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Consciousness.

IJesusChrist

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
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22 Juil 2008
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My main questions to you;

Do you believe that only humans are conscious?

Do you believe that some animals are conscious?

Do you believe all animals are conscious?

Do you believe all life is conscious?

Do you believe all matter is conscious?

If you do not believe in the latter, please explain where you draw the line.
 

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Banni
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19 Jan 2010
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320
"Do you believe that only humans are conscious?"

All we know is that only humans perceive the world the way humans do. Animals and plants have a different nervous system and so are conscious of their surroundings in a different way. But all living beings are conscious. If they were not, they wouldn't survive.

"Do you believe that some animals are conscious?"

All animals are conscious, but their comprehension of themselves and their surroundings may be limited. Immature human beings (infants and children) also have a limited understanding of themselves and their environment, as pointed out by developmental psychologists. Of course the consciousness of mature human beings is also limited, but it is the most developed form of awareness we know of, and I don't think it's insignificant.

"Do you believe all animals are conscious?"

Yes.

"Do you believe all life is conscious?"

Yes, for without consciousness (the feedback mechanism) no living system can maintain itself.

"Do you believe all matter is conscious?"

No, I don't believe matter is conscious. It may store information (like crystals do) but it doesn't process it. Simply because there's no need to. A rock will be a rock. It doesn't have to do or avoid anything to remain a rock.

"If you do not believe in the latter, please explain where you draw the line."

Whether we're talking about a living system that eats, digests, breathes and reproduces, or one that doesn't. Matter is that which doesn't do anything and doesn't have to do anything to continue its existence. All living systems have DNA.
 

IJesusChrist

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Viruses have DNA, but work directly and only on chemical reactions from their "probe" feet, and the outside of a cell wall. They are composed of a shell, and DNA/RNA, and that is all.

do you believe they are conscious?
 

BrainEater

Banni
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21 Juil 2007
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seriously go shoot yourself!!! nothing is REALLY conscious in a deterministic universe. :roll: 8)
 

IJesusChrist

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... Brain...

First of all that's a pretty immature comment man, really. There is a "Suicide" topic right below that, move your comment into there. Secondly consciousness has nothing to do with determinism; consciousness is the perception of reality, we have memories, we perceive time.

YOU are confusing FREE WILL with CONSCIOUSNESS.

THINK before you POST about REPURCUSSIONS. THINK brain, THINK, you're getting lost in YOURSELF.
 

BrainEater

Banni
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21 Juil 2007
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5 922
alright ma'am... i'm so sorry ok!? lol if u tell me, mostly like rude like that, what i should do, i do that again, too. shoot yourself, seriously!!! i live in my own universe anyway... you act as if your worded definitions of what is basically your reality are the absolute truth. if you weren't already chippy i'd laugh at you. but well i still do anyways.
and it sounds as if you wanna accuse me for losing myself or being lost in myself. get real, bitch.. or have you really leased all wisdom and knowledge that exists absolutely for yourself?

ok hmm in retrospect i'm maybe a bit sorry again, for having been bad to you . i am not sure whether you are already or still sure, whether you could just as example shoot yourself and hence end your individual consciousness experience. regarding this, i'd say no, as i have researched this subject for quite a while. so what i wanna be doing in reality is to encourae you to think positively, but well, maybe you can handle it when i sometimes provoke you or i think i need to defend myself verbally lol... just don't take it too personally or tell me to stop when i bother you... with some friends i talk like they are made of shit sometimes too lol, but it's no problem, only when the basis for communication, understanding or trust are taken or thrown away or so... and i do stop mostly with the bothering when i am told to...


i think consciousness might have some parallels with time, as it can like time, play the warden and the prisoner at the same time, know what i'm sayin... yo just take it easy man. if you are bothered by your own present consciousness you can by the way also practice meditation and merge your consciousness with your surroundings or just relax and focus your attention, focus and/or concentration on specific issues you want to deal with. for example imagine this: what would happen if for whatever reason you could suddenly lose your belief in science?



peace :weedman:
 

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Banni
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19 Jan 2010
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IJesusChrist a dit:
Viruses have DNA, but work directly and only on chemical reactions from their "probe" feet, and the outside of a cell wall. They are composed of a shell, and DNA/RNA, and that is all.
I said "all living systems have DNA", not "all systems that utilize DNA are living and conscious".

do you believe they are conscious?
Well, a virus is more like a program than an entity that has to make choices, but insofar as the virus uses probe feet to determine where it is in a certain environment, or which stage it should enter next, I would say it's a conscious system, albeit extremely limited to only one mission.

Teehee, something I found on Wikipedia:

800px-Icosahedral_Adenoviruses.jpg

Electron micrograph of icosahedral adenovirus
 

Brugmansia

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Mankind remaining ignorant about the deepest fundaments of how consciousness works and how wide it strikes is probably the smartest lock up of nature to prevent that we sell our own bright happiness for getting our hands on the codes of an ''omnipotent'' essence.
 

IJesusChrist

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Avatar -
Yeah, their shapes are interesting. I find them fascinating actually, a real gray area between life and non-living. Only two real functional areas, the DNA/RNA and their 'feet' or protein communicators... Basically just a mechanism for reproduction. But why did a replicating mechanism so complex start in the first place (well relatively complex, of course). It's odd how replication seems to be some sort of asymptote chemistry tries to strive towards, I love it.

If I start with looking at rocks and then to viruses, I seem to believe no, they are not conscious, but if I start from the top down it seems obvious that everything must be conscious. I don't really know my own definition of consciousness, but I would say that all matter is connected to all other matter, thus the ability for change to be perceived by everything is the basis of consciousness.

I think if one entity is conscious, all entities are - and entities meaning matter on which forces can act, to be very general.

The chair you are sitting on, the plant in your house/apartment, your pet, your neighbor, and yourself. It may be that consciousness requires a secondary consciousness to perceive itself? Ahh, the wonders of the abyss.

Brain, I don't understand why you are so angry; I think you are either afraid of determinism or simply do not want to think about it, attempt to even understand it. "Bitch" "Go shoot yourself" etc really bring down my respect for you, but I doubt you care. Don't get lost in yourself.
 

Sprax

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30 Juin 2009
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* Do you believe that only humans are conscious?
No.

* Do you believe that some animals are conscious?
Yes.

* Do you believe all animals are conscious?
Hmm, tough one... it's possible that some simple organism aren't, but we really have no way of knowing.

* Do you believe all life is conscious?
All life? That depends on your definition of life, which is an interesting question in itself. Did we see things around us and chose to call some things "life", or should we use a scientific definition of life where we first come up with certain criteria and then attempt to apply those to things around us? The results aren't identical There are certainly gray areas such as viruses and bacteria, as has been mentioned in this thread. My guess would be that such types of "life" are not able to think and are therefore not conscious. Also for those reasons, imo, it is questionable if they can be called alive of life.

* Do you believe all matter is conscious?
No.

* If you do not believe in the latter, please explain where you draw the line.
I would say I am conscious, which refers to me as a whole. My finger, for instance, isn't. The difference between an alive and dead person lies in the chemical process are or aren't taking place. In order for consciousness to be produced, the organism as a whole has to function.

In much the same way as the difference between a car that is or isn't running, the difference between an alive and dead person lies not in something such as a soul disappearing, but rather in chemical processes that are or aren't taking place. In order for consciousness to be produced, the organism has to be “running”.
 

IJesusChrist

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Sprax, I think you may need to look into this further;

I can tell you know how to think, but I'm wondering if more thought on this subject could be beneficial - you're seeing gray areas of consciousness...

The bacteria functions as a whole... As do we. We are not aware of all processes simultaneously in our own bodies though...

Is a jelly fish conscious? Is it alive?
 

HermesTrismegistus

Elfe Mécanique
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11 Mai 2010
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344
Do you believe that only humans are conscious?

No i don't believe that only humans are conscious.

Do you believe that some animals are conscious?

Yes, I know for example that Dolphins can recognise them self in a mirror, and there are even clue's that they are maybe more conscious then we ever thought they where.

Do you believe all animals are conscious?

Yes, but all in there own unique way.

Do you believe all life is conscious?

Yes, but again in it's own unique way what probably go's beyond human understanding.

Do you believe all matter is conscious?

I really don't know, but i won't say it isn't conscious.
 

Sprax

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30 Juin 2009
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IJesusChrist a dit:
Sprax, I think you may need to look into this further;

I can tell you know how to think, but I'm wondering if more thought on this subject could be beneficial...
Likely :) While consciousness is a fascinating area of study, I'm somewhat resigned to it because we know so little that research is almost impossible. For starters, do we even know what consciousness is? Without being able to answer such a basic question, how do we even know what we are researching? "What is X" Well that depends on X.

- you're seeing gray areas of consciousness...
Well what I said was that what counts as life is a matter of definition. Since there are many definitions of life, some things count as being alive according to some definitions and not others. Thus certain “things” exist in a gray area. Viruses especially seem to create a lot of confusion. For one they do not reproduce (on their own), something which is usually required in order for something to count as being alive.

Examples:
http://www.beyondbooks.com/lif72/2c.asp
http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic ... alive-2004


The bacteria functions as a whole... As do we. We are not aware of all processes simultaneously in our own bodies though...
True, viruses are a better example since they do not function as a whole. They are not “complete” without a “host”.

We are not aware of all processes going on in own bodies, true. The “test” of consciousness for me would be whether or not something is aware of its existence – if it is, it is conscious. Bacteria may be “aware” of their surroundings in some sense, since they are able to respond to various stimuli (although that would also apply to a set of dominoes), but afaik they are not aware they exist.

Is a jelly fish conscious? Is it alive?
Hmm, I don't know enough about them to add anything meaningful. They are interesting though – whatever they are.

Edit: Actually I just saw you've already written about some of the things I mentioned, such as viruses. I'm too tired to rewrite anything though... I think the shortest summary I can give of my opinion of consciousness is that since owr knowledge is currently so limited, any answer to a question about consciousness tends to amount to "it's a matter of definition".
 

Brugmansia

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2 Nov 2006
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Do you believe that only humans are conscious?

No.

Do you believe that some animals are conscious?

Yes.

Do you believe all animals are conscious?

Yes, but all to a certain degree. An ant shall have 000001% of what a grown human owns.

Do you believe all life is conscious?

Yes, yet again, some life possess it extremely minor, since I have no recall of the time in my mother's belly myself.

Do you believe all matter is conscious?

No, but it has the potential to form consciousness, after all everything is binded through atoms.

If you do not believe in the latter, please explain where you draw the line.

I can only speak for the human race, it has been said DMT is produced 49 days after birth, but we perceive and sense since about the age of 3. I believe there's a threshold before it becomes palpable by the carrier itself.
 

GregKasarik

Glandeuse pinéale
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28 Fev 2010
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Do you believe that only humans are conscious?

No.

Do you believe that some animals are conscious?

Yes.

Do you believe all animals are conscious?

No.

Do you believe all life is conscious?

No.

Do you believe all matter is conscious?

No.

If you do not believe in the latter, please explain where you draw the line.

I don't think that it makes sense to draw the line at any particular point, as I believe that consciousness, like so many things is analogue, not digital. As such, we can identify certain things that don't have it (rocks, dead people and politicians) and certain things that do (most humans, dogs and dolphins). Between each of these two extremes, there will exist a range of beings that most likely possess none (viruses) and those that most likely possess some (sharks), with a whole lot in the middle which will be indeterminate (jellyfish).

My position is similar to Sprax. I believe that being fully conscious requires an "awareness" of their environments and perhaps even an self and as far as we know, this awareness is only to be found within animals that have a central nervous system and a reasonably complex brain. Is an ant concious? I would say so, but then again,it might not be. It certainly is aware of its environment, able to interact with other things and complete tasks related to its role in the nest, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is any more conscious than a human engineered robot that could perform the same actions. Personally, I highly doubt that a jellyfish, lacking a central nervous system as it does, is conscious, even if it is able to respond to its environment.

But what about the sub-conscious, which research has shown to be often a more significant driver of our behaviour than conscious awareness? I think that many of the lower animals would have what we could call only a sub-consious awareness of the world in which they live. Then at some point, full consciousness and self awareness emerge, but in a gradual manner, rather than as if a switch were being flicked and a light suddenly turned on. One can imagine a similar process going on within the development of an embryo, where gradually over time, the certainly not conscious fertilised egg becomes more conscious, a process that arguably continues into the first years of life.

Which brings me to the case of a patient in a vegitative state. Do they have any consciousness, or not? If not, at what point can they be said to be certainly conscious and at what point can they be said to be definitely lacking that consciousness? What of someone like Terri Schiavo, who's autopsy showed that her brain was half the expected weight and had significant damage to all sections, and who was almost certainly not conscious, despite having a series of seemingly automatic behaviours that gave the appearance that she was.

The interesting thing here is that as Decartes pointed out, the only thing that we can ever truly know is the fact of our own consciousness. Does this mean that the sub-conscious being can never truly know anything? If so, what is the ultimate meaning of consciousness?

Certainly, I'd say that neither a virus, nor a carrot is conscious. They both lack a central nervous system and as such have no way of centralising information in a manner that would seem necessary for consciousness to arise.

I'm certainly open to there existing states of consciousness within our material universe that are totally unlike anything that we could currently comprehend. For example, I sometimes wonder if there could exist a galactic scale form of consciousness within the charged particles that zip around our universe, or perhaps another within the confines of the sun. How this could be, I have no idea, but I am open to the idea that it might be possible, if not highly likely, given what we currently believe about the foundations of consciousness.

There is also another issue raised here, and that is the potential trivialisation of consciousness. If everything is conscious, then what is so special about consiousness? Surely, if the rock is conscious, it deserves the same rights and priviliges as a human? If the rock is conscious, then dead bodies are therefore also likely to be conscious. Why then, would anybody complain if I convert one live human into one dead human? Surely it is still conscious? And yes, while these questions are asked tongue in cheek, they point to a wider issue about the importance of the recognising consciousness in terms of determining morally appropriate behaviours.
 

Brugmansia

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[youtube]29CeYntA8ZA[/youtube]

Such an innocent matrix. :lol:

They may be not aware at all, but there must be a sort of operating system which controls a precursor to move their tiny body's in the way they behave.
 

doticeman

Neurotransmetteur
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26 Mar 2010
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I believe consciousness implies being. All things that can be touched, smelt, heard, seen and tasted are conscious in that they are there and are being perceived. To be yourself conscious of something means that it itself is conscious. It may not have a mind like you and and I and perhaps that constitutes consciousness to some people but it is self-aware. It understands some small part of its being in the universe. The wall of a house is just as conscious as a dog or a grain of sand. At the end of the day we are all made up of the same stuff (ie. atoms etc) and just because we have this thing humans refer to as a mind does not mean that an inanimate object does not have one. That inanimate object is able to do something - it is able to be. This to me means that it is conscious and has consciousness.
 

IJesusChrist

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Who watches the watcher?
 

Brugmansia

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All a coincidence, without intelligence, nature tried all the combinations of grówth and structure before it found the appropriate codes. Took a good 5 billion years (which is scientifically the age of our sun). But with our intelligence, we need nowhere around that amount of time to produce a robot like ourselve. But we might run out of resources before we get to perfection.

But... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science_and_ ... 132762.stm
 
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