Adverse Entity Encountering Anyone?

[VerusDeus]

"I believe because it is absurd" -Tertullian

No idea who this man really is(besides that it was an early Christian), but I came across this quote yesterday and just had to throw it in 8) Not that I know what he exactly means by it though...

I don't think the notion of an astral plane is that absurd, and I think psychedelics definately provide some insight into this hocus-pocus realm. But aside from that there are somehow many people from all kinds of cultures, religions and traditions who accept this phenomenon as being real. Doesn't prove anything, but definately counts as a reason for me to not just debunk it by saying: well I have never been to such a place, so it isn't there...

But it's a pointless discussion, you are either open to such a suggestion or you aren't.

 

[BrainEater]

you're not weird mate!! salvia is!!!

i experienced similar effects tho i had "only" smoked 15x extract.
and i can totally relate to this strange feeling of different "realities" of which maybe the so called "astral plane" might be one of em... it just seems to be so alien, that you think you can never integrate the experience. but does it matter? you had the experience and it was real for you so maybe you can learn something out of it. thats the most important thing for me in my experience, because if you can't learn out of it, it might've been a good experience, but then what would be the point?? sry i'm pretty drunk right now maybe i'll write more later!!!...

peace!! :weedman:

 

[bliksem]

Borrowing the signature of 'chimp_masta_flex'.

Man has always achieved the possible by attempting the impossible, he who has only ever tried to do that which he knew possible has never taken a single step forward. - Mikhail Bakunin

 

[VerusDeus]

The astral plane, huh?

You may as well be discussing how many angels will fit on the head of a pin.

Yes, and I am sure Aquinas enjoyed doing so, and so may we.

"Nothing is in the intellect that was not first in the senses" -Thomas Aquinas

 

[ophiuchus]

spice (IMO) is simply trying to advise you, that you won't get anywhere conclusive by discussing it in an esoteric manner. i believe that there are other ways of wording/thinking (on the same topic) that bear more logic, but in doing it this (esoteric) way, all you're going to have is about a 1000 totally radical opinions, majority of which will hold no insight for you.

why would you rail someone who gave you advice in the first place? even if it's not "good" advice to you, someone went out on a limb to try and help you. someone who you should notice as very experienced i might add. how about YOU all ignore HIS post? his ENTIRE post, instead of just all the intelligent advice as is now. :?

needless, i agree with spice

 

[VerusDeus]

I get where you two are coming from, but the thing is if you are going to discuss entity encountering from a scientific point of view, you won't get anywhere. And as said before this is about his experience, and him trying to grasp the meaning behind it. This is about the experiential effects the drug had on him, and not the chemical/biological etc.

I am not scorning your advice(or spice's), but I was just wondering why we should not, according to you two, discuss anything that doesn't have any scientific foothold. I mean we are posting on a forum which centers itself around the fact that certain substances may 'enlighten' us, which from a scientific point of view(aside from experiential data) is still bogus.

I don't have anything against science, but we can discuss things from both scientific perspective and expieriential perspective. And I think the latter is more appropriate in this thread. Experience is about subjectivity not objectivity. And we're not trying to prove anything, so why bother trying to be as objective as possible?

 

[spice]

If you are going to discuss entity encountering FROM ANY POINT OF VIEW you will GET NOWHERE FAST unless and until you quit MODELING it in an externalized fashion.


All you are doing are sharing esoteric models.

There really isn't much to explain.....

Thomas Aquinas was a Catholic who tried to couch religion in ordinary, everyday terms. He was one of the main disseminators of the idea of Natural Theology, which is basically, religion applied to day to day life.....thus, it is differed from
REVEALED theology, which is religion based on religious experiences....which sounds closer to what you guys are discussing when talking about those things.

The relevance of 'how many angels can fit on the head of a pin'?

Zero then, zero now.

 

[VerusDeus]

Okay, prepare for the most unconvincing rebuttal so far...

People who believe in the spirit-worlds(form shamans to mystics from pretty much any religion), apparently all seem to believe in nether-regions of this spirit world as well. This supposedly was a place we all have to go through when dying. This nether world is inhabited by beings, who are often considered to be 'evil' because they more or less attack you. However the consensus among these people seems to be that they are a necessary evil, that are there to strip you of your false self before you can travel onwards. (however all those people also believe in evil spirits that can harass you, so to give in to them would be unwise, as I assume it's hard to tell the difference between the two.)

Notice any similarities between this story and Necridious' trip?

I am not saying I believe all this, as I haven't experienced anything like it or even come close to it. But for Necridious this information could be useful for interpreting his experience.

But, yes, this can also be considered delusional and as relevant as the how-many-angels-fit-on-a-pinhead, I won't deny that. But it's up to Necridious to come to a conclusion on whether it is useful or simple bogus. (Again, I haven't been there so to me it is bogus, yet I don't rule out the possibillity of it being so, for neither do I have proof that the opposite is true.)

But yeah, I do understand that many people would prefer not to discuss these things, as they do conflict with rationalism quite a bit...
Peace

[Edit]: *Of course you could still argue that this spirit world, and it's angels and demons are projections of your imagination. It may nevetheless pertain valuable information, like a dream for instance. *

 

[spice]

"People who believe in the spirit-worlds(form shamans to mystics from pretty much any religion), apparently all seem to believe in nether-regions of this spirit world as well. This supposedly was a place we all have to go through when dying. This nether world is inhabited by beings, who are often considered to be 'evil' because they more or less attack you. However the consensus among these people seems to be that they are a necessary evil, that are there to strip you of your false self before you can travel onwards. (however all those people also believe in evil spirits that can harass you, so to give in to them would be unwise, as I assume it's hard to tell the difference between the two.)"

This sounds like Los Angeles.....or Houston


I am not saying that this is delusional. Not in the conventional sense. It IS, however, all in the head.

Therefore, a hypothesis can only evolve to that point, a theory only, unable to be tested, because no one can replicate the conditions consistently enough to verify or disprove it.

Granted, it *may* contain valuable information, but then again, it may not.

That's the point, we don't KNOW because it doesn't speak to us as clearly as LSD or MDA or Psilocin......it is a mumbler, it doesn't speak in the bell-like tones of psilocibin, not nearly so eloquent.....couple this with the fact that it generally doesn't feel good, and ugh...nasty

THEN, we begin with the astral plane........sounds like the path to non-clarity to me

 

[VerusDeus]

I know. But to the people who have experienced similar things, this may however resonate like the crystal clear inner logos one may experience in his private elevated state of consciousness.

That's why it's bogus to me, I haven't been there so the notion doesn't resonate in the core of my being. But I know that many people who do experience such otherwordly sensations often describe the experience as being more true than consensus reality.

Salvia, especially when smoked, often lacks the narrative that enables the person under it's influence to grasp the deeper meaning of the experience. That's what's so unappealing about (smoked?) salvia. But the lack of narrative does not necessarily mean that it was all futile recreation, it just forces the spectator to actively engage in a search for the underlying meaning.(even after the effects have worn off)

My personal sojourns into the world of smoked salvia, have always been fruitless nevetheless. But sublingually it seemed to be capable of providing me with a much more 'clear' directing mystical state.(those were just-over-the-threshold experiences, so I am now anxious to try a more sufficient dose sublingually, and see what I can get out of that.)

Peace

 

[bliksem]

@ophiuchus Respect

Believe me. I'm not trying to discuss in an esoteric manner. I'm talking transportation & logistics. I'm trying to make sense of things for myself first.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entheogen

 

[spice]

I know. But to the people who have experienced similar things, this may however resonate like the crystal clear inner logos one may experience in his private elevated state of consciousness.

That's why it's bogus to me, I haven't been there so the notion doesn't resonate in the core of my being. But I know that many people who do experience such otherwordly sensations often describe the experience as being more true than consensus reality.

Salvia, especially when smoked, often lacks the narrative that enables the person under it's influence to grasp the deeper meaning of the experience. That's what's so unappealing about (smoked?) salvia. But the lack of narrative does not necessarily mean that it was all futile recreation, it just forces the spectator to actively engage in a search for the underlying meaning.(even after the effects have worn off)

My personal sojourns into the world of smoked salvia, have always been fruitless nevetheless. But sublingually it seemed to be capable of providing me with a much more 'clear' directing mystical state.(those were just-over-the-threshold experiences, so I am now anxious to try a more sufficient dose sublingually, and see what I can get out of that.)

Peace

Now you're talking about something practical, the effects of a drug. I understand what you're saying.

Nowhere in that did you mention astral projection, yet you made your point BETTER anyway.

See what I am saying?

peace back at ya

 

[ophiuchus]

^point made.

"This is about the experiential effects the drug had on him, and not the chemical/biological etc"

we aren't referring to science. we were referring to experiential effects in the first place.. things are not black and white, hot or cold, we aren't trying to derail the thread simply because its eccentric.
i think the point being made, was to make sure you're using the right words, so that people CAN find benefit from them.

EDITED*essentially describing how something is to the senses, instead of assuming your own label to it (( like "astral plane" or "entities"))) see the difference? they are established properties that we can't establish


@ bliksem, what do you mean by transportation and logistics? nobody is "going" anywhere.. also what was it that you were trying to get me to read on that link, i know what "entheogen" means, you'll have to be more specific on your reference, cause i dont have time to dig for a possible relation in an article that long...

*i just read "horrible problems" and felt it necessary to edit my post, as i thought it might be in bad taste. rip vlad.

 

[VerusDeus]

Point taken.

I misunderstood, I thought you weren't open to the possibillity of such a concept.

But I use the term because it's hard to find a good way to verbally communicate such an abstract concept. I do not use it because I have all these preconceived notions about this 'place', but for the lack of a better word.

But, I realize now it's futile to try and assign a word to it, because the 'place' was not of particular relevance anyway.

Peace.

 

[bliksem]

What i mean by the link is the esoteric factor. The reason i use psychedelics. You are right. I don't know what his reasons are for using. But that was not the point. He said he felt bad. I tried to help.
The human psyche is an area i have yet to discover.

 

[bliksem]

BTW I didn't get past page seventysomething maybe eightysomething. The writer sounds like someone who would beat on a sleeping man.

 

[cymbolic]

I haven't come across malevolent entities. But I know a friend who had a bad experience smoking extract out in the woods at dusk by himself. He became aware of malicious creatures that were all around him watching him. It scared the shit out of him and he ran to the house as fast as possible.

I read another account online where a guy had a similar thing happen - he was lying on a hill outside in early evening and sensed that a great number of small creatures were in the trees mocking him, and they were distinctly malevolent.

I know all about salvia's habit of mocking. Many times it has made me feel incredibly stupid and inferior, like I don't know anything about anything (especially about reality, haha). So I can relate to this feeling you described, it hits home:

This felt like I had been discovered by something so incredibly alien that it couldn't in any way appreciate the needs of my existence, and saw me only as a totally inferior plaything...Its level of existence was seemingly waaaaaay beyond my own, and it was aware of this and delighted in it.

Except I never felt particularly threatened, just very ignorant. Did you have multiple encounters like this?

 

[kedabra]

This sounds like a typical panic and abort trip. Salvia is somewhat forgiving in this respect, its usually possible to pull out if you are getting freaked out, although the price is the massive sense of dismay and uneasy dissapointment which you described.

I would suggest lying down in silent pitch darkness, in bed, with earplugs in. relax or meditate for 30 mins beforehand, and then take your hit, or better still, chew up your leaves with tequila, for a feature length 90 minute trip. optionally you could bike lock yourself to the bed, if you don't have a sitter, and youre prone to bolting. I know someone used to tie themselves to a fence post.

If you use sensory deprivation, you don't get any of the nasty "dimensional collapse" fellings that you were getting as the room became distorted. you can melt and flow into the space without the impending sense of doom that the singularities and boundaries of the collapsing 3 dimensional world present.

You will probably still feel boundaries and approaching singularities, in silent darkness, in a more minds-eye way, but the important thing to remember is not to struggle against them, and not to attempt to help the process along either. allow them to approach and move through you, let them dissolve, fold you and change you. this is how salvia works, its the carrier wave. you have to get used to its method of operation. if you can get past the frankly disturbing way that it works, then you can start to get useful insights from it.

 

[BrainEater]

definately!! i am too amazed by the power of the plant to show me who i am from a different perspective. if i hadn't so much respect for the plant i would probably use it more often to explore my mind or the salvia realms or whatever, but since i am really almost scared of the power of the effects i haven't come to using it again for a long period of time.

 

[IJesusChrist]

I read the first post.

Yup. That is what salvia was for me.

Slightly different- but same theme.

I was falling through at first a fractal, the fractal that creates reality - it was made of 'humans'. They were aware of the reality they made, and were behind everything I saw and everything I heard. They stretched the bounds of what I thought reality was to something I could no completely understand (but was on the verge of). As I kind of grounded myself in their reality (no longer in a dimensionless fractal) I became aware that everything and everyone was just a "set" they had made, all of reality, everything was in this box. If I left the box, I actually was back in the box. The box was kind of like a loop, where I was stuck in this dimension, but I could conceive of others, but this group of salvia entities kept me here, in this box, for all of my time.

I have come to realize that this box is consciousness. Everything we view is always within this box, this frame, from you, from your reference. I understand it on the very deepest level, and to be honest a salvia trip makes perfect sense to my subconscious, i.e. after salvia I know exactly what it meant, what it implied about me and reality, yet I cannot explain it to anyone including myself.

It's VERY frightening. After the trip, I was with friends, and during the trip I realized they were all actors - that the 'people' were basically them. This came to make sense eventually to - we see other people and we kind of put of veil over who they are as seperate beings - they become "Someone" in our minds, they have specific characteristics and predictable behaviors, to us. They are... actors in our heads, we try to make sense of what they do based on their past, which is a very large network of memories that have created who they are.

This was my greatest fear - that is why I made that post - that I was trapped in a box, and everything was within that box. But I have learned there are many boxes. One day I may try salvia again, and attempt to break my box - see if it is even possible. But not any time soon.

Sorry if I have steered the previous posts off topic.