The wrong kind of drugs?

[Psychedelic Eric]

What kind of society do we live in when on the one hand it preaches peace, freedom and humanity then locks people up for doing nothing more than enjoying a private party with a few responsible friends?

This is exactly the case when a person decides to have a party and gets caught taking the ‘wrong’ kind of drugs - drugs the nanny state think we need protecting from. Who the fuck are they to say what’s good and bad for us?

I’m sure most of us realise that selling heroin and the likes on the street is harmful to the individual and society but what about those of us who like to smoke a nice bit of weed or drop the occasional trip instead of taking the harmful yet legal drugs such as alcohol or tobacco? Why the fuck should we risk getting locked up just because we don’t conform to the values of mainstream society?

Maybe off licence, bar and pub owners should do a victim awareness course and what about Judges, do they consider the wider implications of their actions? Do they really understand the effect a prison sentence can has on the families of their victims?

All forms of punishment are evil because they add to the total amount of human suffering. The world is a worse place the more evil there is in it and perhaps the more suffering.

“Prison is the worst thing our society can do to you, it kills you physically and psychologically – it’s a living death, like being buried alive. It’s like slow torture, having to watch, helpless, as life slips away, together with everything you care about. That’s how it is for most prisoners; many lose their families, homes, jobs, savings and possessions, even before their case comes to trial.”

this has to change

 

[BrainEater]

well the problem is that a lot of people don't even seem to think for/by themselves. they simply do the programs that in their little and unfair worlds are supposed to be right. so this is a retarded excuse, really... it's like saying "ah yeah we are just doing our job, so it's alright." it's retardism par excellence, maybe in the sense like "the end justifies the means", which basically is possibly a very fascist concept to follow. :shock: :x

and yeah you recognized that they think in terms of conformity. what is different and "unknown", for them automatically seems to be wrong. in this regard they certainly haven't got a sense of "real empathy". because these are people that are basing their worldview etc etc on ignorance and prejudices. we could say that such people can't even see reality as it is. they try to adjust everything to their own limited way of perceiving reality. they only see what they want to see kind of thing or so. :paranoid:

i would dare to say, that a lot of people that are like that, don't really know what they are doing. that's why they always seek for justification for what they are doing. there is a difference between simple explanation and justification. beware of people that display this kind of behaviour. i think they don't want us to wake up. :-x :\ :roll:
and as far as i can see, on a subconscious level, a lot of them expose themselves, because they can't disguise their nescience to an open mind with open eyes etc etc. :smirk: :retard:

so when we can recognize that they don't know what they are doing, we can simply stop to take them so serious, or at least not take them as serious as they want us to take them. we simply have to stop buying their shit, to put it simple.
what follows to this is that they want to give you the feeling that you are dependant on them or shit like that.
i tell you don't swallow this kind of fear-deception-propaganda. fear is the power of the dark side.
we need only to be responsible for what we do, and we know what we do, we don't need others to tell us that. 8)

so the problem is when we show them who they are, a lot of them wouldn't even want to see it. which doesn't really suprise me.... but yeah when society will evolve towards more empathy and community senses, then the pressure with which it can work against individuals will not only be primitive violence on various levels based on the ignorant mind/perception/paradigms etc etc, but then the chance for real evolution opens up. because we can learn from each other and ourselves, but only if we drop the compulsive ego identification. we probably should destroy our ego before it destroys us, so to say...
well in the "modern society/civilisation" this is the current paradigm, but it's misleading deception.
we have to look inside of ourselves and make the change there and not endlessly search in the outside and blame something/someone there. because this doesn't help us and it isn't a real solution.
real change must come from within... :!: :idea:

All forms of punishment are evil because they add to the total amount of human suffering. The world is a worse place the more evil there is in it and perhaps the more suffering.

hmm i don't think i can really agree with this. the question is whether people are willing and able to learn from their mistakes or not. well but yeah what for one is a mistake for the other is maybe not etc etc...
and the other question would surely be, how can we even judge with certainty?? the idea here is, that what can often happen at some point or so is that people start to mistake authority for truth. the risk is to give in to fear and not be able to use your own brain anymore.
suffering is like a teacher that can remind us of what mistakes we may be doing. when we are willing to look at the mistakes and learn....
and if there is evil, this can also be seen as negative examples, which can indirectly point us into the right direction.
the potential for transformation is missunderstood and underestimated a lot. i think it will get worse until people wake up
to what they are really doing to themselves/others. :shock: :?

drugs are tools. what does it mean that they don't want us to use the tools? partly it maybe means that they don't really know about them and hence can't "responsibly" make them available to us, because they think that we are stupid and irresponsible
and they can't seem to provide the proper knowledge/information/education.
and it seems that they don't want to make it easy for us, so they can remain in control etc etc...
well partly the program they have with drugs does make sense, but to a relative great part it's simply delusion and deception also... so we shouldn't subscribe to that kind of "thinking". it's like a retarded kindergarden level or so... lol
but in some sense it certainly means that they don't want that we gain consciousness/awareness with ease.
because that would mean they would lose their power of fear-control etc etc.... i think it's definately stupid
to think about stupid people, because it gives them power. and well... stupidity has had more than enough power
already, obviously...

but well nature should be freely available, but preferable with the right information/education etc etc...
i mean like... first "they" (the white man, christians, nazis, capitalists, etc etc... get my point?) destroy
nature and then they want to forbid us nature. and then they act as if it's right what they do etc etc...
well lol... i think i'm getting a bit into ranting mode now....to sum it up in a simple way...basically,
we the population simply have to work together against that kinds of fascism or so...
have you noticed how in some way we are also being played out against each other??? think about it...
i hope it's not too much text and sufficiently understandable or so... thanks for reading!!! :P :) :D



peace

 

[Psychedelic Eric]

Interesting comments.

Humanity could make great progress if people learned to control their egos and remain objective. It’s foolish to show prejudice against another person just because they hold different values or beliefs but its worse to show prejudice just because a person look different, that’s madness. I like meeting people with different backgrounds and beliefs to my own, there is so much to learn by listening to another point of view, we dont have to agree just listen and take on board. It’s our differences that make the human race intresting, it would be such a bland existence if we were all exactly the same.

The existence of evil or not will probably remain an arguing point but it is true that sometimes we have to choose the lesser evil to avoid a greater evil. This is the argument the criminal justice systems likes to use and abuse when they dish out punishments. Here in the UK, the lesser evil can be used as a defence against possession of cannabis.

Freedom is being allowed to sing in my bath as loudly as will not interfere with my neighbour's right to sing a different tune in his.

 

[BrainEater]

well sometimes it seems very much, that it's only about money. the justice system needs to make money, too etc etc...
so yeah... it isn't a surprise that if their system is based on retardism, that this is what they want to propagate to us.

the question is do we swallow the stupid propaganda pills or not? i think it's alright if those people live in their little and unfair
worlds, but do they "really" have to drag us into that? i dare to say that i prefer to break out of such prisons. why should i have to choose mental imprisonment. no thanks lol... :x :evil:

it's like they think what they do is right and can't accept another perspective or so. that's retardism par excellence...
people that can see everything only one-sided. but we are in a digital age now. why don't they evolve in terms of
recognizing the science of consciousness? well because their mental paradigm is the 3D world. but the real world
is much deeper etc etc....

well anyway i like how robert anton wilson puts it: " we SHOULD be able to decide what we put into our bloodstream."

hasn't the example of holland shown how legalisation can contribute to more peace and less criminality in society???

how can people be so ignorant.... it's so sad... maybe we could be much more evolved by now if we weren't held back so much
in the development and evolution of our consciousness. but well if they want to trick us, it should be justified that we are
allowed to trick them, too... everything else would simply too obviously be retarded.


can you see how at least to some extent "they" try to disguise and hide their classism and racism? wake up man.. :roll: :?

have fun singing lol... :D



peace

 

[KrispedKritter]

Humanity could make great progress if people learned to control their egos and remain objective.

Right, good luck with that. To "control" your ego, first you have to recognize it, and that would mean stepping outside of that (out of your mind!), which most people won't do throughout their lives unless they come in contact with direct spirituality (REACH out and TOUCH faith), near-death experiences (in which case they very often can't process the experience and fall into depression) or psychedelics. What we "need" is a global consciousness raising apparatus of some sort, preferably viral. Look at the content of the internet: all the people spending time on 9gag, funnyjunk, facebook so forth and so on are right there with their cortal nexus directly tapped into by the internet, just waiting for the right kind of (psilocybe) virus to afflict them with a direct experience of consciousness.

Anything else, at least in the western hemisphere, is too slow and would be too easy to shoot (literally) down.

As far as anything else, I agree with BrainEater. The world is as it is, and you can't give in to fear, because then you will be swallowed by it and become part of it. Play your own game. Make your own customs and culture. Create your own reality, and invite others to join you and help them create their own. The effect will trickle to others and will spread, sooner or later. Unless we're put in prison for smoking a joint, in which case I would have time to finish my novel and get a resort (maybe not such a nice one, though...) for extensive meditation.

Another thing you can do is move about in the world. In two and a half weeks I'm leaving this fucked-up-place that is Sweden (honestly, it's "safe-as-houses" [or at least used to be] if you want to produce kids, but anything else? It's a fucking a mind-eraser) to move to Prague, Czechia. Already got a job, got a band, getting an apartment, and 20 plants of grass (5, legally, per person in a household), mushrooms (40 pieces per person), salvia (dunno the exact legal status, but ALL drugs are basically decriminalized to some extent, and the police really doesn't care as it has more important work to do), and some HBW. Next thing I need to learn how to extract is that precious spice from Mimosa Hostilis ...

It's a way of running, yeah. But not from the world, just from the trapped-in ordinary reality of a really FUBAR'd place like Sweden. A friend of a friend was taken by police at 7.30 am, on his way by foot to the train station to go to work, because he "fit the profile", ie, he either had some rasta colours or dreadlocks. Here, come with us to take a pisstest. Fucked.

Don't give in to them, but don't be arrogant, either. Don't hate them, love them for their ignorance, but don't play their game.

 

[Psychedelic Eric]

I agree, who needs a Nanny state telling us what to do, its so fucking patronising. Im a mature adult and I want to make my own informed decisions about these things.

A global consciousness raising apparatus would be a great way of getting people to confront their ego. The problem is many people are not interested in the greater good, they are far too self absorbed and refuse to move beyond the boundaries of their own little bubble. A controlled psychedelic experience provides a quick and easy way of seeing beyond the ‘self’ but it can be argued that the religious experience works better because it requires prolonged effort, the rewards are different to when an individual takes a psychedelic drug.

I have personal knowledge of both the psychedelic experience and a personal ‘epiphany’ through retreat and spiritual exercises, both are powerful psychological tools that produce an awareness beyond normal consciousness. I know which I prefer... dropping a trip alone at night is way more fun and can give some very deep personal insights but it isn’t suitable for the mentally vunerable and does not replace a period of spiritual devotion.

Good luck with your move to Prague, it sounds a cool place. Let me know how you get on.
Peace

 

[KrispedKritter]

Having read some of Stan Grof's work, on and notwithstanding to LSD psychotherapy and spiritual practices (also with Holotropic Breathwork), it would seem that the "spiritual awakening" experience happens quite often, but that many people just shove it to the side and call it a "moment of insanity" or somesuch ("oh, yanno, i just went nuts there for a moment and saw some things and heard a voice telling me that i'm doing it wrong, but it was just a moment, so that's alright; I'm sure my current state of depression has nothing to do with it!"). This would lead to a spiritual crisis, something that is just now being recognized as an actual thing of its own (with many supposed symptoms of mental disorders falling in under it) in the world of psychology.

I think that we really need is an Archaic Revival (to go all McKenna on you...), to bring back the role of the psychedelic shaman. The actual psychedelic experience of dropping some acid, mushrooms, or whatever, surely isn't for everyone, but everyone should have a person able to go into these deep shamanic spaces to help someone out through a crisis (something that, apparently, psychiatry very often fails to do, such is in my case when I woke up to a nihilistic worldview at the age of 15. I was quite close to ending myself several times, yet psychiatry didn't really get to any points, given though that I wasn't too open during my sessions).

Of course, for something like this to happen, for people to actually allow themselves to be seen as people in need and to find help with some groovy people on the hillsides, we need a significant change as it is (not quite the paradigm-shift of, "hey everybody, we're all one"). Again, we come back to the problem of ego. Ego's hold is just wayyyyy too strong in a general sense today, and it is constantly being nurtured by societies. Religiousness comes into play here, but honestly, I don't know if it's for better or for worse.

At one time when I was discussing with something/someone through Godhead, I burst out laughing at the notion of GOD (ie, Christian GOD). For any deity to require that you bow before his glory... Can you think of anything more depersonalizing and diminshing than that? It's a joke, really. It's a dangerous joke. And people feed it, every day.

Personally, I think Jesus went through a spiritual awakening/ego death, coming into an personal reality of heaven and hell. After my own ego-death experience (prior to the mentioned Godhead discussion with whoever that was, or maybe it was just the unconsciousness in general, who knows?) I very much dug some of what Jesus had to say, linked to the Tibetan Book of the Dead. I don't think Jesus spoke of Heaven and Hell as places beyond death; I think he spoke of Heaven and Hell as reality created post-ego-death. This goes well together with the Book of the Dead, and many other views of religions. I haven't really delved deeper into it than musing, as it would make me read more holy scriptures... And honestly, Irunno if I feel like reading, say, the Bible. It seems like a really nasty text, á la the Bhagavad Gita.

Thanks for the luck-wishing, I'm sure it'll be splendid. I'll be sure to keep posting things actively on here, as well as posting a by-me proposed podcast site from the commune I'll be living in. Times are a changing for me, hopefully for you too.

Peace.

 

[Psychedelic Eric]

I’m familiar with the nihilistic worldview, particularly the philosophical idea of “A brain in a vat”.

Perhaps the different world religions interpret what is a single spiritual truth but are influenced by factors such as culture, geography, history, language etc. to form different beliefs and points of view. Maybe it’s a mistake to try and interpret spiritual reality and explain it using words and thoughts. It might be better to try and experience spiritual reality for what it is, on its own terms and not attempt to clarify it in our own Earthly terms or to indoctrinate others with our opinions and ideas on the matter. For me, it’s a private thing about making personal contact, but I still like to hear what others believe in.

I would also like to see the return of the psychedelic shaman, it would be cool and I think the world would benefit. I doubt if it would change the world but it might change some people’s attitude to the use of drugs...in time.

Until then I suppose we have to get used to the fact that we don’t live in a free world (I don’t for sure, but that will soon change!!) and adjust accordingly. This doesn’t mean we have to accept the attitude and opinions of those in authority who want to bully us into their way of thinking.

 

[KrispedKritter]

If anything, the return of the society-accepted role of a Shaman would allow for change, maybe not cause it.

I'm a big fan of Buddha's Golden Silence, but even so, I do love discussing mystical matters with like-(or-not!)-minded people. It's all groovy to me. :P

 

[ophiuchus]

"societally accepted"

not everybody respects the shaman in tribal communities... there is a lot of mysticism around them. some respect them, some fear them, and many (i dare say in most cases) simply do not understand what the shaman does at all. the shaman does not stay in a village, villagers must travel to find them, thus promoting even further the idea that the shaman is one who must be sought out, not simply provided for all. the shaman is a hermit by nature and by role.

i don't believe that shamanism will ever become a "societally accepted" role; for it is that very fringe that makes it what it is.

 

[KrispedKritter]

Thanks for the correction, now I'll be societally accepted.

The things you say are true, but even so, you don't see (in general...) tribes hunting their hermit shamans down. They tend to allow them to stay within some proximity to their village, to feed them, to seek them out for help in all manners of disputes and illnesses. And often when catastrophe strikes, they come in to the village, and people listen to them. My family came home from Thailand not long ago and told a story of how a village they were in, that was struck by the tsunamis, went up to hide in the mountains a few days before the waves started to build up, because "an old wise man came and told them to, because he had seen it coming." That's the kind of respect that we're lacking today in our society; we have no old wise men to look to; we've replaced them with doctors, scientists et c, many of whom aren't even respected by the people who need their help.

Come a (revealed) spiritual crisis on a massive scale (revealed as in people noticing what is going on as we speak...), people would look for help where they could get it. Those who are looking nowadays try and find some help with psychiatry and government-issued help, but there are many who do not find any help at all and are just passed along between psychiatry models and "New Age" tricksters. Not saying that all the new agers are tricksters, but having gone to the largest "Spiritual and Mystiscism" fair in Sweden (quite stoned, fully open to the energy flows there...) I can definately say that a helluva lot of them are, at least around here.

The thing that strikes me about the "wise old men", or shamans, (at least the ones I've had the opportunity to meet) is that they're basically compassionate old men/women (á la Ram Dass, all with their own quirks), something that the squares-in-need seem to take to. If the old and enwizened are compassionate, people might actually listen to them and their advice, something that might prove to be critical to overcome an individual spiritual crisis.

Obviously, we'd have to go through fundemantal changes on the level of laws, and some cultures/countries would be more or less open to these kind of people. Sweden, for example, has a long history of Healers and Wise Men, although today they're scoffed at as hoaxes. We still even have our own indian tribe (the Same-people) with their own shamans and reindeer mounts and whatever...

 

[Psychedelic Eric]

Ophiuchus - It’s interesting that the Shaman was/is not respected by all members of the community, why is this? Perhaps the community viewed the shaman as a mumbo jumbo speaking weirdo they couldn’t understand or maybe they were afraid of the shaman’s supernatural powers? Can anyone explain this?

Maybe a modern Shaman would be a person who practices a technique of religious ecstasy through meditation, prayer and psychedelic drugs enabling them to reach a state of religious fervor. This altered state would allow them to act as intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the spirit worlds and using these “contacts” they are able to treat ailments by mending the soul. Not much different to the traditional Shaman or the modern day faith healer.

I see no reason why a modern version of the shaman shouldn’t exist but somehow the public view needs to change for them to be accepted. Judging by the attitude of modern society towards such matters, this is unlikely to happen; they would still be viewed as outsiders and “new age” weirdoes by the masses.

Is there a way to overcome this? How would such a person earn the respect of their community?

 

[KrispedKritter]

Maybe a modern Shaman would be a person who practices a technique of religious ecstasy through meditation, prayer and psychedelic drugs enabling them to reach a state of religious fervor. This altered state would allow them to act as intermediaries or messengers between the human world and the spirit worlds and using these “contacts” they are able to treat ailments by mending the soul. Not much different to the traditional Shaman or the modern day faith healer.

Spot on, for all kinds of shamans. The thing is that there is no "one-type-of-shaman", they're all individuals (much more so than the other individual person) and each community has its own take on it, especially considering said community's own use of drugs and spiritual practice/praxis. It's all so diverse, it's really tough to say why and how (hence, anthropology).

In a modern sense, in order to gain the "respect" or whatever you would like to call it of the fellow man, I think the shaman would just have to be able to be there to actually help, from day 1. I don't consider myself a shaman (though the thought lingers there, especially considering "my" own mind-space and experience already), but I make sure to make it known to the people I care for (all people who are truthful, really) that I am here, if they want to talk (the Beatles come into mind, "you can talk to me, you can talk to me, you can talk to me if you're lonely you can talk to me // you don't know what it's like to listen to your fears" -- Hey Bulldog), and talk I do. I've already helped people, and did before my psychedelic voyages began, and this is recognized amongst the people who have sought me out. If you make yourself a stationary person of such stature, ie, a healer/shaman, even a hermit/outcast, then such word would spread if you keep practicing and helping. I think that's the way to go about it...

...problem is that as word spreads, all will hear it, sooner or later, including "authorities". Who, I'm sure, wouldn't take kindly on someone who meets with people, talk to them and smoke massive bowls in order to see into and beyond them, which I do. Other than a global change in consciousness and awareness around the subject of "drugs", I'm not sure how to tackle this. There was talk (I don't know if it was on here, or somewhere else before I found this place) of a Psychonaut License, something that I could very much see happening in a more-liberal-yet-academic future. Another take on it, one which I was aiming for (and still might, not sure, I hear music that pulls at me instead...) is getting the right academic papers to actually help people, a BA/MA/P.hD in psychology/psychiatry et c.

I don't know man. I don't know.

 

[Psychedelic Eric]

its our duty to provide them healthy and friendly environment so that they can easily share their view and problems with their parents.

The whole issue of religion and children is a touchy one, but children and drugs is dangerous ground. Personally, I dont believe in indocrinating anyone with my own religious beliefs whether they be children or adults. My children were not exposed to drugs or drug taking of any kind. When I dropped a trip it would be done after they went to bed, they didnt even see me smoke a joint while they were young. This doesnt mean I kept it secret from them, if they asked questions I would always be honest and frank. I have no doubt there are plenty of people on this forum who have a different opinion on this issue, its a sensetive matter.

There is so much more I would like to say... If only I could repeat what that "scum of the earth" Judge once said to me before being sentenced for drugs offences, you would be horrified! I have personal experiences that are very relevant but I really cant divulge right now, Im already treading on dangerous ground and have probably said too much as it is.

I'm not missing your point firelawlayer, and I agree but I couldnt help having a rant. Feel better now.

peace

 

[Shamanita]

nvm hehe

 

[ophiuchus]

Ophiuchus - It’s interesting that the Shaman was/is not respected by all members of the community, why is this? Perhaps the community viewed the shaman as a mumbo jumbo speaking weirdo they couldn’t understand or maybe they were afraid of the shaman’s supernatural powers? Can anyone explain this?

well im sure it is different in all cases as all things are, but it must certainly be a matter of both. villagers are no more enlightened than any other human by default. all fear boils down to a fear of the unknown. these people aren't able to conceive of possibilities outside of their everyday awareness. hence why it is so popular for us to push the idea of "going with the flow". it is a manner of experiencing by which learned patterns may be overcome to allow for new possibilities of reality.

I see no reason why a modern version of the shaman shouldn’t exist but somehow the public view needs to change for them to be accepted. Judging by the attitude of modern society towards such matters, this is unlikely to happen; they would still be viewed as outsiders and “new age” weirdoes by the masses.

Is there a way to overcome this? How would such a person earn the respect of their community?

shamans aren't extinct!

i think that if everybody accepted the kind of information that the shaman deals with, then there would be no need for shaman at all. if one knows how to navigate the void by themselves, then why would they need a man who specializes in it? it's like people teaching computer classes these days, we don't much need them anymore. we contain the knowledge that they would've taught us, so it becomes redundant.

this is not to say that i don't think we collectively can learn the information that the shaman deals with, but once we collectively do, there won't need to be a "shaman" anymore. we would all be shamans already and so none of us would be shaman anymore. with nothing to contrast, we cannot have something. :)

 

[Mrjelly]

alcohol is a bad drug, just as powerful as pills and just as harmful, yet it is legal. I never felt enlightened when I was drunk!

 

[drizzit]

This post is a great read I now need a licence for these practices. I doubt NY would ever allow such a thing >.>

 

[zgoat69]

I feel that the OP completely contradicted himself. If drugs are "wrong" then they are just that. To me, there is no difference between the lowly pot dealer, and the person selling heroin. Heroin has benefits just as pot does. So does meth, and maybe coke (the jury is still out on that one). But since heroin was used as the example of "wrong" we'll stick with that. What is heroin? An opiate with massive pain relieving properties. What about those with chronic pain? Have you ever looked at the price (without insurance) of a prescription of morphine derivatives? It's more than I could afford monthly. But then you can get good heroin for $20 and that, if used properly, can last for days. Sure, I think pot is great, and medicinally viable as treatment for tons of ailments, but that doesn't make it ok or not ok. Same with heroin. It's the misuse of any drug that makes it wrong in the eyes of the public, and it is that public's own view on things that shape what is wrong or right. Is it wrong to enjoy pot recreationally? If not, then why is it wrong to do so with heroin? And as for yer point about that guy selling heroin on the street being bad for society, if he doesn't sell it then who will? Doctors will. For inflated prices that most (especially the ones that neeed it) can't afford. I'm just sayin.

 

[ophiuchus]

this is a valid point. though i would venture to say that all of the other drugs, less psychedelics and cannabis, are highly addictive, with less pronounced effects, therefore they garner a "bad" rep. but imo they are still useful. i just wish that they weren't so refined... it would give them a better rep i think.