Stan Grof versus Rick Strassman on DMT

[Caduceus Mercurius]

Last week I had a short conversation with Rick Strassman, and yesterday with Stanislav Grof. What I found interesting is that Stan doesn't agree with the way he's cited in DMT Spirit Molecule, and that the experiencing of cosmic unity through smoking of DMT (rather than interaction with archetypal beings) very much depends on the dosage.

Dear Stan,

Last week I had a short correspondence with Rick Strassman.

As you know, he refers to your work once in his DMT Spirit Molecule, but his book and more recent interviews don't reflect a deep understanding of your cartography of the psyche. At least that was the impression I got.

The reference appears on page 75 of the chapter "The Psychedelic Pineal", and reads as follows:

"High levels of DMT at birth provide an explanation for a particular piece of conventional wisdom from psychedelic psychotherapy. According to Stanislav Grof, M.D., and LSD psychotherapist with unparalleled experience, much of what takes place during psychedelic therapy sessions is reenactment of the birth process. He has found that those born by Cesarean section are less able to "let go" in psychedelic therapy than those born vaginally. The presence of psychedelic levels of DMT at normal birth, and inadequate levels during Cesarean births due to little stress-hormone-induced DMT output, may explain this finding."

There are a few thoughts I have about this passage.

First, I thought that (according to Jane English) those born by non-labor Cesarean actually have easier access to transpersonal states. (I'm a non-labor anesthetized Cesarean born myself, by the way.)

Second, it seems that, although he's clearly praising you, he's merely using your insights to back up his theory of an endogenous DMT-surge at birth. No attempt is made later in the book, or in any of the interviews following it, to relate the DMT experiences of his subjects to the cartography of the psyche you have presented.

In the conversation you had with Jan Irvin of the Gnostic Media podcast he asked about the unusual effects of smoked DMT, and your response seemed to indicate that you do not consider the realm that one enters by smoking DMT to be different from the realms you've already described, namely the perinatal and the transpersonal.

Below I reproduce some excerpts from the conversation I had with Rick. Perhaps you can shed some light on the issues raised by him and myself.


Ivar to Rick:

It would perhaps be interesting to one day review the DMT experiences discussed in DMT Spirit Molecule from the point of view of Stan\'s expanded cartography of the psyche, which include the perinatal and transpersonal realms.



Rick:

I'm familiar with Grof's work, but haven't figured out quite how to incorporate our findings within it.



Ivar:

Hi Rick, nice to receive a reply from you.

Though I had been vaguely familiar with Stan Grof's work and had heard several lectures by him at the World Psychedelic Forum in Basel last year, it was only in the past three months that I read his "LSD Psychotherapy" and "Psychology of the Future" and some other PDFs on his site (I also edited "Handbook for the therapeutic use of LSD-25" by Blewett and Chwelos, which I read twice). I had read your "DMT Spirit Molecule" two years before, and so naturally I have also been trying to figure out how to relate your findings to his and the other psychedelic researchers of yore.

For a while I thought that the effects of smoked DMT were just too different from what is experienced during an LSD session, but in a recent interview (for Jan Irvin's Gnostic Media podcast) when asked about smoked DMT, Stan answered that from his perspective there's not much difference, as people who smoked significant amounts of DMT have also reported experiences of the 'metacosmic void', i.e. experiences related to Basic Perinatal Matrix I (undisturbed existence in the womb) and IV (ego-death and rebirth), or transpersonal realms. For example, visions of goddesses or other archetypal beings fit into his scheme of the transpersonal domains.

I do not know what are his views on the healing potential of the DMT state, which you yourself also discussed towards the end of your book. My guess (based on what I've read and heard from both of you) is that compared to LSD, DMT doesn't allow the subject and the guide to work through the suppressed emotional material (including the trauma of birth) as with the longer acting substances like for example LSD, mescaline and ibogaine. However, from Stan's answer to Jan Irvin's question I conclude that he does consider it a very suitable substance and method for achieving the ego-death experience and experiencing cosmic unity, which according to him has tremendous healing or holotropic potential.

I guess you're familiar with this somewhat critical article about your book?
http://www.serendipity.li/dmt/sacred.pdf
The article points out that certain factors which you had to comply with (such as the hospital setting and government supervision) may have contributed to the frequent reports of people describing aliens doing experiments on them (which you also mentioned in a recent interview for www.outtherabbithole.com). From that perspective one might wonder whether a set up that was aimed at providing the experience of ego-death, rebirth and cosmic unity, rather than doing cognitive experiments, would have resulted in more significant long-term healing or inner transformations.

I personally wonder whether it may be better to first do the longer acting psychedelics (under proper guidance of course, and focusing on biographical and perinatal material) before experiencing the instant transportation into the transpersonal realms mediated by DMT.

Did you ever get the chance to discuss your work with Stan himself? I think it could lead to interesting new insights for both of you.



Rick:

Stan's model is mostly psychoanalytic, and I have always thought the transpersonal layer he adds on is more a concession to the phenomena, rather than an integral part of his system.

Stan also has more familiarity with and speaks more highly about 5-methoxy-DMT than DMT.

Ayahuasca is an orally-active, longer-acting form of DMT, and the healing potential from this brew is gathering some attention.

Re: Infinite Ayes' review of my book: I make no bones about the absence of input to people to steer their trips. I was interested in as pure a pharmacological effect as I could ascertain - no props. If I were doing a therapy study, it would be a totally different setting

Stan and I know each other, and are friends. We've not been able to take very far our conversations about DMT or ayahuasca.



Ivar:

I got the impression that Stan had kind of renounced the psychoanalytic approach in favor of a more experiential one. And from what I've heard him say, he accepted the transpersonal phenomena with some reluctance at first, but then really started seeing it as an undeniable ontological reality. The way he talks about past life memories etc. gives me the impression that this has really become an integral part of his world view. Also his examples of psychosomatic healing taking place when not only biographical and perinatal but also transpersonal experiences were properly experienced and integrated, seem to confirm that he considers it an integral part of his system.

Interesting that he speaks more highly about 5-methoxy. There seem to be more voices like that in recent times, although as you probably know Terence McKenna had a clear preference for N,N-dimethyltryptamine. Myself, I have only experienced Mimosa extract (as well as ayahuasca), so I cannot compare the two yet.



This is where the conversation ended. What are your thoughts on these matters?

Ivar

Hi Ivar,

thank you for sharing with me your discussion with Rick. As far as Caesarean-born are concerned, I have never said or written that they have greater difficulties letting go (with possible exceptions of emergency Caeserean-born, who have to face a near-death experience, which of course is very frightening. In my experience, people born by elective Caesarean section have typically easier access to the transpersonal realm.

I think, if you read When the Impossible Happens, you will see that I have transcended the Freudian model, as well as the BPM-oriented thinking a long time ago. In the work I have been doing with Rick Tarnas (see the last section of WTIH), the primary emphasis is on the archetypal dynamics.

In my experience the level where DMT and Me-DMT takes you depends very much on the dosage; if the dose is large enough, you typically transcend the perinatal level and the archetypal level (see my story on the "Toad of Light" in WTIH). With lower dosages, an important variable is whether you keep your eyes open and have contact with the environment or do it as an inner journey.

Best, Stan

 

[IJesusChrist]

I'm going to ask my mother tonight about my birth. All she said was it was a C-section and I was "very clean" when I came out.

 

[Brugmansia]

Could it be that Rick has gained his research data and insights through mostly intravenous administrations? And Stan more through the smokeable form?

Since I'm a N,N-DMT smoker, I can relate more closely with Grof's vision, although I do not doubt Strassman's scientific measurements and documentation. But perhaps the ample precautions for monitoring the experiments during Rick's research, were so penetrating that they ain't found by just users with only their consciousness as an instrument for recording the acted activity...

 

[colonos]

Could it be that Rick has gained his research data and insights through mostly intravenous administrations? And Stan more through the smokeable form?

Since I'm a N,N-DMT smoker, I can relate more closely with Grof's vision, although I do not doubt Strassman's scientific measurements and documentation. But perhaps the ample precautions for monitoring the experiments during Rick's research, were so penetrating that they ain't found by just users with only their consciousness as an instrument for recording the acted activity...

Interesting exchange. There are clearly insights to be had through conceptualisations and comparisons of this kind. As an analytical tool it makes a lot of sense.

I do not think, however, that one should think that such conceptualisations can ever fully map the incredible multi-layered and multi-dimensional reality of experiences possible in altered states of mind. As tempting as it may be to map these things, I would actually be rather disappointed if it was possible to define in words and human terms a total, conceptual map of experiences in such states.

 

[Brugmansia]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I do not think, however, that one should think that such conceptualisations can ever fully map the incredible multi-layered and multi-dimensional reality of experiences possible in altered states of mind.

True, but cartographers never attempt to create a detailed version of the world they're trying to map. On a map a river is simply a blue line, the canopy of a forest simply a green shade etc. Similarly the cartography of the psyche presented by Stan Grof simply divides the universally reported and observed phenomena in a few broad categories (biographical, perinatal and transpersonal) and subcategories (archetypal, experiences of cosmic unity etc.). I think this does more justice to these experiences than simply claiming they are all en-theo-genic, for example. From Grof's perspective not all experiences in these states are of an entheogenic nature.

 

[buffachino]

^ I agree with that, but I don’t think we should be basing any assumption about such states, or their descriptions, on a value system for psychedelic experience; it implies that there are certain criteria that must be met for a person to affirm that they have experienced what has been specified.

The map-territory relation should be considered metaphorical at best, and when dealing with the trans-metaphoric, I think such cartography is rendered frivolous.