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natural versus synthetic dissociatives and entheogens

Caduceus Mercurius

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The words dissociation and dissociative are defined as follows on Wikipedia:
Dissociation is an unexpected partial or complete disruption of the normal integration of a person’s conscious or psychological functioning that cannot be easily explained by the person. Dissociation is a mental process that severs a connection to a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity.

A dissociative is a drug which reduces (or blocks) signals to the conscious mind from other parts of the brain, typically, but not necessarily, limited to the senses. Such a state of sensory deprivation and dissociation can facilitate self-exploration, hallucinations, and dreamlike states of mind which may resemble some psychedelic mindstates. Essentially, similar states of mind can be reached via contrasting paths—psychedelic or dissociative. That said, the entire experience's risks and benefits are markedly different.

The primary dissociatives are similar in action to phencyclidine (PCP), and include ketamine and dextromethorphan (DXM). Also included are nitrous oxide (laughing gas), salvia divinorum, and muscimol from the amanita muscaria (fly agaric) mushroom.

Many dissociatives also have central nervous system depressant effects, thereby carrying similar risks with opioids that slow breathing and lower the heart rate to levels which can result in death, when used in very high doses.

Their effects are characterized by intense feelings of depersonalization, derealization, and analgesia.

There has been some discussion about the uses and dangers of Datura, Amanita muscaria and Ketamine in particular. Brugmansia and Ahuaeynjxs have touched upon the matter in other threads. It was suggested yesterday that a new thread be opened to discuss the issue again.

I'm curious about your experiences and insights. I haven't done ketamine myself, only Datura and NO a few times. I've read many reports of people hurting themselves physically on Datura, and I could have easily hurt myself as well if it hadn't been for my (equally intoxicated) friend helping me. As far as ketamine is concerned, at least two people have died in an isolation tank or bath tub while under the influence. But just because there are risks involved, doesn't mean there aren't also ways to responsibly employ certain states of mind. Also: there maybe something to say for sticking to organic dissociatives/entheogens and avoiding certain (or all?) synthetics.

What are your thoughts on the 'lucid dreams' that are generated by these compounds?

What are some of the possible short-term and long-term side-effects to be expected from prolonged usage?

Feel free to take the discussion in any direction you want, as long as it's related to the effects of Solanaceas or Amanita muscaria.
 
Here's a summary from the discussion so far (as it occured in this thread). There has also been some discussion in the 'Datura seed pod' thread.

Brugmansia a dit:
Solanaceae's, Amanita and dissociatives (Ketamine, DXM, PCP) have the ability to produce what I call 'fake dreams'. The effects are experienced more realistic than with entheogens, yet very deceptive.

I had this with Ketamine in the past, and it didn't took too long before I got a complex out of it. Coming out of the K-hole, with the assumption that I landed here in reality, of which I thought was just one of the many realms.

Seeing that people just did what they did in this realm, gave me the feeling of being sent to here. Like the Lord gave me a message to pas it on on behalf of the superior power of all realms of where I thought I was part of. And thinking you're owning the place in where people live there life at sober levels.

Thanks to some rational texts about dissociatives on the internet, and entheogens, that I never presented anything in the actual life which had almost convinced me completely to do so.

Nightshades, Amanita and dissociatives might be an addition to the life of a psychonaut, but they should never replace entheogens and frequent use can result into complexes which are experienced as minor problems for the user.

But the environment gets to do deal with a lot crisis which is not caused by violence or being anti-social, but purely by one person with different faces that are projecting in all rest and serenity. Gained out of states of awareness in where you're detached into pieces and identities. Often without too much of one's notice.
Ahuaeynjxs a dit:
Bru : It seems obvious you have not experienced Solanaceas and Amanita delirium if you put them in the same bag as Ketamine.

I can well understand you perspective about that synthetic, but you make a strange distinction between entheogens and Amanita - Datura (both can be very dangerous for the neophyte psychonaut, but are hardly irelevant or fake and never dissociative) ; to me they are entheogens, but start a topic if you want I'll look it up.
Brugmansia a dit:
Not a delirium, no. Don't be daft with your love for that specific plant material and yourself rejecting synthetics and other entheogens. If you want experiences which consist of just hallucinations and nothing more... :roll: As I said with ketamine, no content, just dream visions of the lost consciousness.
 
Namaste'

Sorry I had an Amanita report here but thread is not moving and do not wish to leave it here.

my apologies.
 
There was nothing better in my point of view. It shouldn't be a versus at all.

I do not doubt that Solanaceae's, Amanita or dissociatives may give one tongue-tied experiences in return which resident on the same level als peaking on entheogens.

I wanted to point out that they are no replacement for LSD, Psilo, Cactus and DMT. And added why extended use of deliriants or dissociatives result in what I call 'fake dreams' rather than a free mind which can find it's comfort, self-value and peace in this world.

There are some minor exceptional good reports on solanaceae's, but none of these actually includes a clear description about how it affected one in the long-term and how it lifted them up to enlightment, which one can readily feel everyday after waking up.

Only vague descriptions about 'how they were saved' and 'anything is possible to see'. And if one already has reached enlightment with nightshades, he might not have fellow sufferers where he can identify himself with in order to break boundries between his mind and those of others.

And that, is what a psychonaut is looking for, building bridges between individual minds through understanding and mutual senses of empathy. Not created through the intake of a substance, but making these senses in his deepest bottom visible for display on the upper surface through the substance.

Amanita seems to be a wonderful mind-expander as well. But yet, I have never read anything about such a peaceable community in Siberia as some Indian tribes in Mexico or S. America.

That's why, I personally love LSD. Even after years, you can go to a conference and share the same inner feelings with other fellows which you never seen before untill that day. You wouldn't even dare that by a random new stranger.

As I said, there's only a difference in the substances. But I love coming closer to others by an individual practice, which in fact, continues to go on for a very long time at sober levels. The bright and luminous view on life and it's beauty will never be lost.

The point of mind-altering perceptions, are not hallucinations (I even have a dislike for the word hallucinogen), despersonalisation, or false worlds which fully overlap the real world by taking your whole sight while having full amnesia of past memories.

But finding your true mind with no doubts, which you possibily have lost through the modern society with so much variation, that you couldn't determine anymore what serves the self for the good. Being in able to work on self-value for a 100 per cent through an unambiguous path, allows one to practice feelings as love, caring and friendship at his highest and purest level. As well as pretty much all senses.

And through the substances that speak with ONE clear and unmistakable message, in where you truly feel "This is it, I now realised that choice is the way to go rather than adopting external inputs blindly" you learn how to love, how to get softer and how to capitulate with your consciousness instead of just speaking words in order to convince, while your inner life still has it's doubts which you tend to hide.

So as I said, it won't be reached through just the use of Solanaceae's, Amanita's or dissociatives alone.

So I don't understand why someone would prefer these, and calls entheogens such a LSD/Psilo/Mesca/DMT just one of the many ways. These are essential to get free.
 
Nice trip report IM :) I always enjoy the dreamy inspiration on amanita.

However the way you prepared it killed the mushroom , and as I said the only way to fully appreciate its gift is by drinking the blood of the living mycelium, and eating the body of the mushroom dried without heat.

Only drying is suffiscient to decarboxylate, eating the mushroom will accelerate the spirit, but only the properly prepared ambrosia will create the psychedelic effects, it must be made from living mushroom, and be properly diluted.

Datura is a plant of the unseen worlds and microcosm... it shows you what "lives" inside the objects you see day to day, places and people... especially what you forgot that was important about some people you met. It also trains one to "let go" and accept the experience as it, which is much more important to me than dissolving the ego and finding whatever was veiled by its perceptions.

Understand that I don't diminish in no way the psychedelics and phenetylamine amphetamines (like mescaline and MDMA) but I do not think they are key to anythign spiritual, I think it is completely physiological their beneficial effects, only companions to enhance perceptions and help clarify purpose for self-empowerment of the insights gotten with symbiosis with the mushroom and exploration in the higher vibrating planes of Salvia and the Solanaceas.

Building bridges is the good side of the fake war in my opinion, pontification. The bad side resting with the illuminati ; mastification.

Both working together destroyed many cultures, ways of life and anscient knowledge, making the ground much more less hospitable for humans in true symbiosis who would rather say all the information you will ever need is within your hologram, through your heart.

Although my view might seem diametrically opposed to yours, it is not so ; I'm merely pointing out that you seem to know for "sure" that the state brought on by those plants is somehow "false" and you seem to polarise everything to extremes , just as dark lords would do.

You put again dissociatives in the same bag as Datura and Amanita, it seems you are totally closed to my perspective, so much for building bridges.

Anyways in my perspective psylocybin mushrooms are part of the mythical soma recipe (along with poppy, maoi, cannabis, dmt and amanita), and sacred cactus is THE expansive experience required for people to understand how the history of the "virgin continent" has pitted itself against the "oldness" of the Mu civilization.
 
Yes it was a combination of many psychedelics, but the soma was a properly diluted potion (the amanita mycelium "blood" *grape juice eaten by live mycelium* augments potency as you dilute it with water), it is the same amanita, just now our spirits are much more limited and the environement much less magic ; the son of man haven't changed since prehistoric times I feel.

Ah it's ok... but it dosen't matter much for the effect, it will still accelerate your spirit, but the spores will not sprout inside your intestines if you roast them, you also need some sun exposure to give it life ; the rays that it needs go through your belly.

The amanita is the root of soma, and the importance it was given is not exagerated, it is still the highest intelligence and most symbiotical living being on this planet ; it deserves all the praises.

I have not read much about it in the vedas, but they seemed to have been deifying the mushroom like many cults and religions, which I explained in the sun thread is like hijacking the power of the spirit without any concern for DNA ; the amanita does not let this happen anymore, since the age of pisces is coming to an end... It is killing the fishes so to speak... I don't mean to be vague here, but lets say the internet has given it life and voice.

Is this familiar ?


Trust the fungus ! And it is no blind trust, we have our scientific proofs and synchronicities !
 
InnerMysteries a dit:
Namaste'

Sorry I had an Amanita report here but thread is not moving and do not wish to leave it here.

my apologies.
It was an extremely personal account, and I appreciate you for posting it here for as long as you did.

Regarding the living Amanita, the document where much of this is explained in detail can be found here: http://ambrosiasociety.org/files/herbofimmortality.pdf

Scroll to the middle of it to read the chapters on the immortal mycelium.
 
Ahuaeynjxs, to get back to Datura, you say that it isn't a deliriant but an entheogen to you, and also a medicine. Would you like to explain for what purposes and at what dosages it could be used medicinally?

I don't remember the dose I took in 1993. It was a couple of crushed seeds and leaves soaked in two cups of coffee, which we drank around 14:00. That evening I couldn't focus my eyes, but saw energy flowing out of my fingertips, and I had intense visionary distortions. I think it would be fair to say that to the ordinary world, that is a delusional state, because I mumbled nonsense to my brother and wasn't in control of my bodily functions. And I think it took the additional dose of LSD the next morning to stear the trip into a philosophical/psychological direction. Or is that just not the point of the Datura experience, to think and learn?
 
Trust the fungus!

As I mentioned before, two weeks ago I soaked 20 grams of dried Amanitas in grape juice, combining the two washes in a 500 ml bottle. Of this I took one fourth just now, diluted with water. I'll go for a walk on this sunny Sunday afternoon, and if it feels good take the next dose, and recycle. I think I'd better take my sunglasses with me. 8)

Edit: I decided to finish the other half of the intended dose, i.e. 250 ml, equivalent to about 10 grams of dried caps, though I already drank the third wash last week (no noticeable effects).
 
Already asked and never got a straight answer. I'm interested in learning about solanaceae's from those who have done them more frequently and know their power. I just feel that Ahuaeynjxs could teach me more, if he is willing to do so.

Alright, I do believe that Amanita's have the potential to transafer you into another realm.

So Ahuaeynjxs, what have been your journey's with that toad and the datura plant? And what are you carrying with you at sober levels?

Do you believe, that, having amnesia of a certain history, and erasing your own self-reflection, is life in it's purest form with a body disconnected from a duty to spend?

And what are your views on particulary the next four compounds: salvia, DMT, cannabis and cacti?
 
I hope that my question doesn't make you angry...but I wondered if all Solanaceae have some narcotic properties in common. I am specifically asking about tobacco, which is also a Solanaceae and if it shares the properties of other Solanaceae plants...
 
I have had around 10 experiences with datura... and yes I would say it makes you learn to watch, accept and let go, mainly because scenes, very complex scenes flash before your eyes, some pleasant some unpleasant, but they're all part of the unseen worlds, and you seem to learn to appreciate that in that state.

Of course if you take a little too much, you don't remember as much, and Datura can even lead you to kill yoruself, but if you take too much you havent took time to aprehend and honor the plant which can be very dangerous even physically to the heart.

So yes eventually at one point datura seems to trust you and makes it more pleasant, you see no more snakes coming out of the box where you seek your cannabis to kill the nausea, and stuff like that ; it offers you long intricate chats with people you haven't seen in a while. I even chatted with plato once, very interesting man. And those people come by, open the door of your room and (I was young when I did they first trips) I stood up and went like... man damn don't open the door so loud, you'll wake up my parents ! but then you touch the door and poof it's never been opened... so you turn around and finally accept sone unreal things will happen to you, but you need not move, you must not move, you must accept and let go.

And then Datura can also make you travel inside your own body ; to the point where you eventually meet her inside you, thats a little freaky experience. So I wouldn't recommend this trip to anyone who has even the slightest impulsivity, or you could end up getting a knife to kill that wolf thats trying to eat your potato chips. Datura dosen't like immature or impulsive men, she will make fun of them, like even immoral fun.

To me there is much insight to be gained especially if you have a sitter that is stronger than you can can hold you back in case you stand up and try to do stuff, someone you really trust. You must also be sure your heart is strong, because it's not a harmless substance, it does take a few days to get back from the experience fully, even if it lasts only 12 hours or so at the right dosage.

Because you meet people, and they seem to never talk futile stuff, they talk about how you handle your life, how they think reality is in some ways, they warn you of bad people... etc... and it's all real if you manage to remember it. Just talking about it makes me miss it in a way ; but now I'm too sick to do it again.

About the medicinal use, well it can be used as any motion sickness medicine, for motion sickness, or to get to sleep, or for allergies (anti-histamine)... who knows someday you might see someone having a terrible life threatning reaction and run in the bush to find some datura and save his life it's very powerful and fast acting if you chew it well.

It's also a good aphrodisiac like all antihistamines, but it destroys your sexual power by allowing more dopamine than you normally would be able to squeeze out if you take it in the long term. But if you know you are going to spend one special night, then munching on a few seeds might be a great idea.

You have to take it all from the same plant, and try 2-3 at first, then if you feel nothing , 2-3 more... etc... you must learn to know how your body reacts to it before you know whats the right medicinal dose for you, and how much you need for an experience.

Usually when you get in the 20-30 seeds range you start to hallucinate, but at that stage, only 5-10 more seeds can make a major difference in the power of the visions ; so you better not take it all at once, and have someone watch you in case you say you can take more but you just hallucinate you're sober (datura loves to play tricks on people like that)

What I kept from this trip is to accept that life is an experience, and how I can use the mirror of others to understand myself better, it's a kind of practice for that, because you see many people flash by and they each remind you of archetypes.

And it also teaches you exactly the opposite of your question ; it teaches you not to forget anything, most people will forget the experience because what you see makes so much sense it can turn you crazy, but if you accept it as an experience, you just detached yourself to reattach better.

With amanita well... I have accelerated my spirit to the level of OOBE many times, and I learned many deep insights about my body, also how to save my life by drinking my own urine (I was VERY sick back then) and understand why people do not necessarly take responsibility for their own actions, in the metaphor that we shouldn't urinate, that the third sexual lotus is broken so people flush their karma down the earth without taking responsibility for it. It also gives you a feeling that you participate somehow to the grander view of things, that your opinion is noted... I don't know exactly the mechanism of this, which is why I'm here, but I hope we will find out soon enough !

But I still have to experience the living blood, and the "happy" intoxication it gives... I have only lived the "heavy" and deeply unpleasant detachment of the spirit, it's not fun AT ALL at these doeses (30 grams of highly potent african caps, reingested urine 2 and a half times.)

I actually tought I was dying, it detaches you from both pride and humility, both security and threat... it's a highly unsettling experience to be robed of all the polarities you're used to lean upon ; you stand there and see all of them and eventually go... oh well, and then fly up, and if you manage to keep enough emotional coherence, you go through the heart of the sun (you actually see that as flying towards it) then it all changes, and talk to yourself at ULTRA speeds, it's even too hard to keep up ; which is why everytime I experienced it I merely retained one insight.

It can also be very dangerous to dehydrate, I drenched my whole bed, through the matress, lots of water lost, if I wasn't experienced and knew how to "fight" the trip and stand up to drink, I would not have made it. I did this alone and it was a big error on my part, you not merely want someone with you, you want a woman with you, I don't know why but they have this way of reassuring you that no man can.

When you feel pathetic and speak to yourself and pee or ejaculate in your pants because you are loosing control, you want a woman to reassure you, or you will fight the trip ; because the amanita is not about "I give you everything all at once" it's a very intelligent presence and does not like to be rushed. I learned that the hard way.
 
I drank a little more and also recycled two times today. I was feeling relaxed and happy, but no enhanced imagination or vision. No significant nausea or salivation, nothing that would require a sitter. I took a nap, but didn't wake up tripping. I feel more confident to up the dose next time. This must have been something like 10 grams.
 
Np ! 5-10 grams is indeed usually more on the mood, you want to sleep or run around, depending on where your spirit needs to work in your body usually.

20-30 grams begins to see some of the dreamworld superimpose on reality :)

It feels very healthy does it ? I like to take 1 gram doses now and then to tonify the system or when I feel a little stiff, it truely is amazing medicine, and it is said that the living mycelium "blood" is much better.

It's funny about me... there is lots of thing I want to try, yet everytime I'm ready to do it, all the money (and job) seems to run away from me, and I'm left with no money to make the extracts to make the money to pay the bills. Too bad I don't have friends like you guys around here... it's very ironic because I'm always left with nothing practical to do...

I have lots of legal herbs, and I can't even work them up, this has been going on for like 3-4 years. Everytime I'm like, yay, I can work this one, lets buy some pyrex pots ; and the postman comes by with a little surprise of a bill.

Oh well ! :roll:
 
Yeah, very health. I felt like exercising, walking around, stretching, and then dozed off.

Doesn't Datura smell delicious? I had a plant in my room when I was a teenager. It had such an incredible flavour! As far as remembering or forgetting the Datura experience, for me they are all very vivid memories (events spread over two days), much more vivid than what I can recall from last year's DMT and mushroom trips.
 
Ahuaeynjxs a dit:
Yes it was a combination of many psychedelics, but the soma was a properly diluted potion (the amanita mycelium "blood" *grape juice eaten by live mycelium* augments potency as you dilute it with water), it is the same amanita, just now our spirits are much more limited and the environement much less magic ; the son of man haven't changed since prehistoric times I feel.

Ah it's ok... but it dosen't matter much for the effect, it will still accelerate your spirit, but the spores will not sprout inside your intestines if you roast them, you also need some sun exposure to give it life ; the rays that it needs go through your belly.

The amanita is the root of soma, and the importance it was given is not exagerated, it is still the highest intelligence and most symbiotical living being on this planet ; it deserves all the praises.

I have not read much about it in the vedas, but they seemed to have been deifying the mushroom like many cults and religions, which I explained in the sun thread is like hijacking the power of the spirit without any concern for DNA ; the amanita does not let this happen anymore, since the age of pisces is coming to an end... It is killing the fishes so to speak... I don't mean to be vague here, but lets say the internet has given it life and voice.

Is this familiar ?


Trust the fungus ! And it is no blind trust, we have our scientific proofs and synchronicities !


PROOF :?: :roll:
 
Of what ? Remember that such a proof might proove extremely, perhaps even untolerably flattering to your ego...
 
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