'Addictive' drugs

[Brugmansia]

It has often been said amoung psychonauts that 'addictive' drugs have no point or no destination. In some way, this is true. But isn't it just a matter of choice with just the same wish? ---> Leading your life with happiness and a satisfied connection with itself?

Superficialness with no deepness may cause an equal connection with life for some, which psychonauts do with entheogens. And many people don't even feel enriched when they enter some doors.

Psychoactives with no psychedelics effects are described for 'the weaks'. Which is quite a contradiction since users of 'addictive' drugs are dealing with heavy mental issues. Since you need to be strong and loyal with yourself to keep them enjoyable and not to be taken over.

Personally, I have had intense nights with discrete use of amphetamine and cocaine too, and as well sensed the dark side of crack and it's culture. I have got enough to life for and entheogene are my ultimate basics so there's no fear I'll fall into an addiction.

Somehow the incidental and discrete use of 'addictive' dope is definitely a rich additional besides a psychedelic life. Who shares this? And how far do you go when it comes to tasting speed, coke, smack and crack etc?

 

[spice]

You have a good point, but I don't think most of us have the luxury of so much time that we can squander it in this fashion.

My guess is that many of us psychonauts came to be here because we evolved into being here, and that many of us spent a lot of time in those dark places you speak of. I know I have. I wasted all my teens, all of my 20's to those types of experiences....the individual called 'spice' on this board is only 12 years old....reborn through LSD,MDMA, and psilocibin and risen from the ashes of death, never to return, from the 33 years old point where the 'old' addicted, powerless me died on 17 hits of LSD taken all at once. I killed him, on purpose, simply because he was trapped in the spaces you are advocating.

But I like to think that we evolved, or progressed to this point, and there is always the risk of falling back into those places for most.

Why?

Because unlike yourself many people DON'T have so much to live for, many people don't have entheogens as their basis, and these are probably descriptions of the majority of people. I CAN'T go back there, by my own design. I moved, severed all relationships with that world, and never looked back.

You are well-qualified for exploring these areas, in that you do have stuff to live for, and you already know the entheogenic world, many don't.

Also, and this is my MAIN point....When you spend very much time in these spaces, you will find that you're going to have around you individuals you NEVER would, if you weren't in these spaces....

It lowers the quality of people you have around you, which is the opposite of enriching your emotional, mental, and physical existence.
Crack, meth, synthetic opiates, etc...are superaddictive, and when people don't have their head on right (= MOST), then you may find that they value their relationship with that drug more than they value an orderly calm life, or their relations with you. When this happens you get dishonesty, and where theres intellectual dishonesty, there's theft, there's betrayals, there's bad things.

Do you really have enough time to fritter it away thusly? :?

 

[Creatus]

Without a doubt there are people who could use all sort of drugs including addictive ones without necessarily putting themselves in addictive danger. The reason I disagree with some of the repeated usage more addictive chemicals like opiates is because they get us high off closed doors while entheogens open them.

I've had my share of fun on amphetamines and opiates, but none of them has ever led to anything 'productive' in my life.

 

[Dantediv86]

It lowers the quality of people you have around you, which is the opposite of enriching your emotional, mental, and physical existence.
Crack, meth, synthetic opiates, etc...are superaddictive, and when people don't have their head on right (= MOST), then you may find that they value their relationship with that drug more than they value an orderly calm life, or their relations with you. When this happens you get dishonesty, and where theres intellectual dishonesty, there's theft, there's betrayals, there's bad things.

Do you really have enough time to fritter it away thusly? :?

I agree with you 100000000000% on this

 

[VerusDeus]

It's the user's choice to use those addictive narcotics. And indeed one has to have a strong personality to not get addicted to methampetamine or cocaine etc. But in the end most of those people who think they can handle those drugs end up quite addicted anyway. It's in our human nature, we are prone to addictions. Take love for example, love is just an addiction to a certain chemical released in the brain when you gaze at whom you love.

If you want to experiment with drugs like these, go ahead, and if you make it without getting addicted, way to go! But most of us are bound to succumb to addiction.

 

[pattern_req]

Though I can agree on many points, I am also a firm believer in neurochemical alchemy. The correct balance of substances can enhance a psychedelic experience to the point of a +4. The key in my estimation is infrequency of use. Doing anything everyday will quickly make it a pedestrian activity. The same can be said of chemical substances. Understanding the pros and cons of the material you are working with is also a must.

Be mindful, I am not advocating any hard drug usage in those who are ambivalent, but some of SWIM's best experiences have been on combinations. Opiates and MDMA when properly dosed can remove the entire speedy edge that can accompany X. A small dose of speed clarifies the visual aspect of mushrooms for SWIM and gives him energy to be active when shroom lethargy kicks in.

One must be cautious when approaching drug use of any kind, but with the right care, I am not entirely convinced as to the evils of "addictive" drugs.

 

[Meduzz]

I think that the psychonaut, who is mostly just used to psychologically addicitve substances like cannabis/ketamine/mdma... must still use physically addictive drugs with extreme caution.

I have never known cocaine, heroin,... being used in a responsible (apart from medicinal) way.

 

[Brugmansia]

Pattern_req, that's exactly my point I was trying to get across.

I don't want to link people to idea's, so take no potential idea's out of my topic based on the content.

At spice, such stories are typically the path one and his/her closest/relatives go when they fall down. Sorry to hear that you went through this phase as a whole, mate. I may have rosed the closed past.

I was just wondering who had tasted the 'dark decreasing side' as well.

I think that the psychonaut, who is mostly just used to psychologically addicitve substances like cannabis/ketamine/mdma... must still use physically addictive drugs with extreme caution.

That's a true as an assumption. Especially Ketamine and regular M use are relatively close neighbours of addictive drugs. Strongly depends on the environment where E and Ket is used and the user's motive.

Ket is used by psychonauts as a psychedelic and alternatives scenes, but also as an opiate/tranquilizer in the street scene. And it occurs pretty much everywhere on a low hidden scale.

M in the party scene is often going in combination with coke, alcohol and sometimes amphetamine; after people are partying for a longer while.

 

[Meduzz]

I was just wondering who had tasted the 'dark decreasing side' as well.

I have smelled it, never tasted it. A close friend of mine used to be a heroïn addict, until he cut of that past and i introduced him to mushrooms.
I also gave him some iboga, he said he only got a little sick from it...
But he has never done heroïn again. (As far as i know)

He uses cocaine every new year's eve, but he has done it again few days ago...
I hope he doesn't fall into that. I haven't seen him since new year.

 

[Guest]

in the past, i have done cocaine and heroin. i never got addicted, but i never said no. i don't think they are bad substances...they are easy to get hooked, but one should know their limits. they don't let you search for anything, they simply relax and calm you endlessly (heroin), or amuse you add infinitum (i never had that speed that almost every people say coke gives...it amused me, and made me think very much, but without searching...i felt so much security with everything i said). i never shot any yet, because it never felt right. the problem with those drugs is that they inflate your ego. but don't say they are bad, because they aren't...i have had many experiences with it in the past. saying that those are bad without trying them is being no better than the people that condemn psychedelics. try them and speak. they feel really nice, and there is no problem in feeling good, is it ? we can explore, and we can amuse ourselves. getting drunk does not make you a drunker, and snorting cocaine without being a junkie. many people say that SD is a deliriant, and not a psychedelic. there is relativity on this.
anyway, just my opinion.

edit: ontopic: i have tasted that dark side of the addicts. i met many of them, and did some dangerous things with them. i cannot say that they were very smart and had great ideas, but were terrific companions, just like in kindergarden

 

[Meduzz]

Every year i quit a few months smoking cannabis because of psychological addiction issues.
So i think it's best for me to stay away from more challenging addictions :wink:

 

[LiquidL]

I think that the profile of a psychonaut is quite different than a hard drug user. Psychedelic drugs provide an experience to explore the inner recesses of your mind. You can have fun and party with them too but there is always moments of self-reflection and introspection because this is the physiological action of this class of compounds. With hard, non-psychedelic substances I feel there is no introspection but rather just ego-inflation. And that ego-inflation is what gets people addicted. Many people addicted to these 'dark' substances have personal psychological issues which are temporarily repressed by the use of the substance causing an association to be created in the mind of the user of substance [ab]use and feeling 'good'. Then there is the physical dependency that comes from some of these classes of non-psychedelic drugs such as opiates that introduces an entirely different level of complication.
With psychedelic substances, physical addiction potential is zero and psychological addiction negligible. Try to habitually use mushrooms or LSD and you'd long get bored before u get addicted.
I think that there is a fat line between hard drug users and psychonauts and it's incumbent upon the psychonauts to distance and delineate themselves from the typical, shady drug addict. As a result from the War on Drugs, mainstream people tend to mix up all drug users as one united entity when nothing could be further from the truth. I think the biggest delineation within this group is between the psychonauts and generic, non-psychedelic drugs users and it's good if we educate the public (in our own private way) about this division.

 

[GOD]

LiquidL , i agree with you . But i would like to put it a little diferently . I think we should make a diference between psychenautics , the definition of wich also includes drug abuse , and start to think more about entheonautics . Psychenautic drug abuse is not the path to God , healing or enlightenment . I am sick of some people on the net who seem to be looking for easy ways to blow their minds away or make loads of money with dubious potions . The net is full of people advising others to poison themselves and / or fuck themselves up and its mostly fantasy storys or subjective reports from people who arent dead ........yet . I think that its time that we all decided what we want this forum to emphasise , love , light , healing , learning , growth . elightenment or drug abuse . Entheogenics or psychenautics .

 

[Meduzz]

Silly humans, discussing words that have no clear definition...

Psychonautics and entheogenics are just words that can be interpreted in thousands of ways. Blowing your mind away is one of the interpretations, and pathway to god and learning are other...

The abuse-use line lies in a different place in everyone. People use drugs for thousands of different uses.

I read this somewhere:
Who has lived longer: the heroin addict who lived 20 years with heroin and has experienced eternity, or the guy that lived 95 years on cereals and fruit?

 

[GOD]

Lets not split hairs . I think the definitions are quite clear , especialy with entheonautics wich can only be positive . Of cource entheonautics is a part of psychenautics but psychenautics also includes very many forms of negative practices . There is nothing wrong with getting blasted , or other forms of drug use wich can easily become drug abuse , so long as it stays positive . I think we should be trying to emphasise trying to understand eachother , love , light , healing , learning , growth and elightenment = be encourageing more positive use of drugs .

The answer to who lives longer is the 95 year old . Heroin adicts spend most of their time in semi coma , living in a little buble and miss most of their lives . The only time a junkie comes near to eternity is the torture that he experiences when he has no heroin and has cold turkey .

 

[????????]

I can't understand when people label some substances as "bad" or "evil" or whatnot and actually become frightened about them. Yes they can be addictive but that's your responsibility, not the plant's. Coke comes from a plant too like weed and etc, there's no inherent evil in it. I have done coke 4 times and it's just something to experiment a bit, like daytripper says, it feels good, why it has to be bad?

I also agree with the fact that a person who knows about entheogens and has an understanding of psychedelics is much better prepared to toy with these substances, ultimately the bottom line is that if you're going to use a drug you have to research it to know how to approach it. Maybe it's because us psychonauts have learned to respect mind altering substances and generally know that these are powerful stuff that one has to take seriously.

I'd like to try heroine, I'm not scared of it. I think it was on these forums that I read about some guy doing heroin once or twice a year... I've always remembered that because that guy knew how to play the game.

My only vice is ganja, and I'm constantly thinking about my approach to usage and frequency. I believe a truly enlightened person does not need any drug whatsoever. I remind myself this constantly so I know that I do not need it to enjoy life but of course, I'm far from having everything in my life balanced and close to some form of equilibrium.

So my point is there's nothing wrong with some coke/heroin/speed/etc here and there for me because it's not a part of my lifestyle. I have yet to see someone in the "dark side" of addiction but I think thanks to my education as a psychonaut I can allow myself to try and enjoy these so called "dangerous drugs".

on the subject... a big thanks to all of you who make this forum, it has really been a part of my aforementioned education

 

[LiquidL]

^^ To the above poster, I don't have Cyrillic keyboard so I can't type your name.

Read my post again. I am not saying that the addiction is the only factor that distinguishes non-psychedelic drug use from psychedelic drug-use. I am saying that the effects of non-psychedelic substances are such that the profile of an [ab]user of these substances is quite different than a tripper.
I know a lot of people that are ready to drink and do coke at a moment's notice but have no desire to use mushrooms or acid because they make them 'think' too much.
Addiction is a secondary delineation in my mind between these two classes of drugs but that also plays a role in defining the profile of the user. I'd rather be around trippers than meth freaks any day of the week.

 

[????????]

I am not saying that the addiction is the only factor that distinguishes non-psychedelic drug use from psychedelic drug-use.

Neither am I.

 

[Guest]

a person that uses psychedelics once or twice a week is not an addict ?
what about a person that uses hard drugs twice a year ?
let's clear this heroin stereotipe that we have...i am honest with you: i have done heroin and cocaine countless times. with cocaine, i think very much, and become quite philosophical, with thoughts on my head all the time. with heroin, i become very creative, and easily write a poem or discover a great song on my guitar. the "symptoms" of certain drugs are very different from person to person, as you all know. i could say that i highly dislike the persons that i meet on trance parties, and if they done acid, e or meth, for me it is the same. that herd behaviour stupidifies people too much. i also dislike heroin addicts, but i also dislike any kind of addicts. i have had great times with heroin, and i had even better times with acid. psychedelics are in another level, they open doors that cannot be closed again. hard drugs, on my experience, let me think about things, search for things that i already know, like cannabis.
all of we have done drugs. we know the effects of them, so, we should be the first ones not to preach and generalize. psychonauts have great "worship" for ego death. i have it too, i praise it more than anything in life, it is the most beautiful and intense thing that i have ever experienced. does that mean that i cannot have fun ? get with some of my friends, and be drunk, or snort some lines of coke ? let's not be purists. one thing does not implie the other, and neither does it cancel it. we can have more ego deaths after we have done heroin, and i don't think it inflates my ego that much. i am comfortable with all of them, and i don't think they influenced my past trips at all. one thing that we shall have all learned from the use of psychedelics is that we are free to choose our path. we are free to be good, we are free to know that our ego is a lie made by our relation to the world. why we work or study, then ? why we keep up this façade ? why are we feeding the machine, if all of this is a giant play ? we feed that lie, so why can't one feed the lie of the ego as well ? (even though i don't think my ego swells that much)
nowadays, i am far more interested in meditation. now, all of you that defend the purism, what do you have to say about this ? when one has reached higher levels of consciousness, shouldn't one try to reach it without any help from any substance ? when one has gone as far as the rabbit hole goes, and got out in the other side, what is the point of continuing their experiences with entheogens/psychedelics ?
addiction is in the eye of the beholder, and not in the mind of the user.


edit: a psychonaut is not just a psychedelic user!

 

[Dantediv86]

Daytripper rayer:
now don't go inflate your ego there
i'm just saying that i couldn't have ever state it better than that