Money, $

[IJesusChrist]

Fucking hate it.

 

[Jeniger]

I love social welfare/security! I will refuse to live as a slave and encourage everyone to do the same...

Elaborate your hate please....

 

[Guest]

I love social welfare/security! I will refuse to live as a slave and encourage everyone to do the same...

Having to rely on social security is a strange way of conceiving liberty.

 

[Jeniger]

What is your way of concieving liberty? I can be 100% financially independent but as long as i see the world being enslaved ... How can u feel liberated? Everyone must create there own reality and take responsability, i feel i took mine, in the way that i refuse. If humans take the money that they otherwise would have spend on for example war and defense, it would be already one step closer to liberation

Years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind then that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it; and while there is a criminal element, I am of it; and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free. ~ Eugene V. Debs

 

[_Avatar_]

You can live on social security for a short while, but then you got to go to work again, to build character strength, develop skills, social flexibility, accountability and endurance. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a lazy escapist for the rest of your life. And that path doesn't lead to health, happiness or true creativity.

I'm aware though that lots of people who currently do LSD and go to psytrance parties are on some type of social welfare, and don't feel ashamed about that at all. No work means no employer means more facial piercings and no need to wake up early Monday morning. Freedom!

This is a large part of the current "psychedelic scene". No activism whatsoever, just a whole lot of navel-gazing and living the life of a welfare parasite.

 

[Jeniger]

You can live on social security for a short while, but then you got to go to work again, to build character strength, develop skills, social flexibility, accountability and endurance. Otherwise you run the risk of becoming a lazy escapist for the rest of your life. And that path doesn't lead to health, happiness or true creativity.

No activism whatsoever, just a whole lot of navel-gazing and living the life of a welfare parasite.

In my opinion money is the true parasite(in the way it's being divided)... So in your opinion working for a minimum wage and being exploited leads to "build character strength, develop skills, social flexibility, accountability and endurance and to health, happiness or true creativity.
:butthead:

If that conditioned mindset works for u... fine, but not everyone will think that way, and in my eyes it's the opposite of true activism.

If what u say would be true for everyone we would have had a society full of developed, conscious, happy, creative people. I'm sorry to dissapoint u but in my country it's the opposite of that.

As a musician i have never been so much creative since i can devote myself completely to creating music

 

[IJesusChrist]

1. I hate $.

2. Avatar has a point

3. Jeniger has a point (kind of).

I don't know whether its societies conditioning that I dislike people on welfare, or that it is actually morally wrong...

I guess I am no different - I only recently got a job (in last year...) but I'm at college, and since I havn't recieved my first pay check yet, alot of my money comes from grants, but about 1/5 is in loans that I have to pay off... I don't think you should be living off wellfare, I think that is just mooching off the system.

I don't think you should ever become a person of finance either, that is being devils advocate.

Money contains my hate in many, many ways and I won't elaborate till later.

 

[darkwolfunseen]

This is all very subjective. If we didn't use money, than you would say you hated the barter system. I think Avatar made the point that I hate social classism, meaning the distaste of people you think are beneath you because they have less wealth. All in all, money is a neutral facilitator, a sort of great equalizer of most of man's wants. It has no soul, no reasoning, just a purpose, and it is used to make life easier.

All in all I think you just hate inequality due to passed down traditions of wealth being more important (culturally) than an individuals personal capacity or his will to life/liberty/pursuit of a higher understanding.

 

[Hoffmansdream]

So let me be the devil's advocate...

Money. Bills and coins. what is so demoniacal about them? In fact, how would you live without them? Are you ready to move to the countryside and grow your own food? Personnaly, I wouldn't mind, but I'll keep it for later... With my money, I can go to the bakery (yeah I live in France) and get the bread that the baker made for me... I think it's pretty damn cool. That same baker can then use the money he got from his bread and buy clothes or whatever. Easier than barter economy. It has made exchanges possible in the whole world. And they've been the precursor of all cultural revolutions... Impressive.

Money is a tool of the system are society runs.

That's where things start to be nasty. (over) Consommation, selfishness, greed, envy, power, politics and war. There all related to the economy, to the system and to the money. But most of all, there related to man. Money has become the symbol of men's faults.

Moreover, if we're corrupted by the system (or is it the other way around?), we're also full of that chrisitan-based feeling of guilt when it comes to money. In fact maybe more so in France, where you shouldn't feel so proud about making money, should complain about things as much as possible and should even feel guilty just because you're happy, too happy. - yes I might be exagerating a little, so what? It's just to get to my point -

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the way things have gone. I don't accept it, but I don't think it's really about the money. For me, the best way to get out of the systems concept is to see it as what it is : Tokens, pieces of metal, sheets of paper, with which I can buy my bread. Don't care if I have a lot, don't care if not (which is a good idea, since I don't...).
If I started to envy it or be digust by it, I think it would be according to much importance to it.
Ignore it man !

EDIT : Had some telepathy working there, dark wolf...

 

[Jeniger]

All in all, money is a neutral facilitator, a sort of great equalizer of most of man's wants. It has no soul, no reasoning, just a purpose, and it is used to make life easier.

How can u say money is neutral? Do u even know how the money system works? Do u know about the banks?

Money is a tool of the system are society runs.

Money is a tool of the system the banks run, and most people are too blind/naive to see this.

Buying a bread from local economy can be good, but don't forget that the majority of food is provided by poor countries, where people have to work for 50 cents a day in situations we westerners can't even imagine.

Educate yourself and wake up!

 

[_Avatar_]

In my opinion money is the true parasite(in the way it's being divided)...

It doesn't mattter who or what is the truest parasite. Right now you are living a parasitic lifestyle, and you're happily accepting and spending what you consider the true parasite: money. According to your definition of activism, you shouldn't just be unemployed: you should also renounce all interaction with the monetary system, which you don't. You're using the "money is bad" and "the big bad bankers" slogans to justify or distract us from your chosen lifestyle, which boils down to laziness and fear.

We all need money because we all need food, water and a place to live. It's the necessities of the body that drive all of us to work (or cheat the system) so we can buy groceries and so on. Previously we all had to hunt or work the land. Now we've divided duties and money is used as a convenient means of exchange.

So in your opinion working for a minimum wage and being exploited leads to "build character strength, develop skills, social flexibility, accountability and endurance and to health, happiness or true creativity.

I wasn't talking about a minimum wage. You might have to start at a minimum wage (which I also did, a little over a decade ago), but if you're intelligent and enthusiastic you will start earning more and more, especially when you find your passion. It is when you have reached a position where you can express your talent and get paid for it that you are on your way to a life of happiness and creativity. It may take a couple of years before you get there, but it is possible, and very rewarding.

If that conditioned mindset works for u... fine, but not everyone will think that way, and in my eyes it's the opposite of true activism.

I didn't say working is true activism. I said that those who become accustomed to a lazy lifestyle don't do anything to end prohibition, generate academic interest in psychedelic research or spread public awareness about the psychoactives. They just want to party and be "creative".

If what u say would be true for everyone we would have had a society full of developed, conscious, happy, creative people.

Here you turned my argument around. I never claimed that working will automatically make people more mature. Rather that living on welfare doesn't challenge your character and doesn't help you develop a sense of discipline and responsibility.

As a musician i have never been so much creative since i can devote myself completely to creating music

You're not a musician. A musician is someone who makes a living (or at least generates income) making music because he or she manages to entertain an audience. You are simply unemployed and spending your free time making music. There's a difference.

I wonder about your music though. Your blog simply contains remixes of other people's music. Do you actually play musical instruments yourself (string instrument, keyboards)? Can you read notes, or do you simply program music?

Regardless, being a musician or artist doesn't justify living off the state. All great musicians I know of had jobs while they were developing their skills and making records.

 

[Jeniger]

It doesn't mattter who or what is the truest parasite. Right now you are living a parasitic lifestyle, and you're happily accepting and spending what you consider the true parasite: money. According to your definition of activism, you shouldn't just be unemployed: you should also renounce all interaction with the monetary system, which you don't. You're using the "money is bad" and "the big bad bankers" slogans to justify or distract us from your chosen lifestyle, which boils down to laziness and fear.

I have worked for 8 years, untill the point i was so sick and tired of all the exploiting and ignorance around me. As long everyone goes to work everyday and follow the sheep we maintain this unfair divided monetary system. I don't use the big bankers as an excuse for my lifestyle,this monetary system is too unfair in my eyes... i have my principles and ideals.

We all need money because we all need food, water and a place to live. It's the necessities of the body that drive all of us to work (or cheat the system) so we can buy groceries and so on. Previously we all had to hunt or work the land. Now we've divided duties and money is used as a convenient means of exchange

All the money i get i try to spend it as much as possible on organic local fair trade items, so that the money doesn't return again in this unfair devided monetary sytem that easily.

What u see as a devided duty and a convient way,.. i see as slavery, don't forget the third world.

I wasn't talking about a minimum wage. You might have to start at a minimum wage (which I also did, a little over a decade ago), but if you're intelligent and enthusiastic you will start earning more and more, especially when you find your passion. It is when you have reached a position where you can express your talent and get paid for it that you are on your way to a life of happiness and creativity. It may take a couple of years before you get there, but it is possible, and very rewarding.

Not everyone has the luck to be able to make money with his or her passion, it's much more complex then u make it sound. Many people end up with heavy boring jobs were its not easy to be enthousiastic, besides of that i am not the person who wants more and more money, i am the person who cares more about time, time to explore myself .

Rather that living on welfare doesn't challenge your character and doesn't help you develop a sense of discipline and responsibility.

Maybe this is your experience but's its really subjective.

You're not a musician. A musician is someone who makes a living (or at least generates income) making music because he or she manages to entertain an audience. You are simply unemployed and spending your free time making music. There's a difference.

I wonder about your music though. Your blog simply contains remixes of other people's music. Do you actually play musical instruments yourself (string instrument, keyboards)? Can you read notes, or do you simply program music?

Regardless, being a musician or artist doesn't justify living off the state. All great musicians I know of had jobs while they were developing their skills and making records.

I am playing the guitar for 15 years, i play drums for 7 years, Played both instruments and wrote music for several bands for 10 years. Since a few years i am focussing on programming and mixing with sequencers. I was already making music when i was still working... With some music u just know u can never generate an income from it, what u claim is really narrow minded and not true. :roll: People with opinions like this make me very sad.

I think that everyone should be able to do what he wants in life without doing any harm to any living being on this planet. And the welfare institution gives me space(in the way they agree with me) to live my own life without conforming so why should i feel guilty.

 

[Guest]

I think that everyone should be able to do what he wants in life without doing any harm to any living being on this planet. And the welfare institution gives me space(in the way they agree with me) to live my own life without conforming so why should i feel guilty.

Wtf dude, social security means that you take money from other people who are working, money doesn't grow on trees you know?

And actually, social security is supposed to be for the people who can't (ie are physically or mentally unable to) work, not for freakin' hippies who are too lazy to work like everyone else. By doing that, you are indeed a parasit, which means you are 1) not free and 2) a burden to other people.

Now if you don't like the system, it's okay, but if you want to be logic with your so-called values, DON'T DEPEND ON IT BY ASKING FOR SOCIAL SECURITY FFS.

That's just hypocrit.

 

[Jeniger]

Wtf dude, social security means that you take money from other people who are working, money doesn't grow on trees you know?

Come on! It not so simple as u claim it to be, if i wouldnt take the money, they would have spend it on Defense ,war. Money grows in the heads of the banks.

And actually, social security is supposed to be for the people who can't (ie are physically or mentally unable to) work, not for freakin' hippies who are too lazy to work like everyone else. By doing that, you are indeed a parasit, which means you are 1) not free and 2) a burden to other people.

Who says i am a hippy, and who says i am not labeled mentally unable to work.

Is it so hard to understand for you people that only a small percentage of your taxes goes to social welfare and the majority goes to other stuff. And what wrong with taking money and spending it on fair trade.

I bet no one here even cares how much harm is done to beings by the products they consume

 

[Guest]

Yeah right, you're a hero. By being a parasit you made the world a better place, thanks you very much.

Btw, what makes you think that the money we have to spend on you would have been used on weapons? Why couldn't it have been used on things like building a new hospital, financing students, or any other stuff that would have benefited to everyone and not just your lazy ass?

Who says i am a hippy, and who says i am not labeled mentally unable to work.

My point exactly, social security shouldn't be used on people who are fit for work (even if they don't like it).

 

[Guest]

Just think about it, what would happen if everyone started acting like you?

 

[Jeniger]

I'm done

U guys don't read properly, i decline, i dont want to repeat myself again.

 

[Guest]

That's right, you're done, you can't answer to what I pointed out.

I even suspect that you feel guilty about your parasitic way of life and you tried to find some (extremely poor) excuses to justify what can't be justified.

 

[Jeniger]

Yes i really feel guilty... in fact everynight before i go to sleep i have to cry ... :crybaby:

Have fun at work :butthead: ignorance is bliss!

 

[_Avatar_]

Who says i am a hippy, and who says i am not labeled mentally unable to work.

In this discussion we're assuming you're mentally and physically able to work. If you were not, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your position is "I will refuse to live as a slave and encourage everyone to do the same..." This discussion is based on that statement.

As long everyone goes to work everyday and follow the sheep

Going to work has nothing to do with following the sheep, but being realistic about human necessities.

we maintain this unfair divided monetary system.

I don't think that's relevant to this discussion, because your living off welfare doesn't change anything about this. It's even unfair to those who do work, and can make things more difficult for those who actually need and deserve welfare (see below).

All the money i get i try to spend it as much as possible on organic local fair trade items, so that the money doesn't return again in this unfair devided monetary sytem that easily.

That's very noble, but there are thousands of people who do the same thing with the money they earned by working. In fact I know quite a few psychonauts who have regular jobs and do all or most of their shopping in health food stores.

What u see as a devided duty and a convient way,.. i see as slavery, don't forget the third world.

That's not the division that I was talking about. And besides: two wrongs don't make a right. Just because there is slavery, injustice and war in the world, doesn't mean your decision to live off our tax money is right.

Not everyone has the luck to be able to make money with his or her passion

It's not a matter of luck, but of self-determination and perseverance. But actually, I never said everyone will be able to make money with his or her passion. What I said was: "...if you're intelligent and enthusiastic you will start earning more and more, especially when you find your passion."

Many people end up with heavy boring jobs were its not easy to be enthousiastic

Well, I'm not talking about all people. I'm specifically talking about psychonauts and those in the psytrance scene.

besides of that i am not the person who wants more and more money, i am the person who cares more about time, time to explore myself

We're not talking about more and more money, we're talking about paying for your basic expenses: food, drink and shelter. That should be your personal responsibility, not that of the state and its tax-payers (me included).

With some music u just know u can never generate an income from it

That's why many people make music as a hobby, creating the music in their weekends or in their free evenings.

what u claim is really narrow minded and not true. :roll: People with opinions like this make me very sad.

I'm just expressing what most tax-payers are thinking about the position you're taking. Aside from this general opinion, I'm particularly disturbed that this attitude has pervaded the psytrance scene.

I think that everyone should be able to do what he wants in life without doing any harm to any living being on this planet. And the welfare institution gives me space(in the way they agree with me) to live my own life without conforming so why should i feel guilty.

But it is because of people like you that governments have to become more strict and controlling with regards to welfare. Because of people like you those who really need welfare have a much harder time getting and maintaining one. In the US they are now considering random drug testing for those who are on welfare. With so many hippies "encouraging everyone to live off welfare, because the system is so bad and there are wars and slave labor" you'll eventually have such random drug tests in your country as well.