What is meaning of war against magic mushrooms in Amsterdam

[zezt]

I am really curious to explore the real meaning for this concerted drive by the Dutch government--obviously themselves in concert with the so-called 'war on drugs'--against entheogenic mushrooms!

I have heard the main movers are Christians? This would not be surprising, because in the history of Christianity they have been right in there going about our world and telling indigenous peoples they must stop ingesting various entheogens. There is good documented evidence how they oppressed ancient use of sacred mushrooms. YET, as I hope to uncover, there exists within Christianity a strong tradition of entheogenic mushroom use albeit in a secret way. For the initiates of the faith.

But we also know, or I know, that it isn't just Christians and atheists in this scene, but an Occultocracy too--behind the scenes, as it were. So I wanna keep an eye on them as well whilst looking at this recent prohibition.

I hope--though cannot promise anything--to encourage activism about this unjust move by people who have no right watsoever to tell us what we can and cannot ingest.

Activism can include all forms of things. I believe apathy comes about when people have an image of what activism 'must mean'. For example, some heavy duty activists who like takin it to the streets would poo poo the notion of writing a letter to people in power as protest against injustice. Though some obviously say they tried all that and thats reason they are on streets. true. But I still say to do both.

I would love it for all users here to write letters, and spread this around, and get shops to do leafelets for all customers, and put up flyers all round about it, AND protest on streets.

And ask them to explain clearly why they allow alcohol which causes so much violence and deaths and accidents, yet make up stories about shrooms. And what about psychiatric medication that causes suicides? Why dont they ban that?

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

OK, let's discuss the main problem: the mushroom peak is very intense. You can drink alcohol, even a couple of beers, without intense effects. But you can't really do mushrooms without experiencing intense effects. Likewise sigarettes are lethal, but smoking a couple of cigarettes generally won't cause immediate danger to you or your surroundings. Mushrooms make you go out of control for a couple of hours, much more out of control than being on MDMA or cannabis or a glass of wine. This isn't a Christian argument, it's just the way it is. So what is our answer to that?

 

[zezt]

As with alcohol where you can drink too much and become out of control, so you can with shrooms, if taking too many, though it is a vastly different 'out of control'. I personally feel VERY in control. great balance, and awareness. I have driven when bemushroomed and on LSD, and have managed it really well. great acuity. Whilst on booze, I am ashamed to say many many years back, the car was all aover, but thank god noone was hurt!!!
YET they see no harm with alcohol even though--at least where I am from, the UK--you can have youths attacking each other, and passers by in the city streets etc, falling down, being sick, running into the road putting road users at risk. becoming unconscious. Attacking ambulance people, and medical staff very seriously!!

Also suicides are often fuelled with drink. AND I am sure if we put our minds to it we will find MUCH evidence to show even more the terrible toll alcohol takes on our culture, and as well to people's health. For example more and more young people are drinking an alcoholic drink called ALCOPOPS, which is alcohol laced with fruit meant to seduce young people averse to the taste of booze. And they will drink this and become out of control, and potentially alcoholics and seriously damaging their health. Why isn't THIS banned

Didn't you say this Dutch Christian politician has LIED about a story he keeps using about danger of shrooms. Do you have evidence for that?

 

[mysticwarrior]

I would love it for all users here to write letters, and spread this around, and get shops to do leafelets for all customers, and put up flyers all round about it, AND protest on streets.

This are all things that did already happen. But it just was not good enough, and now we need to learn about, how to deal with that.. We still have this government for a while, and i am afraid that much more shit will follow the next years. And yeah, it are Christians. But there can be a lot of reason's why they banned the mushrooms. Of course you can easily make a typical conspiracy from the things that happen here at the moment, but there are more things going on in Holland. The politic really want to be a part of Europe, and it are not only christians who wanted to ban the mushrooms. The problem is that there to many reason's why they could ban the mushroom. Of course i have thought about the things you mention, but how can you really prove something like that. I mean you can't see inside there heads, i wish i could...

And finally if i think about this new law, i see that it also can produces positive things. For example, i bet, that the popularity of mushrooms users has grown at the moment rapidly(can be bad or can be good). Now you will also need to socialize and network to find some mushrooms or other good psychedelics. Because of all this i see also a possibility that some beautifully minds are going to unite. Before the ban this was not necessary, we could buy those mushrooms on a lot of places in Holland.

I really don't know anymore what to think about all that happend, i think time will tell more.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Didn't you say this Dutch Christian politician has LIED about a story he keeps using about danger of shrooms. Do you have evidence for that?

He lied about a particular incident. And yes there is evidence for that, two public statements, one in parliament and one on TV.

I was a member of the Hare Krishna movement for a couple of years (1995 - 1998) and they don't use drugs. Not even coffee or chocolate. They are against all 'artificial' forms of mind alteration. So, now imagine the Hare Krishna movement would become very popular, just as popular as Christianity is in the Netherlands, and we'd have a bunch of Hare Krishna's in parliament. They would want to close down the coffeeshops and ban shrooms too. No conspiracy, just the natural result of an idealogy. If Muslims got into parliament, and achieve a majority, they'd close all the bars and liquor stores, and perhaps the smartshops too. Again, it wouldn't involve a conspiracy, simply the ideology that only devotion should bring one closer to God, not a plant or substance.

But true, practically all religions can be traced back to drug cultures, who used either a mushroom or a combination of plants. And the Vatican may know about that, but the negative view on drugs is mainly fueled by ideology, communicated through scripture and sermon.

 

[Icelus]

^ +1

And as mysticwarrior said "it are not only christians who wanted to ban the mushrooms".

I really think it's more about ideologies then about belief-systems. But I think it's true that the right-wing politicians have this ideology because of the past filled with the demonisation of drugs. Put in motion by people with certain beliefs-systems. So indirectly it is all caused by people with certain belief-systems. What's the difference between belief-systems and ideologies anyway?

 

[zezt]

I would love it for all users here to write letters, and spread this around, and get shops to do leafelets for all customers, and put up flyers all round about it, AND protest on streets.

This are all things that did already happen. But it just was not good enough, and now we need to learn about, how to deal with that.. We still have this government for a while, and i am afraid that much more shit will follow the next years. And yeah, it are Christians. But there can be a lot of reason's why they banned the mushrooms. Of course you can easily make a typical conspiracy from the things that happen here at the moment, but there are more things going on in Holland. The politic really want to be a part of Europe, and it are not only christians who wanted to ban the mushrooms. The problem is that there to many reason's why they could ban the mushroom. Of course i have thought about the things you mention, but how can you really prove something like that. I mean you can't see inside there heads, i wish i could...

And finally if i think about this new law, i see that it also can produces positive things. For example, i bet, that the popularity of mushrooms users has grown at the moment rapidly(can be bad or can be good). Now you will also need to socialize and network to find some mushrooms or other good psychedelics. Because of all this i see also a possibility that some beautifully minds are going to unite. Before the ban this was not necessary, we could buy those mushrooms on a lot of places in Holland.

I really don't know anymore what to think about all that happend, i think time will tell more.

And you dont think religions are conspiracies?

"conspire
(k?n-sp?r') pronunciation
> Dictionary

v., -spired, -spir·ing, -spires.

v.intr.

1. To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action."

Ie., keeping the real meaning of the belief system from the general people, so only intiates know? THAT is to con-spire. A set of people who believe only they should know what is going on for 'the good' of....etc

And of course the banning of the shrooms is part of Nedderlands pressure to conform to the other 'sonspiracy' the 'war on drugs', so as to become the other conspiracy the planning and carrying out of the 'new world order'. It will be all part and parcel of this. As I have said before, I encourage integral vision rather than compartmentalized. Ie., you see how the supposedly separate institutions of the culture are working/conspiring togther. Indigenous people also encourage integral vision which is where I get lesson from

IS it positive to ban/prohibit? Was it so when they banned alcohol?
Wil the illegality of shrooms--as i recently read--people may go pick poisonous ones by mistake. Won't have the accepted support system that Amsterdam may have had with it being more open

Why are uou just accepting this fuck up of your liberty?

 

[Icelus]

^ What makes you think he accepts that?

 

[zezt]

Didn't you say this Dutch Christian politician has LIED about a story he keeps using about danger of shrooms. Do you have evidence for that?

He lied about a particular incident. And yes there is evidence for that, two public statements, one in parliament and one on TV.

I was a member of the Hare Krishna movement for a couple of years (1995 - 1998) and they don't use drugs. Not even coffee or chocolate. They are against all 'artificial' forms of mind alteration. So, now imagine the Hare Krishna movement would become very popular, just as popular as Christianity is in the Netherlands, and we'd have a bunch of Hare Krishna's in parliament. They would want to close down the coffeeshops and ban shrooms too. No conspiracy, just the natural result of an idealogy. If Muslims got into parliament, and achieve a majority, they'd close all the bars and liquor stores, and perhaps the smartshops too. Again, it wouldn't involve a conspiracy, simply the ideology that only devotion should bring one closer to God, not a plant or substance.

But true, practically all religions can be traced back to drug cultures, who used either a mushroom or a combination of plants. And the Vatican may know about that, but the negative view on drugs is mainly fueled by ideology, communicated through scripture and sermon.

The Hare Krishnas....? LOL, me too! MANy moons ago, when 17, I actually became hooked on them, and even joined their temple in the middle of winter in Edinburgh. FREEZING. And I know what you mean. They were so anti-body, and thought mushrooms were evil and only grew in graveyards. true mycophobes! So yeah, thank KALI they aint in!!! haha

But I think it is naive to imagine that these 'Christians' are just expressing their righteous indignation against 'demonic substances', though will be part of it. I feel that like other politics, they are frontmen, and behind scenes is drive to fit Holland in with the New World Order and plan to take more and more liberties away

Even if you are to argue that Holland has always been more independent. The fact of this New World order is that a more and more centralized power, comprised of a few people, will dictate to everyone how they must live....or else. And we know that the 'war on drugs' is one of their major central scam policies. It preceeded their other evil scam policy of 'war on terror'. BOTH aimed at attacking people, taking away liberties.

This is why we really need now to take the gloves off and really expose their tricks. But we can only do this when we get on same wavelength, see whats at stake is we just do nothing, and allow them to close in the walls more and more, poisoning nature.

 

[Sticki]

OK, let's discuss the main problem: the mushroom peak is very intense. You can drink alcohol, even a couple of beers, without intense effects. But you can't really do mushrooms without experiencing intense effects. Likewise sigarettes are lethal, but smoking a couple of cigarettes generally won't cause immediate danger to you or your surroundings. Mushrooms make you go out of control for a couple of hours, much more out of control than being on MDMA or cannabis or a glass of wine. This isn't a Christian argument, it's just the way it is. So what is our answer to that?

My answer to that is, I myself have sufferd black outs from excessive drinking of alcohol. This led to rampage's of violence and deleria, I have never had this happen on mushrooms. However I respect mushrooms alot more and I am far more aware of the psychilogical effects of mushrooms.

If we had a proper drug education with no bull shit and stopped treating every one the same, had courses with degree's allowing handling and cultivation I think alot of the misconception could be sorted and we could get rid of idiots that make the current system not feasible.

Its up to us what we take, As long as we dont push it on others, No???

 

[mysticwarrior]

Zest, i think you just have to live here, to understand what i am saying. Like i said before, there is more stuff going on in Holland.

1. To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action."

If you want to see it that way, yeah you could call it a Conspiracy if you want, but i think those Christian bastards, are just fucking lunatics who have there minds between there balls instead of between there ears.

IS it positive to ban/prohibit? Was it so when they banned alcohol?

I am someone who believe's in duality, i believe that what's above is also below. So everything the politic does, has a good and a bad outcome. It does not matter what ever happen, there is always an opposite reaction.

Of course i am mad because this Mushrooms ban, but i don't think anything would change because of it. The government will only hunt down smartshops who are selling mushrooms or people who are growing massively mushrooms. Till now, the government don't gives a fuck if i have some mushrooms in my house and using them ones in a while. They won't even know.

IS it positive to ban/prohibit? Was it so when they banned alcohol?
Wil the illegality of shrooms--as i recently read--people may go pick poisonous ones by mistake. Won't have the accepted support system that Amsterdam may have had with it being more open

What do you think about all those tourist coming to Amsterdam eating mushrooms and ending up in Hospital? What i said, everything has an opposition. Lucky enough, we have in Holland not to much dangerous Mushrooms, so people can make them selves the most time, only sick, because they picked the wrong ones.

I really think it's more about ideologies then about belief-systems. But I think it's true that the right-wing politicians have this ideology because of the past filled with the demonisation of drugs. Put in motion by people with certain beliefs-systems. So indirectly it is all caused by people with certain belief-systems. What's the difference between belief-systems and ideologies anyway? Smile

Exactly

 

[HeartCore]

OK, let's discuss the main problem: the mushroom peak is very intense. You can drink alcohol, even a couple of beers, without intense effects. But you can't really do mushrooms without experiencing intense effects. Likewise sigarettes are lethal, but smoking a couple of cigarettes generally won't cause immediate danger to you or your surroundings. Mushrooms make you go out of control for a couple of hours, much more out of control than being on MDMA or cannabis or a glass of wine. This isn't a Christian argument, it's just the way it is. So what is our answer to that?

Out of control? I've never ever felt out of control, not even with a massive dose.

The Christian arguments against it are 'drugs' and 'sorcery' btw.

 

[zezt]

Zest, i think you just have to live here, to understand what i am saying. Like i said before, there is more stuff going on in Holland.

1. To plan together secretly to commit an illegal or wrongful act or accomplish a legal purpose through illegal action."

If you want to see it that way, yeah you could call it a Conspiracy if you want, but i think those Christian bastards, are just fucking lunatics who have there minds between there balls instead of between there ears.

IS it positive to ban/prohibit? Was it so when they banned alcohol?

I am someone who believe's in duality, i believe that what's above is also below. So everything the politic does, has a good and a bad outcome. It does not matter what ever happen, there is always an opposite reaction.

Of course i am mad because this Mushrooms ban, but i don't think anything would change because of it. The government will only hunt down smartshops who are selling mushrooms or people who are growing massively mushrooms. Till now, the government don't gives a fuck if i have some mushrooms in my house and using them ones in a while. They won't even know.

IS it positive to ban/prohibit? Was it so when they banned alcohol?
Wil the illegality of shrooms--as i recently read--people may go pick poisonous ones by mistake. Won't have the accepted support system that Amsterdam may have had with it being more open

What do you think about all those tourist coming to Amsterdam eating mushrooms and ending up in Hospital? What i said, everything has an opposition. Lucky enough, we have in Holland not to much dangerous Mushrooms, so people can make them selves the most time, only sick, because they picked the wrong ones.

I really think it's more about ideologies then about belief-systems. But I think it's true that the right-wing politicians have this ideology because of the past filled with the demonisation of drugs. Put in motion by people with certain beliefs-systems. So indirectly it is all caused by people with certain belief-systems. What's the difference between belief-systems and ideologies anyway? Smile

Exactly

Try and search 'Issac Bonewitz invention of duality'. He is a magickian and gives this great explanation of how the mindcontrol of duality has taken over civilization.
IF we take the attitude, as that whatever the suits do has some good to it, we might as well join them right now!! WHAt good came out of Hiroshima? What?
Nothing is what. Please dont tell me soemthing good came from it. I could go and rape a 4 year old kid and spin you some 'good' came from it, like errrm, it made her mum express her emotions.....?!

So no, I am not buying that. I am seeing that people who think they can do what they want keep taking and taking and are poisoning everything and making millions of species extinct etc. We HAVE to stand up against this. Who else will? Surely people who know psychedelic experience, especially, must be nearer feeling this?

back to about the main subject. As you will know there is finally--VERY SLOWLY--a resurrgence of psychedelic therapies happening, VERY slowly and drowned in bearucracy, and 'scientific methody' stuff, but we also need to encourage freedom for spiritual exploration, which means not just accepting that ONLY the medical establishment is allowed to have sole authority over who can and cannot have access to psychedelics. It is our rights as humans to be able to have access to ecstasy (not the drug but the real meaning of term) and spirituality!
WHy should we be happy with being yet again forced underground?

 

[tryptonaut]

The alcohol argument doesn't really work, because there are a lot of prohibitionists who would probably love to prohibit alcohol as well. Only they know they just couldn't do that (yet!) because alcohol has such a broad acceptance throughout all layers of society.

In my town (and other German towns as well) they have just prohibited the selling of alcohol at gas stations if you are not there by car - so the party people on their way to the clubs can't load up with alcohol as easily as before (I think there were complaints about groups of drunk youth hanging around the gas stations at night). So, this now led to the paradox situation that, if I live right next to a gas station and want to buy a bottle of beer, I have to take my car and drive there, even if it is only 10m from my door, or they won't sell me a bottle of beer.

The prohibitionists are always out there to raise their index fingers, call "it endangers our kids" and ban everything they consider "bad". So don't give them the "alcohol is legal but it's more dangerous" argument too often, or you'll soon be standing in front of empty beer coolers at the supermarket...

 

[zezt]

The alcohol argument doesn't really work, because there are a lot of prohibitionists who would probably love to prohibit alcohol as well. Only they know they just couldn't do that (yet!) because alcohol has such a broad acceptance throughout all layers of society.

In my town (and other German towns as well) they have just prohibited the selling of alcohol at gas stations if you are not there by car - so the party people on their way to the clubs can't load up with alcohol as easily as before (I think there were complaints about groups of drunk youth hanging around the gas stations at night). So, this now led to the paradox situation that, if I live right next to a gas station and want to buy a bottle of beer, I have to take my car and drive there, even if it is only 10m from my door, or they won't sell me a bottle of beer.

The prohibitionists are always out there to raise their index fingers, call "it endangers our kids" and ban everything they consider "bad". So don't give them the "alcohol is legal but it's more dangerous" argument too often, or you'll soon be standing in front of empty beer coolers at the supermarket...

As I said in earlier post, it would be completely stupid to ban alchohol. It cannot be done, and that was proved in America!!! BUT they have to be shown up about how they push alcohol on young people who get into all kinds of violence, dangerous driving, and damage to health, etc and yet see fit to completely ban mushrooms which is a compltely different dimension altogther. its just wrong, and we mustn't stand for it! is what i am saying

 

[Psychostain]

OK, let's discuss the main problem: the mushroom peak is very intense. You can drink alcohol, even a couple of beers, without intense effects. But you can't really do mushrooms without experiencing intense effects. Likewise sigarettes are lethal, but smoking a couple of cigarettes generally won't cause immediate danger to you or your surroundings. Mushrooms make you go out of control for a couple of hours, much more out of control than being on MDMA or cannabis or a glass of wine. This isn't a Christian argument, it's just the way it is. So what is our answer to that?

you can drink couple of beers and feel in control... lol they should just make mushrooms "lighter" so that you couldn't just much a handful of "hawaiians" in a blink of an eye and fall into the canal i think it takes a bit of effort/sheer stupidity to accidentally OD on philosophers stones or mexicans.
and if they OD on mushrooms because their judgement was impaired due to too many beers, itn't the beer the bad guy then?

 

[Forkbender]

^don't blame the drugs. (that includes alcohol).

 

[restin]

^drugs don't do drugs, people do drugs.

 

[Psychostain]

^don't blame the drugs. (that includes alcohol).

The point was that apparently the cristian people in the dutch parliament do blame drugs.

 

[Forkbender]

^but you blame the alcohol when a drunk person takes mushrooms and does something stupid. Or did I misread what you said?