool, but i do try to avoid seeing the external tools as the only way to achieving different bases for different states of consciousness. something like that...i guess i am on your side when it comes to the subject of restriction, acceptance etc etc in society... but maybe just get on the nerves of other people with your obsessive need to explain your still somehow limited perspective and/or do your research, please. but yeah.... i mean i sometimes can't avoid shoving my perspective(/ego(-mind)???) in other peoples faces, too... you know??? :o :P :)

peace

 

[maxfreakout]

what if they are one and different/not one at the same time??

what if the statement "they are one and not-one at the same time" is neither true nor false?

These kinds of questions are irrelevant to the project of altered-state phenomenology/cartography

so my conclusion to your conclusion is that neither of both of us are real nor anybody else. or maybe just that what we think of ourselves?? :?:

Ego believes that it is real, this is the meaning of "I think, therefore I exist", ego is attached to the idea of its own existence. Ego death happens when it all becomes unattached, and ego stops believing that it is real.

it's like religions divide and spirituality unites, which is of course somehow paradox, because religion is supposed to be based on spirituality in some way or another. :roll: :|

There are fundamentally TWO different ways of interpreting religion, the historical interpretation and the mythic interpretation. The historical interpretation divides, the mythic interpretation unites. According to the historical interpretation, Jesus and Mohammed are separate people, who are worshipped separately, according to the mythic interpretation, Jesus and Mohammed are both equivalent references to the experience of altered-state mental transformation. It is the psychedelic altered state experience which unifies religions, entheogenic tripping is the source and essence of *religion* (in the singular, not the plural 'religions')

so i dare to suggest that this is like basically everything what you say only your opinion. you form your opinion according to your experience, knowledge, etc etc... however as it may be like that for you, it still may be different for others.

What i am saying is true for everyone, - entheogens make you trip, this is not an 'opinion', it is a fact which we can both agree on. Are you claiming that people dont trip when they take entheogens?

don't get me wrong i also value the tools that nature gave us for mind expansion besides for example our logical tool, but i do try to avoid seeing the external tools as the only way to achieving different bases for different states of consciousness.

Try to get my "opinion" absolutely right before you claim you pretend to disagree with me, this ^ comment fails to connect to what i am saying, because i am not talking about "achieving different bases for different states of consciousness", I am talking absolutely specifically about intense psychedelic tripping.

There are many ways besides drugs to achieve "different states of consciousness" as you put it. For example, you can spin around on the spot without drugs, and that will make you dizzy, which is a different state of consciousness.

But there is one specific 'different state of consciousness', the intense psychedelic state of consciousness, which is only practically accessible via taking entheogens, if you disagree, then state clearly how it is possible to have a psychedelic trip without taking drugs

 

[BrainEater]

What i am saying is true for everyone, - entheogens make you trip, this is not an 'opinion', it is a fact which we can both agree on. Are you claiming that people dont trip when they take entheogens?

exactly that... but all i'm claiming is that it's possible while you say it's not. in my opinion the achievable state of consciousness may seriously be comparable. i see you can't imagine it... so i think it could be like a whole other level of thinking/contemplation/experience for lack of a better word. i try to speak only from experience and i experienced it like that and i did try some entheogens.. :lol:

Try to get my "opinion" absolutely right before you claim you pretend to disagree with me, this ^ comment fails to connect to what i am saying, because i am not talking about "achieving different bases for different states of consciousness", I am talking absolutely specifically about intense psychedelic tripping.

There are many ways besides drugs to achieve "different states of consciousness" as you put it. For example, you can spin around on the spot without drugs, and that will make you dizzy, which is a different state of consciousness.

But there is one specific 'different state of consciousness', the intense psychedelic state of consciousness, which is only practically accessible via taking entheogens, if you disagree, then state clearly how it is possible to have a psychedelic trip without taking drugs

you're a quibbler... as if "achieving different bases for different states of consciousness" couldn't include "intense psychedelic states of consciousness"... it's just a general description, not a specific one. so difficult to understand?? i already told you before how it could be possible to achieve a psychedelic trip without taking drugs... i didn't say it would be easy tho. so don't twist around what i say when uncalled for, please, or at least try to understand it more, if you can. just a few examples: music, intense deep meditation, hypnosis, daydreaming, etc etc... :shock: :shock: :shock: :P
children do it naturally, but it's like adults have obviously unlearned it in our so called civilization...
i heard (one of?) the most effective method(s) to "become god" is to just close your eyes and imagine the most beautiful feeling or thought or so you can possibly imagine...


peace!!!

 

[zezt]

I love it that what consciousness or matter is is a mystery ..even for 'know-it-all' scientism--though some would argue they DO know, but they is full of you know what.

'tripping' is also afroamerican slang for a state of being where you are 'hallucinatin'--I had it once. I was busted in the 80s when driving by these cops--this was at a time of my life i was already going thru stress at this terrible job and lots of other shit. They arested me all dramatically, threw me in a cell after subjecting me to a humiliating rectum search, and warned me they were gonna search where i lived. When i was in the cell i was so freaked the walls were moving like they can when your tripping!
People who are claiming to have 'schizophrenia' can also 'trip' so you dont ONLy have to have entheogens

IO distrust all this 'egolessness' talk. some of the biggest manipulators--like Indian gurus and zen masters--have claimed to have no ego. I would sooner say, yeah I have an ego have you? yeah, good. What i would encourage is not having a RIGID ego. Ie., if someone didn't like jazz I would think them resisting that type of music. if they didn't like other forms of music i would think the same. If they didn't wanna experiment with different types of food, I would think the same--though would respect if they had a limit. Not EVERYONE can like EVERYthing can they? we are all unique

 

[ophiuchus]

The username 'allusion' is an arrow, pointing to a thing, and that thing is you, the ego/self named 'allusion'.

hence the reason i chose that name. :)

... "The psychedelic experiences reveals that ALL empirical phenomena (everything which you take to be 'reality')"...

... "which is the realisation that ego is unreal, and therefore the disproof of the mind's belief that it is identified with the ego," ...

..."Mental symbols refer to an underlying reality, but the unenlightened mind takes this process of reference for granted, and assumes that the symbol just IS the underlying reality, ie it fully associates the symbol with its referent."...

when you say these things, you are referring of course, to the great fallacy of language itself, correct? that meaning that nothing true, can be "said", because it is purely representational. "to measure length, even of the longest piece of string, is to define how short it is." :lol:

ego is attached to the idea of its own existence

ego is attached to the idea of egodeath

i see no difference in these two statements. (they are both neither true or false, by either of our definitions, as is stated in this thread) any "idea" that can be conveyed for that matter, adheres to these rules, that we, and language itself, have defined. :)

in the sense that language is unreal, and unable to truely define anything, i'd like to know, personally, what do you make of the fact that (the entire theory of) "ego death" is a word? or that (the defining characteristics of) "life" and "death" are words... in this sense, they can't be taken literally, so what do you make of it? :lol:

 

[maxfreakout]

... "The psychedelic experiences reveals that ALL empirical phenomena (everything which you take to be 'reality')"...
... "which is the realisation that ego is unreal, and therefore the disproof of the mind's belief that it is identified with the ego," ...
..."Mental symbols refer to an underlying reality, but the unenlightened mind takes this process of reference for granted, and assumes that the symbol just IS the underlying reality, ie it fully associates the symbol with its referent."...

when you say these things, you are referring of course, to the great fallacy of language itself, correct?

no i wouldnt say this is a reference to a 'fallacy of language' (ie spoken language), it is a reference to the experience of mentally 'dying' in the psychedelic altered state (ego death). Ego death is a shift from one level of understanding (the egoic worldmodel) to a higher level of understanding (the transcendent worldmodel). The fallacy lies in the way in which the mind interprets the ordinary state of consciousness, prior to ego death, the fallacy is then corrected by the ego death experience, so that the reborn transcendent mind no longer commits the fallacy.

in the sense that language is unreal, and unable to truely define anything, i'd like to know, personally, what do you make of the fact that (the entire theory of) "ego death" is a word? or that (the defining characteristics of) "life" and "death" are words... in this sense, they can't be taken literally, so what do you make of it? :lol:

ego death is not a word, it is an experience which the mind undergoes. When we explore these fringe experiences, if we are good explorers, we will draw maps of these realms of consciousness, these maps can take the form of words such as trip-reports or theories about trip reports, or else they can take other forms, such as paintings. But the map (whether it is verbal or not) should always be carefully distinguished from the territory which it represents, these are not the same thing