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psychedelic revolution

Viaticus

Elfe Mécanique
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6 Juil 2005
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344
I'm reading this awesome book 'LSD-therapie in Nederland' (= LSD therapy in the Netherlands) by Stephen Snelders and I was thinking how awesome it would be if there were psychologists or shrinks that used LSD/MDMA or maybe just shrooms/cacti for treatment.
I defenatly would go to one if it was necessary

Actually that has been done in the past (and I bet it's still being done). For example, Ann Shulgin did MDMA-psychotherapy (there are stories about this in both PiHKAL and TiHKAL). I've also read about psychedelic-aided therapies (LSD, Mescalin, Psilocybin and 2C-B have seem to be the "favourites").

I personally believe that when used by an experienced therapist and administrated in right doses they can provide a very effective supplement to ones therapy.
 

lucasdr

Elfe Mécanique
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18 Sept 2005
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274
I know it has been done, that's what the book was about. There were two psychologists who had the authorisation of the Dutch government to expiriment with LSD and therapy. They both are dead know and I never heard of any other researchers in Holland ever since. Don't know about the rest of the world though (except for Shulgin).
Cacti and fresh mushrooms are legal in some countries so that could be a great opportunity
 

Snapinho

Elfe Mécanique
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22 Sept 2004
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394
once upon a time... toen mdma nog niet misbruikt werd (;)) door jongeren op feesten, toen het alleen nog onder psychiaters verspreid werd... toen werd het onder de wat meer open mensen in therapeutische sessies best vaak gebruikt. vooral om barrieres te doorbreken en mensen makkelijker over zichzelf te laten vertellen en beter in contact met diepere gevoelens te laten komen. lsd was wat trickier geloof ik (heb t boek van snelders thuis liggen, staat in de planning om gelezen te worden) maar in het algemeen was men erg entoesjast over deze (relatief veilige) drug.
toen kwam de 'war on drugs' en het was over met de pret...

:iconhead:
 

Scinet

Glandeuse pinéale
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10 Nov 2005
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172
In my opinion a junky is some skinny guy that doesn't do anything else then taking his harddrugs. Someone who takes softdrugs isn't a junky imo.

I'd say the best definition of a junkie is "an asshole who believes that he has the right to fuck himself up with whatever substance he chooses as often as he chooses, and have others pay the bill." Of course, this is only an opinion, but these kind of people make other drug users look bad.

Of the various stances seen in this thread, I am all for full legalisation of all recreational drugs. I also do not believe in keeping things under radar, because that's where the supporters of current drug laws want us to be.

To the people who believe in the good cause of fighting against drugs, we users, even responsible ones, are an underclass not worth hearing out. Only lately have I seen a few dissenting opinions in public, where users of drugs have clearly been addressed as a heterogenic group which has in common only the want to use substances that are currently illegal.

Many arguments against legalisation of illicit recreational substances, sometimes even cannabis but more often so-called hard drugs, rest on the base of "more people will get hooked and the streets will become more dangerous." This viewpoint is understandable, but false, because it stems from illogical assumptions that somehow drugs will overnight become as popular and prominent in the society as alcohol is now. In Finland where alcoholism is a national problem it is perhaps understandable that people are afraid that allowing substances like heroin would lead to addiction statistics catching up to our alcoholism statistics. What they completely forget is that the availability and price of alcohol is not directly related to problem drinking, except if you look at things on a short term. Looking at things from a long term view, it can be said that our drinking habits are actually cleaning up slowly, because back a hundred or two hundred years, we were a nation of drunkards where a sober day was the one before payday, and when the workers were paid their due, the next stop was the gutter after a day of binge drinking.

The discourse on the legal status of drugs must be engaged in, both on personal and social level. This is because here we have a frightening troll of a subject that needs to be put right. Not only because we drug users want to explore our heads or have our fun without being needlessly demonised, but also because opening an all-out discussion will inevitably lead to healthier view on substances (both pros and cons) in general. By removing the big bad wolf of modern societies, we will also have to turn elsewhere for scapegoats for our social ills. When it is no longer possible to blame a substance for something that is wrong (ie. "that 17-year old doesn't care for school because he's on speed all the time"), we will have to face the true problems. In the parenthesised example, perhaps there is an underlying reason for the drug abuse and school-skipping? I don't know about other countries, but here I constantly see crappy parenting either in form of child abuse or simply just not being there as a big root cause of all kinds of problems later on in the children's lives.

If I'm being such an understanding bleeding heart, why the junkie hate in the first sentence? Simple. If you are okay with stealing from other people or just laying on the couch waiting for social security to deliver a cheque so you can fund your little habit, you don't deserve the drugs you are using. If you can be in such a condition and not recognize that you have a problem, or that you are a problem for others, then in my book you do not deserve shit.
 

themoles

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14 Juil 2005
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If you are okay with stealing from other people or just laying on the couch waiting for social security to deliver a cheque so you can fund your little habit, you don't deserve the drugs you are using. If you can be in such a condition and not recognize that you have a problem, or that you are a problem for others, then in my book you do not deserve shit.
we all live in a system that is based on human exploitation as tribute to existential safety. a system that spits out human beings, squeezes them out and buries them again. what they take from me i can take from them, it should be legit for a man to exploit the system himself. i can understand why someone despises to work his ass off for nothing. the worst thing in society is mutual proscription for disobeying the doctrine, you get your ass kicked by your own fellowship. it's not up to you or anyone else to decide what is good for an individual and what is not, if some people chose hanging on the couch it shall be their god damn right to do so. if we'd be in a fair world this would be somthing to point your fingers at but since we're not you shouldn't. i don't do hard drugs nor will i, nor do i sit on a chouch waiting for my cheque ... but i could understand people who do. and it's sure not those people who have a problem, it's people who think it's all fine until they're old, asking themselves where their live went. all you ever did isn't worth shit after you're dead, the only difference is that those people were able to make real decisions instead of drifting along the river. some die just to live ... think about it.
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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172
we all live in a system that is based on human exploitation as tribute to existential safety. a system that spits out human beings, squeezes them out and buries them again. what they take from me i can take from them, it should be legit for a man to exploit the system himself.

But this is where it all goes wrong. We are the system. Those who designed the current model of government and those who uphold it came from our ranks. It is only our common want of comfort and easy answers that makes them into people willing to accept exploitation of others for their or someone else's gain. Once you get used to the good living, it's hard to let go. The only way to change it is to change ourselves, but nobody wants to look in the mirror. It's always "the system" that's broken, not us.

Universal equality and a completely horizontal political system, where those who we give our confidence and vote see themselves as part of the mass instead of a caste of their own, are something to be strived towards. It just requires work. It's cool to live one's fantasy out but does it mean that one should consider others as beasts of burden who labour so this one needs not? That would make the person just as morally twisted as those who support the vertical model of society.

I guess that I am judging people who do nothing too harshly, owing to the fact that squeezing benefits from the social security system is a full-time job, at least in Finland, because the bureaucracy of the social security network makes it both time-consuming and extremely frustrating. In short, here "the man" really puts you down if he thinks you are or are becoming a part of the underclass. Because the network is so binding, it also works towards creating and maintaining the aforementioned underclass: once you get in, you can't get out because your social contacts will begin to disappear, along with job opportunities. It's frustrating to see a lot of people who would take whatever work given, but are given nothing.
 

themoles

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14 Juil 2005
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we're not the system, we bring the system to live. the system is an underlying self regulating ruleset that came out wrong. for anything i buy i have to pay 15-80% taxes, they steal more than half of my life without giving me anything back. there's 10 people out of a million poor that share the wealth. crackjunkies on welfare are fine with me, i would rather point my finger at the circumstances that cause it. something deep within the society is sick and therein lies the real problem. whether it helps you to go against the minority or not, it won't cure anything. since you're talking about mirrors, junkies embody the distorted mirror image of society.
 

lucasdr

Elfe Mécanique
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18 Sept 2005
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274
I agree with Themoles on this one. This so called 'democratic' system has a lack of freedom. Certain people can not function normally because of all the rules.
Companies are based on hierarchic systems and people become more 'dependent' because they have to follow all these rules.
You can call me an anarchist if you like. The main thing I pleat for is to have a society where there are no rules but guidelines instead. People would become more independent and aware of what they really want. Nowadays, people are not aware of what they're doing because they just listen to rules. Rules that indirect indicate that money is important and taking drugs is a crime.
I believe junkies use drugs to escape this world, because they can't reach there lifegoal. In my opinion everyone has one main thing to learn in life.
This so called organised anarchy would require a very complex system and I don't think the system would survive a revolution. People raised in the other system wouldn't understand it and there would be chaos everywhere...
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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we're not the system, we bring the system to live. the system is an underlying self regulating ruleset that came out wrong. for anything i buy i have to pay 15-80% taxes, they steal more than half of my life without giving me anything back. there's 10 people out of a million poor that share the wealth. crackjunkies on welfare are fine with me, i would rather point my finger at the circumstances that cause it. something deep within the society is sick and therein lies the real problem. whether it helps you to go against the minority or not, it won't cure anything. since you're talking about mirrors, junkies embody the distorted mirror image of society.

They don't give you anything back? Libraries, public (although sadly deteriorating) health care, pension, public transportation, waste disposal, water, elementary schooling; Are these not worth paying for? And the list goes on. Police (although not always friendly), state health insurance, fire departments, unemployment benefits, student benefits, low income housing benefits... Don't you ever say they take your taxes and give nothing back. Just because you can't see, don't use or won't notice it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

I do confess that my analysis (in short, system = you) does not really extend to countries such as the UK or the US, where the power is traditionally in the hands of those who come from wealthy backgrounds and attend the finest schools. In more democratic and less plutocratic countries those who define our policies are more often than not in no other way special from me or you, except that they chose to pursue politics as a career. The only reason things do not change is because we, the people, are too snug and fucking lazy to either vote for people who actually believe, not just say they do, in a more equal world, or to join in the process ourselves. Too bad nobody considers a vote a long-term investment. Your definition makes the system a faceless automaton, but every part of that machine is a living person, who chooses to be at his current position. Twenty years from now the system here will be upheld at least in part by people I knew when I was young, possibly even my former classmates. Even if they want to upkeep the exploitative and subjugative model, they are still people and they are still my peers even then. Thus, the society is born of us, and maintained by us. Thinking oneself apart from it while still living in it is rather self-righteous.

As for revolutions, they don't really work out in the long run , because if we follow a leader or a standard instead of having the message in ourselves, we elevate them and once again what could be seen as modern feodalism prevails. Most people who scream slogans against the current system have no real alternatives for it, and their lashing is born out of frustration and unability to do anything. Too bad this doesn't work, since the current model integrates most of the would-be dissidents and finds them something more cozy to do than standing in the rain demanding whatever the current trendy demand happens to be. True social revolution was really close in western europe during the seventies, in the form of radical left youth groups. They were flattened, crushed or assimilated, and ironically many current economical power players used to be communists. Subversion is so much harder and takes a lot longer time, but the results will last longer.

As for junkies being mirrors, themoles is correct. They are the perfect reflection of a hedonistic society that values a moment's pleasure over anything else. There are 6 billion people on earth, and only 1,4 billion of them are considered to be on good enough economical standing to be called consumers (a very, very offending word). The rest don't have a choice between work and the couch - their choice is between work and early grave.

There is indeed something wrong deep in the current western society model: us. We can dream of better things all we want, but the bastards among us have learned to do rather than dream. If the model seems skewed, we have the tools to fix it. Gotta pick up the hammer and get to work.

At this point, it would be so easy to attack me with the question, "well, what the hell have you done?" And the answer is, sadly, not enough, at least by my standards. Fortunately there's still time.

Todayisfine, you spoke about life goals. I absolutely agree that they are important, and that people should try to find theirs. Maybe then we would see more content and happy people instead of those turning to chemical means of making themselves either or both.

Oops... that was one very long derail.
 

tryptonaut

Holofractale de l'hypervérité
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20 Nov 2004
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I think "the bad system" is the belief in money and the concept that money can be augmented without work or something being produced (i.e. by interests). This concept is what makes people greedy and greed is the motor for making this world more and more soulless and inhumane. We put all our efforts and work into increasing profits and because if one makes profits the other doesn't, this makes us fight against each other over something hollow.
I do believe that through this daily fighting we are all losing our souls, our spirituality (whatever you want to call it) - and therefore we are all destroying ourselves, no matter if we have a lot of money or not.
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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I think "the bad system" is the belief in money and the concept that money can be augmented without work or something being produced (i.e. by interests). This concept is what makes people greedy and greed is the motor for making this world more and more soulless and inhumane. We put all our efforts and work into increasing profits and because if one makes profits the other doesn't, this makes us fight against each other over something hollow.
I do believe that through this daily fighting we are all losing our souls, our spirituality (whatever you want to call it) - and therefore we are all destroying ourselves, no matter if we have a lot of money or not.

Succintly and well put. Never eat other people (in a metaphorical sense of course, I encourage cannibalism ;) ) for your own gain.

This is a good morning indeed. First I peek into my germination dish to find out I'm a daddy, because one of my little seed friends stuck out a root during the night. It's just like he's saying (EDIT: GOD DAMN I HOPE IT'S A SHE), "Hi!" Then I come here and read what I just quoted. Now all I need is some sunshine and I'll declare a treehug paradise.
 

themoles

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14 Juil 2005
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scinet, im aware there's something i get back but that's what i meant with existential safety. and sure it is worth paying for but it's not worth my life, which they take from me without any doubt. i think you missunderstood the whole concept of a self regulating system, you list plain jobs, that's what a ruleset is made for, we the people bring the system to live, i said it before. it has NOTHING to do whith the fact that something underneath it is wrong (stock exchange & interests for example, interests are the only reason we overproduce, where does the money come from to fund it? it's like a growing tumor). i still think your attitude in regard to junkies is wrong, they don't value a moments pleasure over anything else, it's a direct byproduct of society, it's a sickness that has a cause, i suppose it's easier to look away. i never said a revolution will work out, i agree with you on that one. there's nothing we can do about but it's my belief that everything is going to collapse some day, it's the only logical consequence. in these days it's a good thing being on crack the whole day i guess. we'll all die, and when we're dead everything we ever did has no value whatsoever, so in a logical sense, who's more clever: guy A that works his ass off for nothing, languishes in daily routine until he becomes old and shabby - and dies, or guy B that finds enlightenment in a heroin rush - and dies.
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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who's more clever: guy A that works his ass off for nothing, languishes in daily routine until he becomes old and shabby - and dies, or guy B that finds enlightenment in a heroin rush - and dies.

There's also guy C who works but refuses to let it dictate his life and hobbies. I work and study, yet find all the time I need for fun, composing music and consuming strange substances. If the routine would drive me down, I'd switch to some other occupation. No reason being a careered zombie at 40. I would be very discontent as guy A or guy B. Okay, as guy B I wouldn't be discontent - I'd be dead. I haven't tried death so I don't know how fun that is, but I think I'll have plenty of time for that later, why rush?

I was not listing jobs, I was listing beneficial things the society provides with tax money. Granted, it does provide many things of less benevolent nature too, such as military budgets, weapons research, funding for clearly segregational immigrant policies and subsidies for bloated farming systems. I wouldn't want my tax money spent on such crap, so I guess I gotta start being active for a reform in that direction.

You are very correct when you point towards stock exchange as a cause of problems. It is not a root cause, but fast-paced economics bent on fast returns, and markets that can be manipulated easily, are a huge roadblock on the way to universal equality. If a single man can destroy an entire country's economy simply by trading his wealth from one currency to another and back again, there's tweaking to be made.

A broken society produces broken individuals, who in turn will help degrade the society even more. But judging from the way the west is going, there is no ground floor in hell. I'd rather try doing something now that wait for something that may never happen. If we'd have always waited, we would still be serving as 24h serfs to lords who keep us in total ignorance and fear. This may feel like a crappy high school metaphor for today, but looking back to as close as the Czars' Russia, we can see that we are better of than the poor bastards were then. We have a choice and the tools to educate ourselves and act. People still have a voice, they should use it. Just waiting for something to happen seems to just be an excuse to do nothing at all. Besides, if this whole thing comes down, it's not going to be us little people who survive.

Also, sometimes people who die leave legacies of greater value than themselves:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._D._Morel

It all boils down to individual choice. I guess I just feel like I have an obligation to do something. Maybe I'm wrong, but being as stubborn as I am, it's probably going to take a while to find out.

(This message was brought to you on corporate time. Nobody here gives a rat's ass.)
 

themoles

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14 Juil 2005
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134
we all have time, i love strange substances of all sort and i compose music aswell. since you brought up person C that is unlike A & B, i bring up person D which embodies us in a fictitious world that does not indoctrinate just because we're supposed to funct (you call it 'education' i call it a JOKE), a world that allows us to BE us. there's so much we don't know and we will probably never find out because we're only adjusted to cooperate for a compliant purpose. you're talking about drugs and freedom, hey, you're not even allowed to take drugs, whether it's harmless or not, ever asked yourself why? no i guess not. there's cuts in our personal freedom everywhere and i can asure you i'd be a different person in a system that would not suppress or adjust me. we're able to sprout, there's so much we're capable of, but we're not wanted to do so, the LSD revolution was the last time we demanded some grace. in what we call 'primitive' cultures the people live in peace and harmony, they get taught about oneself AND about their enviroment unlike in the western world. the sexual act is evil and we will all land in hell if we don't follow the doctrine, that's your non primitive world you love so much, amen!
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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we all have time, i love strange substances of all sort and i compose music aswell. since you brought up person C that is unlike A & B, i bring up person D which embodies us in a fictitious world that does not indoctrinate just because we're supposed to funct (you call it 'education' i call it a JOKE), a world that allows us to BE us. there's so much we don't know and we will probably never find out because we're only adjusted to cooperate for a compliant purpose. you're talking about drugs and freedom, hey, you're not even allowed to take drugs, whether it's harmless or not, ever asked yourself why? no i guess not. there's cuts in our personal freedom everywhere and i can asure you i'd be a different person in a system that would not suppress or adjust me. we're able to sprout, there's so much we're capable of, but we're not wanted to do so, the LSD revolution was the last time we demanded some grace. in what we call 'primitive' cultures the people live in peace and harmony, they get taught about oneself AND about their enviroment unlike in the western world. the sexual act is evil and we will all land in hell if we don't follow the doctrine, that's your non primitive world you love so much, amen!

One should not do drugs if one does not ask himself, "Why do it?" Asking that invariably leads to asking, "Why do it despite what I'm told?" The answer to the second question is simple: because what I'm told is not true. Because information leading to the contrary is available if looked, and knowing what I may gain by experience, weighing it against what I may lose in health or due to side-effects, I choose to use. This is also why I choose to use only some drugs, leaving others out.

On a side note, I would say it is downright insulting to assume that any person on this forum has not asked themself why they do drugs. It is not as if it is a feat that requires the intellect of a supergenius to perform.

Laws exist to be adjusted according to what is perceived to be right. Laws against drugs are born of ignorance, and compliance with perceived authority. I wish to change that, and a change is possible. Out of the very same reasons, laws against homosexuality were born. While acceptance towards the homosexual culture has been slow, they are no longer sawed in half, skewered on hot pokers or crucified. It took a long time, but things did change. I expect drugs will have the same happen to them eventually. Too bad that there are so many hypocritical users that would not raise a finger to do a thing or speak a word to spread awareness, or in the worst case will deny their use if asked. They are an albatross at the neck of those who actively seek change.

My education is of a field I have personally chosen. Regarding knowledge that is acquired willfully, and of something one personally wishes to know about, as a joke is ignorance. When is education a joke? Is educating yourself about drugs bad? Is learning how to use a compressor in order to make songs sound better a joke? Or is it a joke only when someone else teaches something to you? Attending any kind of school does not mean that a person must integrate, subjugate and obey. A true learning environment encourages the will to question, and even if our elementary schooling favours mediocrity, it doesn't mean things do not get better further on. And to a person such as you who says he values freedom, transfer of knowledge should be the holiest sacrament.

At the moment, I feel very much myself. I have explored my abilities, knowledge and sexuality as far as I have been able without harming anyone while doing it. I am sure there are still things I do not know about myself or have not realized I can try. These things come with age, and if I think back to what I have learned in the past ten years, I am happy, because there is a difference between me then and me now. Who represses me if I do not repress myself? My only regret is that I will never have the time to learn all I'd like. I would love to understand physics and chemistry better than I do, as well as music, visual arts, botany, philosophy and computer engineering. I know I can't do it all, because I comprehend my intellectual limitations, but gotta try my best, wha?

What primitive cultures live or lived in peace and harmony? The Maya people who died because their plebians murdered the aristocracy who were the only ones who could read? The indians, among whom entire nations waged war against each other according to a strict honour code, and who even had their own police? The Aztecs, who enslaved the majority of Central America? The african tribes who fought eachother for land and cattle and still do? The beduins of Arabia? The only ones I can't remember having fought anyone are the australian Aboriginals, and that's just because I know so little about them I have no idea if they did or not. Even the South American indians, often touted as pure hearted shamanic tribes were just people, and acted accordingly. The old times weren't full of hippy bullshit garbage books like Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee would like to have people believe - the myth of the "noble savage". Appreciating the beauty of native cultures means accepting also their ofttimes brutal behaviour.

As for the LSD revolution, people were given the keys and the instructions. Their laziness just made them believe they could sit in the backseat and have people like Leary and Kesey drive. A fat lot of good that bout of inactivity did us, except get psychedelics banned universally.

Oh by the way, who here said that the sexual act is evil? It is not like the topic of the forum is Christian Summer Camp. (Oh god I've been to some as a child. The memories, the massive repression, the pent-up urges, the horror... the horror... Poor children of parents who would force such things upon them. They way they spoke about god, they made him sound like a person who would jack off watching people try to hide their sexual urges by hurting themselves.)
 

themoles

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14 Juil 2005
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sorry but i think you enjoy to missinterpret what im saying. i wasn't asking if you know why YOU do drugs, i was asking if you know why they're forbidden, even though it's common knowledge they're harmless (some of them at least). i also never said that information isn't available (even though they plan to shut it down by now, you can read about that in the news) - i was talking about getting adjusted. i also didn't say eductaion is a joke, i said calling 'adjustment to cooperate for a compliant purpose' education is a joke but this is what is done in our schools, sorry but are you blind? if you feel you experienced everything you're capable of, fine, but you're still wrong (read the post about lucid dreaming in the general thread, and that's only one thing most people don't know of, and there's so much more, it was part of older cultures, now labeled fake, not useful, devilish and anti social). im kinda sucked out now, your gigantic answers won't help it, read again what i wrote or forget about it, there's no way you could disagree if you got me right.
 

Scinet

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10 Nov 2005
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sorry but i think you enjoy to missinterpret what im saying. i wasn't asking if you know why YOU do drugs, i was asking if you know why they're forbidden, even though it's common knowledge they're harmless (some of them at least). i also never said that information isn't available (even though they plan to shut it down by now, you can read about that in the news) - i was talking about getting adjusted. i also didn't say eductaion is a joke, i said calling 'adjustment to cooperate for a compliant purpose' education is a joke but this is what is done in our schools, sorry but are you blind? if you feel you experienced everything you're capable of, fine, but you're still wrong (read the post about lucid dreaming in the general thread, and that's only one thing most people don't know of, and there's so much more, it was part of older cultures, now labeled fake, not useful, devilish and anti social). im kinda sucked out now, your gigantic answers won't help it, read again what i wrote or forget about it, there's no way you could disagree if you got me right.

Ah, yes, it appears I was too swift in reading the part where you asked about reasons to use/reasons they are illegal. I see the point now, and apologize for moving the discussion into an unneeded and unintended direction.

However, I would also say it is sometimes difficult to find the core of what you are saying. I took this:
"(you call it 'education' i call it a JOKE)"
as it was said, and answered accordingly. Perhaps, because what I call education has nothing to do with what you prescribe it to be. Where I originally said the word, I never meant forceful opinionating, polarising or feeding of dogmas. That is not education at all. Also, homogenization is not done in all of our schools, though it may to the independent thinker be comforting to think so. The assigned teacher my class had from the third to the fifth grade is a man I still respect and value, and hope that I would in the future meet more teachers like he was. He was basically against everything that the fast-gain fast-spend late eighties stood for. I did not quite understand it back then, being so young, but later on I wish more teachers would have been like him. Too bad men like him are rare, and it is only by luck one gets to meet them in a classroom.

I neither implied that you said information is not available. I merely meant to say that where information is available, it is to be utilised. Same went for experiences. I never said I feel I have experienced everything. What I was trying to say, perhaps in a confusing manner, was that I often feel that I know where the limits of my experiences are, but as I age I always find something new, because some things only come with time.

As a final note, we are exchanging ideas and opinions. There is room for disagreement, for both, and it is well that it is so.
 

themoles

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134
no problem. i guess im biased because the school i went to teached us that border guards are heroes and that it's okay to shoot people who want to escape the state (yeah i grew up in the D D R haha). it isn't any different now, nowhere, schools and the media are used to indoctrinate (best examples: america, russia, china & japan), i have friends in those countries so i know what im talking about. while the whole world was demonstrating about the iraqi war, all you could see on american TV was jacksons fucked up son dangling out the hotel window. in china they don't even know that their own government once killed 4000 students by rolling over them with tanks, they deny it and every site that mentions it get's blocked, im not even speaking about tibeth or taiwan - it's crazy. in russia putin does what the fuck he wants but they praise him. in my first posting i just wanted to say that something is obiously wrong, mostly everywhere in the world and that you should not proscribe people who are not strong enough to deal with it. drug addicts don't degrade society, society is degrading itself.
 

Scinet

Glandeuse pinéale
Inscrit
10 Nov 2005
Messages
172
It is indeed that things are not well. I wish there can be found a way to work towards fixing what we have now. With the US or Russia, I wouldn't even know where to start, but I hope there is still room in Finland for improvement, as long as people can be made to realize that the welfare state we so gladly advertised to the rest of the world is now officially dead. Too bad that its bloated corpse is still propped up like the Colossus of Rhodos, on display as a magnificient achievement.

Trying to change things will probably feel like :iconhead: even here, but what the hell. Gotta try. At least they don't crucify people anymore, just sell them to the yellow papers.

It is laziness and refusal to see what is in plain sight that degrades us, and shames us.
 

aynama

Neurotransmetteur
Inscrit
15 Juin 2005
Messages
74
KEEP ACTIVE PEOPLE!

don't go soft on this. where is all the action!?

just asking...

we must take responsibility, you hear!

don't go home and get high on the easy way, let the strong vibe be strong.

you know, some will kill and rape, and yet here we are, the peace loving folk, time goes by, our ancestors made the mistake of watching the madness from a place that was protected and very very away, then the crazy evil took over.

what I mean, and I am not on bad trips or anything, is that we must really take over, not because we can or we may, but because of the planet and the inhabitants, you and we, the whole planet, it is a big question!
 
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