Who thinks psychadelics are more than drugs?

[spice]

Many of the problems with science as practiced these days isn't inherent in science itself. A lot of times, the reality that science is tied to commerce and sponsored by multinational corporations, is the problem. When you have a company like Exxon, for instance, who is devoting millions to researching ways in which petrochemical fuels can be cracked to provide hydrogen....I mean, come on....why do that when you can get free, clean hydrogen from water?

But commerce dictates this approach.

I can respect what many of you say pertaining to blind faith in science. But let me ask you this:

Is your problem with science, per se, or THE WAY IT IS PRACTICED in these modern times?

Almost every negative thing one can say about it is due to the commercial aspect of its application.

One of you said that you feel sorry for those who 'put their complete trust in science'......point taken, but I feel equally sorry for those who do not give it the proper recognition and respect that is its due. People who trust only those non-scientific terms such as chakra, energy fields ( a scientific term,btw)
third-eye, spirit, etc, are called various things, such as esoteric loonies, wack-jobs, snake-oil salesmen, and a lot of other things such as 'primitive' and 'backwards'.

*********

Pertaining to the mind, etc......it is entirely possible for us to be, on the elemental level, purely carbon-based life-forms that were not created by a higher intelligence, other than the intelligence of the planet and the biosphere.....anyone who believes this INHERENTLY recognizes the power of science, whether they are conscious of it or not.

Science is merely the terminology we use to describe certain phenomenonae
we observe with our senses.

Obviously we are not capable of observing all the things there are to observe, so, because our perception is limited, so must our explanations of our perception be.

Balance is where it's at with these things.

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[maxfreakout]

they are *special* drugs, because they are connected with religion/mysticism

they are sacred sacraments

 

[Meduzz]

they are *special* drugs, because they are connected with religion/mysticism

they are sacred sacraments

What about LSD, MDMA, and other recent designer drugs?
And alcohol in christianity?

 

[maxfreakout]

What about LSD, MDMA, and other recent designer drugs?
And alcohol in christianity?

yes im talking about psychedelics/entheogens, ie drugs that elicit religious/mystical experiences


alcohol isnt one because it doesnt cause these kinds of experiences, its use in modern christianity is just a placebo

 

[GOD]

"Is your problem with science"

No their problem is one of intelligence , knowledge and honesty . That can be seen by the way they insist that their fantasys are fact with no evidence or sensible reasoning . And by the way they try to argue against what others say by saying that they believe in science and that it wasnt always right . Whats right is right and always was . The problem was that churches dictated what was right and that some science was wichcraft ( for example ) .

I remember someone here boasting about his intelligence being tested by experts several times and that he has an IQ of 87 !!!! A fucking chimp has an IQ of 90 .

 

[Sticki]

they are *special* drugs, because they are connected with religion/mysticism

they are sacred sacraments

What about LSD, MDMA, and other recent designer drugs?
And alcohol in christianity?

Magic Mushrooms and Cannabis have been here since the DAWN OF TIME and documented throught religous ceremonies for as long as people have been recording....

Man's knowledge grows as he evolves, He learns of other active compounds in the world. Also how to ISOLATE them.

Merely Progression.

P.S. LSD was used by loads of religous Christian people in a hippy settlement some time round the 60's or 70's(I Think around them years, I'll try find out more or can anyone else clarify what Im talking about 8) ), children as young as 13 were on film talking about LSD trips and the ability it gives the user to experience religious experiences. I dont personally consider MDMA a True Psychedelic. Other designer drugs may have a purpose, however we will never know if they do truely offer benefits to the majority of the religious community.

 

[mysticwarrior]

Spice, i begin to respect your more and more. I wish i could explain the things as you do on these subjects. I think your are right about what you are saying. It's all about balance!

Science is very usefull, i do not reject it, i regularly use scientific explanation to understand things. To be honest, i use what's useful to explain my theory's. Sometimes i use esoteric explanations and other times i use science, especially if both subjects explain the same thing. In my opinion science and spirituality are the same, but are an dualistic viewpoints on the same questions.

Well i wish i could explain in better, but there can be added so much more details that we could write books about it.

What i dislike about western society is the lack of use of the spiritual side of life. I guess this is stolen from us a long time ago(i read somewhere, when the western society was reformed by Constantine and his followers.

 

[restin]

it's simple....Science explains things causally - and even if something is falsified, it is a self-repairing system. But science has neither claims for Truth nor for Finality. It's all that simple. That ain't hard to understand.

 

[GOD]

Sticki , Tim Leary did experiments with religeous funtionarys and hallucinogens . Most of them had religeous experiences on it . I`ve also read about other priests , rabbis and budhist monks trying LSD . Ii`ve got a scientific paper where they did experiments with LSD on children as young as 9 years old .

 

[Sticki]

Thanks God, So "Drugs" or "Psychedelics" have been used in religion for a life changing experience in the users eyes.

So I conclued these "Psychedelics" in the eye of the user can be what ever they wish them to be and that in the correct hands and / or enviroment they can create life changing experiences also who is to say what an individual takes from a trip is not as real to that individual as any scientific concluesion in this elusive fabricated world.

 

[chimp_masta_flex]

Many of the problems with science as practiced these days isn't inherent in science itself. A lot of times, the reality that science is tied to commerce and sponsored by multinational corporations, is the problem. When you have a company like Exxon, for instance, who is devoting millions to researching ways in which petrochemical fuels can be cracked to provide hydrogen....I mean, come on....why do that when you can get free, clean hydrogen from water?

Actually thats mainly because they are looking for a method to produce hydrogen that requires less energy than the combustion of hydrogen produces. This cant be done from water, its conservation of energy so the hydrogen needs another source, OBVIOUSLY theyre doing it using petrochems in order to keep themselves in business but you still couldnt use water.

I half agree with sticky here, psychedelics can be used to create life-changing experiences and *cough* religious awakenings :roll: but that doesnt change what the chemical is. LSD is a drug, nothing more, nothing less. However the individual who consumes that drug is creating that experience, theres a quote, possibly by shulgin or hoffman that comes to mind along the lines of: 'how can such wonders be contained in such a simple organic molecule? Surely it is simply acting as a key for the brain to produce these experiences'
Thats totally not what hoffman/shulgin/whoever said but the sentiment is there.

Psychedelics are quite simply drugs, albeit incredibly interesting and possibly useful drugs.

 

[GOD]

Isnt it strange that we can all basicaly agree in this thread that drugs are drugs and that they can be good tools if used right . Also that a trip is a trip . But in every thread where people talk about machine elves it almost comes to violence when i say that . %hat people insist that machine elves actualy exist and that on DMT they realy do have contact to another physical dimension .

 

[chimp_masta_flex]

Thats possibly because people have their beleifs and unless in a situation where they expect to have them criticised, it can be quite offensive if you just tell them they're wrong. I'm incredibly sceptical myself but to be so certain and closed-minded that you can enter a thread specifically about the supernatural solely to tell them they're all wrong is daft.

The wise man knows only that he know nothing.
To say 'I KNOW there are no elves' is as dumb as to say 'I know there ARE elves'.
You don't KNOW that you dont connect to parallel dimensions, the mind is an incredibly complex thing, to claim you know anything about it is frankly wrong.

It's, in my opinion, naive and painfully optimistic to think that these things exist in any sense of the word, but no one can say with any certainty that they do or don't, especially not in a situation where they're goal is just to belittle someone because they have odd beliefs.

I daresay they're offended by you arrogance rather than your opinion.

 

[maxfreakout]

that on DMT they realy do have contact to another physical dimension .

nobody ever claimed that ^

the problem is that debating over whether something (like DMT elves) is 'real' or not is completely meaningless, because there is no way of defining what 'real' means

 

[spice]

Many of the problems with science as practiced these days isn't inherent in science itself. A lot of times, the reality that science is tied to commerce and sponsored by multinational corporations, is the problem. When you have a company like Exxon, for instance, who is devoting millions to researching ways in which petrochemical fuels can be cracked to provide hydrogen....I mean, come on....why do that when you can get free, clean hydrogen from water?

Actually thats mainly because they are looking for a method to produce hydrogen that requires less energy than the combustion of hydrogen produces. This cant be done from water, its conservation of energy so the hydrogen needs another source, OBVIOUSLY theyre doing it using petrochems in order to keep themselves in business but you still couldnt use water.

When I speak of generating hydrogen from water, I mean use the sun to effect the hydrolysis. This is literaslly free energy, and is outside the loop of conservation of energy, as is applicable to our endeavors.

The sun is producing lots of extra that we are wasting in our hard-headed efforts to profit off of everything.

Capitalism is stupid, when it is practiced to the detriment of the species and the biosphere.

....and it speaks a lot about the population to placidly sit by and allow companies to do it.

 

[chimp_masta_flex]

Personally i experienced that this dimension, this dream we are living is just as real as the other dimensions i have explored.

Yea they did.

If you want a definition of real then define it, arguing about such a vague concept will never work. That way the debate can continue as everyone understands what you are referring to when you say real.

Your using the religious/spiritual get out clause. 'You cant define god, therefore when ever you expose the flaws in one concept of god we can just switch to a new one.'

 

[chimp_masta_flex]

Is such hydrolysis possible? Even theoretically?

I'd be interested in a link to any literature :)

OOOOO the joys of photochemistry!

 

[ophiuchus]

When I speak of generating hydrogen from water, I mean use the sun to effect the hydrolysis. This is literaslly free energy, and is outside the loop of conservation of energy, as is applicable to our endeavors.

The sun is producing lots of extra that we are wasting in our hard-headed efforts to profit off of everything.

how does the sun affect hydrolysis?

 

[PsychedelicPirate]

The wise man knows only that he know nothing.
To say 'I KNOW there are no elves' is as dumb as to say 'I know there ARE elves'.
You don't KNOW that you dont connect to parallel dimensions, the mind is an incredibly complex thing, to claim you know anything about it is frankly wrong.

This.

I do think it's important for science to have. . . less of an agenda than it currently does but I still follow what they preach fairly closely. Just remember that a while ago, people though Columbus was naive and crazy for imagining the world to be round. ;D

 

[Jeniger]

Personally i experienced that this dimension, this dream we are living is just as real as the other dimensions i have explored.

Yea they did.

If you want a definition of real then define it, arguing about such a vague concept will never work. That way the debate can continue as everyone understands what you are referring to when you say real.

stereotype science bs
Why dont we see things for what they are and try to see the bigger picture instead of staying stuck on the definition., It gets u to much more interesting places.

Besides, epsecially with this kind of thinking of always defining, if i tell u my reality u will only see ur own reality reflected in it

dimenions for me are for example energies ,time ,light ,smell,music, silence, space, movement, feelings

the concept for dummies is that of the things mentioned above in an altered state are just as real as when u percieve them sober, there is nothing vague about this, just a personal opinion

I personally believe that we can only percieve a small spectrum of what is really going on, and i think its an interesting idea that psychedelics makes that spectrum bigger

Your using the religious/spiritual get out clause. 'You cant define god, therefore when ever you expose the flaws in one concept of god we can just switch to a new one.'

It says more about u then me that u involve religion or god. I did not intend to show a concept of god.
My point is that seeying natural psychedelics as drugs only exist in this western world for less than a decade.....,in the rest of the history it was so much more....its really easy to understand.

offcourse science has positive aspects, but never forget its only one side of the (western)story and we as the western civilisation know still so lesss, in its short young existance.