How can you gain insight from a drug?

[Caduceus Mercurius]

I think zezt and CM are criticizing the people using the method and not the method itself. That,s why i propose to separate these two things (method and people using the method). I think Zezt and CM are bias against the method because they do not like Jan Irvin and the people using the method.

No, I was already familiar with the logical fallacies long before I heard about Jan Irvin's interest in the Trivium, and have always had mixed feelings about them. On the one hand they're extremely useful (as you point out particularly in the context of talking and writing, or more specifically in the context of debate). But I don't feel logic is sufficient to unlock the secrets of existence. For that one requires a more existential approach, involving things like meditation, psychedelic initiation and life itself (the school of hard knocks).

HeartCore stated that he doesn't take psychedelics anymore because now he has the Trivium, which I think is also Jan Irvin's position. I don't see why it should be one or the other. Psychedelics grant access to a state of mind that is not available through the Trivium, and vice versa. I'm for a multi-dimensional approach to gaining insights: reading, studying (language, mathematics, philosophy, logic, psychology and so on), meditating, dancing, tripping, relating, being creative... Anything that helps you look at things in a new light.

 

[Finarfin]

The trivium is more than just the logical fallacies.

I agree with you CM.
I also don,t understand why it should be one or the other. I am also for a multi dimensional approach and a multi dimensional approach is perfectly possible using the trivium.

is it fair to say you are not criticizing the trivium system, but are criticizing heartcore view point?

 

[Finarfin]

I think people can gain some insight from psychedelic experiences. Studies have shown a psychedelic experience can be healing and help people to deal with depression, addiction or the fear of dying.
Studies also have shown that mushrooms and other psychedelic can bring about a mystical or spiritual experience that people may find beneficial.
The insight and the healing one may get from a psychedelic experience is not the same thing as intellectual insight.
I do agree with CM we can have both. People are not just there intellect. We have emotions, we have a physical body, we have a psyche.
I am for a multi dimensional (or holistic) approach.

I do fink the trivium is useful. This thread however is not about the trivium, so if people want to discuss the trivium let them open up a new thread.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

The trivium is more than just the logical fallacies.

Yes, I know. Grammar and rhetoric are the other two aspects of the trivium. And as you may be aware, I value those greatly (with rhetoric being about expressing oneself CLEARLY rather than persuasively; I'm not fond of rhetoric used for manipulative purposes).

is it fair to say you are not criticizing the trivium system, but are criticizing heartcore view point?

Well, IF this is HeartCore's view, then yes, I was criticizing that.

I don't see why I would need to criticize the trivium itself. I'm simply saying it's a limited set of methods to obtain clarity. Aside from the trivium there's the quadrivium (geometry, astronomy, arithmetic and music), and beyond that there is the path of mysticism (meditation, techno-shamanism, magick etc.).

 

[Finarfin]

Yes, I know. Grammar and rhetoric are the other two aspects of the trivium. And as you may be aware, I value those greatly (with rhetoric being about expressing oneself CLEARLY rather than persuasively; I'm not fond of rhetoric used for manipulative purposes).


Well, IF this is was HeartCore's view, then yes, I was criticizing that.

I don't see why I would need to criticize the trivium itself. I'm simply saying it's a limited set of methods to obtain clarity. Aside from the trivium there's the quadrivium (geometry, astronomy, arithmetic and music), and beyond that there is the path of mysticism (meditation, techno-shamanism, magick etc.).

agree

 

[zezt]

I presented a good argument against the trivial, I mean trivium at the tragedy&hope forum where they deify it. But when I began questioning it using my logic, I got freakin ganged up on, and then when Jan's mate heard me call them a cult he totally banned me, and wouldn't let me retrieve my efforts--ie., just being allowed in again to copy and paste the stuff I'd typed. That is shitty behaviour

 

[sobriquet]

Methoxetamine gives me lots of beautiful insight. The dissociation creates a space between yourself and your thoughts/actions so that you're a detached observer, as if you're in a cloud watching thoughts unfold. It's reallllly nice. The first time I took it, the dose was too high and i ended up still in bed lucid dreaming about 4 hours through weird vortex tunnels at the speed of light. I just remember this sensation of dropping forward hyperspeed and everything flying around me. i couldn't focus enough to create a specific environment to travel through, but i was able to participate in other ways, changing the direction and angles of view. The next time, and every time since, i was fully awake and had a lot of energy. I felt objective in thought and able to see through the chaotic loops my mind gets into that lead to anxiety and depression. I had great epiphanies about how to deal with relationship tensions and things in the past that were still haunting my subconscious. very theraputic. also some trip reports state that you loose balance but with small doses I seem to become more graceful in movement, it's fun to dance on.

 

[zezt]

I would be very careful though as it is not a psychedelic.

 

[Kmn]

Hi sorry to post this here, but this thread seemed like something where I could ask this, since it is all about learning.
Ok here is my question, I'm sensitive to drugs, really sensitive, I suffer a bit from chronic anxiety combined with sleeping problems, to threat me (since I am really anxious) a doctor prescribed me invega, but I really reacted bad to the thing, I won't explain since I am not looking for medical advice, what matters is that after a while I was in such a bad state that I had to stop the drug, but for the next 6 months I had very lucid dreams, like visions, most of them taught me things or made me think twice about bad things I done in the past (like a girl who suffered my revenge once), but what matters is that in one of those months (and after obsessing with the actual financial crisis) I wrote a really good book about economy, it wasn't published yet because I am giving it the final touch, but every single person who read it told me it is so good it should make envy to some economists (like 20 people read it and they told it was really good), and what is even more cool is because I read a lot and I am intelligent so those dreams also pointed historical examples in real life that I could use (that I knew already but wasn't associating), so when I wrote it, it fell really natural I barely needed research at all, my subconscious gave me all the answers. And here is the thing, what I am looking for is something psychedelic that gives me one of those dreams for one night, just during one night, nothing addictive, nothing traceable or that can't do me harm or that can make me harm myself (like salvia), that doesn't mess with my anxiety medication (I know it can give me anxiety but I don't care), with no side effects, legal, and finally that I can take alone with no one knowing I'm not going to jump out of a window thinking I am going to fly (again Salvia). By the way I live in Portugal so the laws for use of drugs are relaxed here. So what could you recommend for me? Thank for any help. By the way, I am just trying to learn something for my new book that is all, and yes I plan to do research before using such methods.

 

[Abej^a G.]

you can search the church of Santo Daime in your country... they will explain everything to you!! ^^
if you don't know what is it, you can search in the forum or in the web. they work with a potent medicine, the Ayahuasca.

 

[Kmn]

you can search the church of Santo Daime in your country... they will explain everything to you!! ^^
if you don't know what is it, you can search in the forum or in the web. they work with a potent medicine, the Ayahuasca.

I will look for it, but just for you to know I am agnostic and I don't pretend to change it, also I don't need something too much potent just to give me a dream. Thank you.

 

[soyousay99]

Totally disagree there Substances provide channels/portals/information fields.. Try not thinking that is where the real magic is.. thinking is a mindfull/ego interpretation of the information being presented. Most people never dose high enough to get the true effects. They stick their toe in the water but never jump in.. If you take enough of some psychedelics ie mushys your mind will be forced to take a backseat.. In my perception there is another primary form of awareness that presents itself at this point. The mind/ego is always confused as being the primary form of awareness but it is simply a projection from somewhere else and is actually your second form of awareness ..

 

[jonka77]

If the sitter never took entheogen, would it matter? Would such a friend, vs. psychotherapist or shaman, know what to do, if things get "terrifying"? Just wondering....