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IJesusChrist

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For those of us in the US I'm going to write a post soon about what it really means to eat healthy.

I've been taking this nutrition class at my school and it's awesome. Basically answers every question I ever had on the food and food system.

got class right now, but wanted to say this! BE PREPARED.
(the movie food inc will be a great lee-way into this topic)
 
Must have been the same class my mom took. Every time i see her she mentions it.

Should be interesting. Im moving into a new place, in a new town, and i plan on trying out a new diet along with it. Im sure theres ALOT of room for improvement. :lol: :x :roll: :rolleyes:
 
Grand paradigm that drives everything you ever buy in a U.S. food store (in most cases - those of us who eat organic this does not apply):

The US food system is driven by the idea to PRODUCE AS MUCH FOOD AS POSSIBLE, AT THE GREATEST EFFICIENCY POSSIBLE, AT A VERY LOW COST.

Now, you can easily see the argument of "what is wrong with that?" - that is reductionist logic. Everything you eat effects your body and effects the earth - every bit of it, so much so that you, yourself, may in fact be the reason of an extinction, and are especially responsible for your diabetes, heart disease, cholesterol, obesity, kidney / liver failure, etc.

As you can see by the above paradigm of our current system, one very, very important factor is completely omitted: Health. Where does our health play into this? Where does the environmental health play into this scheme?

They don't.


The government does not subsidize health foods at any rate near corn or soy bean production. There is very small help for organic farmers or farmers that produce fruits and vegetables, and in more cases than not, large scale fruit and vegie producers actually get penalized for not selling corn and soy.

There are many reasons why corn and soy are the most farmed and most subsidized (and all tie back to the original paradigm):
1. They have been studied the most, so they are very well understood.
2. They can be made into a variety of products - making their home in many different types of foods.
3. They can be stored for long periods of time.
4. They can be shipped over seas to sell.
6. They can be fed to cattle

In fact, these reasons are so important in the eyes of the government that they have subsidized them so that the U.S. can actually sell corn for less than it costs to produce.

The outcome of this? Very low food prices in super markets - anything with "High fructose corn syrup" or "Starch" or "Soybean oil" or "Soy protein" etc is so cheap actually because of subsidies - subsidies that come out of your taxes.

At quick glance, this seems good! Cheap food. But thinking about it more - you actually pay to get prices down. Does that make sense? How does a consumer benefit?

They don't.


Nobody benefits from corn subsidies except 2 groups:
1. Agribusiness - You essentially pay the government to lower prices of production of corn so that cattle farms and food companies can buy at a very low price and still sell at a normal price. We, via the "Farm Bill", end up paying indirectly to large farm companies (especially meat and dairy) so they can make more profit.
2. Foreign countries - The US, since we can sell corn at below the cost of production, export a lot of our corn and soy in disaster relief and to third world countries. Farmers are encouraged to produce surplus so that even though we have no direct need for it, we can ship it to third world countries for profit, but also political gains. Making international relations at the cost of the tax payer who has no idea.

Purchasing anything with derivatives from corn, soy, or feed-lot cows DIRECTLY funds this way of thinking. These companies have no reason to promote health and nutrition - partly due to our ignorance, but partly due to no gained profit.

WE must make the choice to either sustain this unsustainable practice (which has an incredible amount of decaying affects on the environment) or to choose free-range, sustainable, healthy, nutritious food.
 
Ive been hearing the words 'free-range' alot lately. what exactly does it mean? and ive heard some pretty bad things about companies like perdue and the equilivant. My aunt knows a small group of strictly free-range, and organic farmers, and shes told me that you would be shocked if you saw how much trouble they get just for doing things diffrently.

that to me, is barbaric. if anything they should be commended for the service and extra effort.

but what do i do about it? shop at health food stores?
isnt that stuff more expensive?

I want to support a good cause, and eat healthier again, but it seems like everything that is cheap and affordable, is also pretty unhealthy.

I was thinking of adding alot of rice and veggies to my diet like the chineese.
When i was in china, i ate the most food ive ever eatin. and consistantly for awhile.
Yet it was all so damn healthy, i coulda ate like that for weeks and not have gained a pound. (im not talking about american chineese :lol: )
What sort of easy and affordable diet changes could you reccomend?
 
Frozen veggies (some say they aren't healthy though) are cheap as hell. You can get brocolli, asparagus, green peas and beans, beans, corn, black beans, you name it - all very very cheap (like under 2 dollars for a weeks worth).

Rice

Eggs (organic) - 4$ for a dozen (sure it is double the price, but it is only 4 dollars) but you shouldn't have more than 6 eggs a week.

Spaghetti with organic sauce (yeah sauce is kinda spendy - 4-6$ for 2 meals.

Chips n salsa (all salsa is basically "natural" organic) - but pick out the ones that say it.

I eat tofu tacos a lot, they are exactly like regular tacos if you add the seasoning (that is where all the flavor is anyways). Got sick of them though cause I ate it for a month straight heh.

I eat a lot of salmon... close to every day.

My favorite meal right now is salmon + rice + 1 egg with soy sauce. So fucking good. MMMMM :)

It is all a lot more expensive, but I don't understand that arguement any more.

If you were talking about a computer or, you know a new commodity I'd understand - you don't need to buy that brand new 5000$ 3D TV, or that 8 GHz laptop or whatever - sufficing for something a little less is probably smarter. But food? Food is what you are! You ARE what you eat! Literally. So if you want to eat cheap shitty food to save some money that really puts in to perspective how you view yourself.
 
i like your arguement ijc, i have no intent of knocking it, but i would like to add that in addition to everything you've said about corn and soy, another one of the main reasons they are so versatile, is because they are the most genetically modified items out there!

their shelf life, yield and subsidy by the government is all thanks to the hard work that the scientists have done to hack up just about every gene in the organism short of making them glow in the dark**! they have created strains which are resistant to mold, making them store longer, and have tweaked genes that make the yields per plant astronomical in comparison to pre- GM technology.

now i don't know if you've gotten on this bandwagon yet or what, but it is quite like you said, "you are what you eat." which personally brings my next thought to "well, if i am eating food with butchered genes, what's going to happen to me??" and the truth is, we just don't know yet. there hasn't been enough time to tell...

lead paint was popular. couple decades later, lawsuits flying like bullets over child retardation. asbestos was invented. 20 years later, adverts by lawyers promoting lawsuits over mesothelioma. ephedrine. suing over heart failure. now it's anti-depressants and birth defects (a whole other story,) i saw a commercial by a law firm just this morning.

thing is, established science is brilliant, but when it's not time tested, it's definitely sketchy. there's a lot of negative attention being brought to GM foods, and they haven't even been around that long at all. so i am more than willing to shell out a little extra cash (on organics) as insurance, so that i can live to see the results without any worry or regret.

chopped up dna- you are what you eat? :shock:

**
Voir la pièce jointe 5321
 
trick a dit:
Ive been hearing the words 'free-range' alot lately. what exactly does it mean? and ive heard some pretty bad things about companies like perdue and the equilivant.

free range is a term that describes the animals habitat. it means that the animal was given x amount of outdoor space to roam around and graze and mingle with the others. non-free range would mean it lives in a cage that is roughly the size of it's body it's entire life. the things you are hearing about perdue are most likely in relation to the term "natural" that they use, a la that they claim that they use no growth hormone. well that's all well and good, but, what most people don't know is that it has been banned by the fda to use growth hormone at all in any poultry production... so it's not that they are lying, it's just that they are in essence, scamming, selling people on points of misinformation... :rolleyes: no company today is allowed to sell poultry that has growth hormone, but not every company pushes it like perdue. natural is a vague term that has no standards for regulation, whereas, the term "organic" does.

trick a dit:
but what do i do about it? shop at health food stores?
isnt that stuff more expensive?

I want to support a good cause, and eat healthier again, but it seems like everything that is cheap and affordable, is also pretty unhealthy.

definitely depends on what you're buying. if one buys pre-made meals, organic or not, they are going to cost more hands down than if one simply bought the ingredients and made it (or an equivalent) themselves. every time. so, buying fresh raw organic veggies, even at a health food store, will still be cheaper than buying pre made anything at a conventional store. i made the switch about a year ago, and since then gained a few simple recipes with tons of room for variation, and i'd never go back. basically, if you can sautee veggies, grill/roast/pan-fry, and cook grains, you need little else beyond a spice collection (which just takes time) to be cooking gourmet meals on a regular basis, for a fraction of the cost of a restaurant.

the real places to go though are farmers markets. these places generally have organics at a cheaper cost than the GM veggies available at conventional stores. when i started shopping at them i thought, man, im gonna have to drive an hour (to decatur, just south of atlanta) everytime i want some cheap produce, but quickly heard through the grapevine after talking about this with colleagues, coworkers, and friends that they were all over the area i live in. all that takes is a little networking. most places have farmers markets now, it's become a bit of a fad. and not only are they cheaper, but you support local agriculture, reducing pollution and supporting small businesses to increase competition in the market that in turn can help reduce prices of food overall.

trick a dit:
I was thinking of adding alot of rice and veggies to my diet like the chineese.
When i was in china, i ate the most food ive ever eatin. and consistantly for awhile.
Yet it was all so damn healthy, i coulda ate like that for weeks and not have gained a pound. (im not talking about american chineese :lol: )
What sort of easy and affordable diet changes could you reccomend?

:D
grains are extraordinarily cheap. 1.50-2.50 a lb. the trick is to buy these in bulk and to buy them as unprocessed as possible. im talking unhulled grains as well as brown rices(organic of course). grains combined with legumes (beans/seeds/nuts) provide "complete proteins", reducing the need for expensive meat. and one step further, if one were to buy organic, then they can sprout these (i made a topic in this section on it) for additional nutrients, and increased digestability. (removing gas associated with this food group) :D

another thing is veggies. all veggies are good, but there are veggies that are more nutrient dense than others. for a listing of veggies according to nutrient density, look up the "ANDI score" (aggregate nutrient density index) for a better picture. also, variety in color and texture is another good way to get everything one needs. i must admit that i tend to focus on green though as these tend to have the highest nutrient density. things like collards, kale, spinach, etc. but experiment and see what you like. garlic can make just about any veggie amazing.
 
Allusion, you are right - corn and soy - they were engineered to be resistant to herbicides. Farmers can not totally douse their fields in herbicide and their corn or soy will grow, where as a wild corn or soy would die. They are also engineered to produce the resistant gene to "BT toxin" which comes from bacilius tharengensis (sp?) is a toxin that kills worms that would normally eat the plant as well. Actually this might only be with tobacco. . . (the bt resistance)

I'm taking a biotechnology class for this, coupling that with my health foods class I know ALL about the industry. The science of how they do it, and how they do it socially, economically, etc.

But!!! Most importantly - you are not what you eat as far as this regard. Genetically modified organisms are safe to eat (well, I mean - their DNA is as safe as any other plant). You are affected by the DNA of a GMO just as much as the DNA in that broccoli you eat or those apples. That argument is not legitimate. The real arguments for GMO's are more along the lines of biodiversity loss (coupled with epidemics that can occur from this).

South corn blight is a good example. All the corn was modified to be a certain male sterile plant (hard to explain why in a quick manner) but the modification of the gene actually made it extremely susceptible to a blight virus, which wiped out tons of corn! The US actually spends BILLIONS on counter acting bio-terrorism (it has never happened - but they are so paranoid it will because all the plants are clones).

Imagine if someone came up with a virus that killed all the corn in the US? Or (and this is possible, unfortunately) implanted DNA into corn fields that possibly produces some kind of toxin? The bacteria "Agrobacterium Tumefaciens" can actually inject DNA into plants, causing them to be genetically modified (this is how they get GMO tobacco). If you placed a very long gene for the biosynthesis of, say, anthrax in an agrobacterium tumefacians and spread that along some corn fields??? Not. Good.

Even worse would be if it was... well I won't go into it.

HAveing a clonal system of all the US agriculture's plants isn't so much bad for our health as it is extremely dangerous as far as a mass wipeout would be a concern.
 
But!!! Most importantly - you are not what you eat as far as this regard. Genetically modified organisms are safe to eat (well, I mean - their DNA is as safe as any other plant). You are affected by the DNA of a GMO just as much as the DNA in that broccoli you eat or those apples. That argument is not legitimate.

i understand that that is the popular mainstream concern - biodiversity loss that is. but can you really back this statement ^ up with any science though? i doubt it, as there really hasn't been enough time to make speculations like that.

there has been talk however (in the scientific community) that GM organisms (botched) dna may interact negatively with our dna. i think a lot of it comes down to a matter of (electro) magnetics. normal organic dna is harmonic (in electric frequency), whereas GMO's dna has been dissected and rearranged - and so it is no longer harmonic.

understanding how (electro) magnetics interact in normal cell division sheds light on this view of GMO's.

i can provide links if necessary.
 
I'd like to see these links, they never really told us about that electromagnetic thing at uni. only once was it mentioned that DNA is somewhat charged.

I saw a documentary about the whole genetic engineering thing, and it said that 95% of the scientists working in that field are being sponsored by companies, which blows my mind. 95%!
I should research that number for once, it seems completely off the chain.
 
Allusion a dit:
But!!! Most importantly - you are not what you eat as far as this regard. Genetically modified organisms are safe to eat (well, I mean - their DNA is as safe as any other plant). You are affected by the DNA of a GMO just as much as the DNA in that broccoli you eat or those apples. That argument is not legitimate.

i understand that that is the popular mainstream concern - biodiversity loss that is. but can you really back this statement ^ up with any science though? i doubt it, as there really hasn't been enough time to make speculations like that.

there has been talk however (in the scientific community) that GM organisms (botched) dna may interact negatively with our dna. i think a lot of it comes down to a matter of (electro) magnetics. normal organic dna is harmonic (in electric frequency), whereas GMO's dna has been dissected and rearranged - and so it is no longer harmonic.

understanding how (electro) magnetics interact in normal cell division sheds light on this view of GMO's.

i can provide links if necessary.

Please provide links cause that sounds a bit misunderstood.

ALL genetically modified organisms to date are modified with already existing genes. They are genes from other animals/plants.

Your body cannot tell the difference between GMO genetics and "Natural" genetics. How could it? They are both structurally the same and the electromagnetic properties of each will be identical. I promise. :wink: I think there is a lot of stigma and trying to find out exactly what is "wrong" with GMO's - It just doesn't feel right. So there are many theories of what is wrong with it.

I will take back the comment, however of "you are not what you eat" - because you are what you eat, obviously.

Secondly. If GMO plants negatively affected you, then so would cauliflower, corn, soy, and other plants in general. There is no reason to say that GMO plants (IN GENERAL) are more dangerous than any other plant (AS FAR AS THE GENES GO). I will make it clear, however, that corn that makes BT toxin - I would rather not eat. The genes themselves don't scare me, its the proteins and biosynthates that scare me. Genes are genes. If the genes were different, the plant/animal wouldn't duplicate them, and the plant would die. Since they are genes - they aren't any different than natural genes, simply inserted into the plant, you can't fear the genes themselves.
 
IJesusChrist a dit:
But!!! Most importantly - you are not what you eat as far as this regard. Genetically modified organisms are safe to eat

IJesusChrist a dit:
Your body cannot tell the difference between GMO genetics and "Natural" genetics. How could it? They are both structurally the same and the electromagnetic properties of each will be identical. I promise. :wink:

Secondly. If GMO plants negatively affected you, then so would cauliflower, corn, soy, and other plants in general. There is no reason to say that GMO plants (IN GENERAL) are more dangerous than any other plant (AS FAR AS THE GENES GO).

they aren't any different than natural genes, simply inserted into the plant, you can't fear the genes themselves.

will you please stop trying to post your opinion as fact? i personally find it annoying and it does not further the discussion at all for anybody trying to be informed on these issues. retracting statements later does not make them any less obstructing, it just muddies the thread.

anyways, you will have to clarify your 3rd statement for me. do you mean to say that "if GMO's negatively affect one, then so would (non GMO) cauliflower, corn, and soy" ?

if so, it is already like i have said before, twice in this thread, that there hasn't been enough time dedicated to this to fully understand it. so in this regard, it is important to see and hear what is going on in the scientific community until more conclusive evidence comes out. ignoring the issue as "its fine" until somebody proves something contrary is not the wisest route in my opinion... :|

links and further information on how GMO's are harmful, listed below.
 
(more about monsanto)
http://planetsave.com/2009/06/18/report ... ur-health/

(about negative health effects of GM foods, with many external studies cited)
http://www.aaemonline.org/gmopost.html

excerpt from above link (with resources):
Despite these differences, safety assessment of GM foods has been based on the idea of "substantial equivalence" such that "if a new food is found to be substantially equivalent in composition and nutritional characteristics to an existing food, it can be regarded as safe as the conventional food."4 However, several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with GM food consumption including infertility, immune dysregulation, accelerated aging, dysregulation of genes associated with cholesterol synthesis, insulin regulation, cell signaling, and protein formation, and changes in the liver, kidney, spleen and gastrointestinal system.

There is more than a casual association between GM foods and adverse health effects. There is causation as defined by Hill's Criteria in the areas of strength of association, consistency, specificity, biological gradient, and biological plausibility.5 The strength of association and consistency between GM foods and disease is confirmed in several animal studies.2,6,7,8,9,10,11

"The several thousand field trials over the last 20 years for genes aimed at increasing operational or intrinsic yield (of crops) indicate a significant undertaking. Yet none of these field trials have resulted in increased yield in commercialized major food/feed crops, with the exception of Bt corn."12 However, it was further stated that this increase is largely due to traditional breeding improvements.

(more health effects)
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/GMOSandHumanHealth.php

(a petition signed by over 800 World Scientists against the use of GMO's)
http://www.i-sis.org.uk/list.php

(about dna harmonics)
 
Ps important edit: When I said they were not as dangerous, I was referring to the GENES themselves, not their products. Eating the GMO GENES aren't going to do much to you - they get broken down too quick by the body. There are some studies out there, though, that show that micro RNA's bind, and can cause miniscule changes (almost negligible) to cells. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. Obviously if you have a plant making a toxin it's going to affect you, the genes themselves do very little.

Allusion in order to avoid your condemning of my posts I will only post sources from now on, a long with my opinions.

BACKGROUND: Genetically modified organisms have a number of processes involved in their fruition (hehe), many processes can lead to their final result (the GMO). The final result is the original organism's DNA in addition to another organism's DNA, or a silencing of a gene in the original.

DNA that is identified as "good" for a plant or organism can be cut out of the organism's genome by DNA Nucleases.

DNA Nucleases (Nucle = Nucleic acid, Ase = cut) are engineered to attach to a specific segment of DNA in a organism's Genome. They cut at a specific site. If enough information is know about an organism genome, two cuts can be made fairly well so that the internal fragment holds 1 gene. The following picture shows how EcoR1 works (a nuclease that is found in ecoli). If ANY GENOME has the sequence GAATTC (red) EcoR1 attaches, and nucleases (cuts) the DNA into to segments:

eco.jpg


As before, if this is done twice, you can cut out a small piece of genetic material, that encodes for one protein/enzyme, etc. Now with one small segment of the genome cut, you can purify it and extract it and make a bunch of it (by a process of PCR). Once you have this small gene that, for example, allows a plant to make more Vitamin B, you must somehow get it into the plant.

This process uses ligases. These are the opposite of Nucleases, in that they ligate (glue together) two strands of DNA. Cutting the plant genome in which you would like to add a gene that produces more vitamin B in a plant, you would again cut the gene in two places, and use a ligase to bring the plants genome + the Vitamin B gene together:

440px-Ligation.svg.png


Some key notes. Both the plant genome and the original vitamin B gene are natural. They both came from nature, and still perform their natural functions, however, the combination and the sequence of the new genome has never been found on earth before, and probably would never exist in the future (just from probability). In this scenario, I will argue in my opinion, that there is no additional danger from the GMO than from the original plant + the vitamin B gene (and since, in this case, we eat plants with vitamin B, there is ..little.. concern that the gene for vitamin B is harmful to us).

I think it is highly unlikely, nearly improbable, that the sequence change from the plant's original genome to the sequence of the GMO changes the healthiness of the plant's consumption as a food product. Especially since we have already been eating both genes, just never in the same plant at once. There are, of course, complex effects; how does the plant deal with additional vitamin B? Where does the extra energy to produce vitamin B come from, and how does that affect the plant? Is there some way this can be bad to our health. IN THIS CASE my opinion, would be that probably not, however, lots of detail would be needed in how the plant uses its energy, the biosynthesis of vitamin B, how it deals with excess vitamin B, etc.

In another case, where we go through the same process, but this time create the plant resistant to disease, herbicide, or pesticide, I would say there is a good probability that something bad may happen. I think we have gotten lucky so far with the BT corn and Round-up ready soy beans - I'm surprised nothing catastrophic has happened yet.

But I'm not worried about our health, I'm more worried about environmental affects, biodiversity loss, and ecological effects (such as pollen infesting other native species). These are real concerns to me, and I rank these in higher danger than human-health-consumption concerns.

A study was done (with shaky practice / evidence) that in Oxaca mexico, there was found to be BT corn growing. Mexico had never bought any BT corn. It is either that someone had smuggled it across the border, or the long reign of our BT corn in the midwest has had such a strong prevalence that the pollen has found its way to central america.

Another study (with shaky evidence) found that monarch butterfly caterpillars can die from corn pollen on the Milkweed plant. Obviously this is a bad result.

I am curious to see what the ecological concerns would be for Vitamin A rice (golden rice). A rice bioengineered to produce more vitamin A (an almost insignificant amount to the daily diet).

Lastly, of course is biodiversity loss, which increases danger of drought, flood, saline soil. This is my greatest concern. This is where we start to destroy the complex system, and start reducing it to mechanical counterparts. Creating giant fields of clones of corn - very fucking bad idea. Raises crop yield, but one new "super bug", blight, disease, or even bioterrorism = fucked ourselves.

_ I am currently reading your references _
 
Good references!

I'll keep researching this stuff. I wasn't aware they had found BT toxin affects on animals, but I assumed it existed.

as far as the youtube video, sorry I can't take that seriously.
 
yeah, I have ambiguos feelings about the youtube video too. on the one hand I think that he's the kind of scientist I'd like to see in our world, because he certainly doesn't seem afraid to part with the scientific orthodoxy of double blind tests and all that rap, and on the other hand lots of things sound a bit unfounded, taken a bit out of thin air. I haven't watched much of it so far. what I didn't get was how exactly the golden ratio was employed in the DNA.
what I found very intuitive is when he talks about the context-richness stuff, i.e. letters compromising words, words sentences, sentences paragraphs, chapters and a whole book. this wave on a wave on wave thing hits quite a chord with me too, it is a pattern that I found in many beautiful things, most notably music actually, and natural cycles.
 
this wave on a wave on wave thing hits quite a chord with me too, it is a pattern that I found in many beautiful things, most notably music actually, and natural cycles.

the main point that i wished to convey with that is a bit more complex, but simply put (because im at work) is that if you cut out a part of that wave, which is flowing harmonically, and insert some foreign "note" in it's place, you may have something that resembles the original, but it is no longer harmonic. imagine taking a few "G" notes out of a musical composition and replacing them with "F". it's not going to sound good.

i have something to say about this as well, but i dont have time now
When I said they were not as dangerous, I was referring to the GENES themselves, not their products. Eating the GMO GENES aren't going to do much to you - they get broken down too quick by the body. There are some studies out there, though, that show that micro RNA's bind, and can cause miniscule changes (almost negligible) to cells. Sorry I didn't make that more clear. Obviously if you have a plant making a toxin it's going to affect you, the genes themselves do very little.

but thanks for the additional info. i agree as well that the external factors concerning GMO's are very important to consider. more later
 
Allusion a dit:
the main point that i wished to convey with that is a bit more complex, but simply put (because im at work) is that if you cut out a part of that wave, which is flowing harmonically, and insert some foreign "note" in it's place, you may have something that resembles the original, but it is no longer harmonic. imagine taking a few "G" notes out of a musical composition and replacing them with "F". it's not going to sound good.

I completely understand this argument, but it is apples and oranges. No mechanism has been proven or even alluded to that this type of complexity exists with DNA. . . I just don't see the plausibility of "disrupting" any "harmonics" of a genome...

Beyond that - I'd just like to say that when possible I eat no GMO's. I'm strongly against eating them, and won't support them as food. I do, however, support the notion that we can use them on medicinal plants (what I Would like to research, actually).

Plant makes anti-cancer compound A, but makes about 1/10,000 of the required amount for a treatment. GMO -> plant makes 1/2 treatment. . . We don't eat the plant. We purify the product. I think (in my limited vision/knowledge) that this is... OK, and has a place in our future.
 
IJC a dit:
Allusion in order to avoid your condemning of my posts I will only post sources from now on, a long with my opinions.
i don't condemn your posts, i condemn opinions about clearly open (scientific community-acknowledged) debate topics being presented like they are facts which insist that the debate topic is not valid. regardless of who posts them.

No mechanism has been proven or even alluded to that this type of complexity exists with DNA

what, you think i just pulled that out of my ass? :? sure it has. you don't want to watch the video, so what can i say? don't make your loss into everyone elses...

proven, no. you all know my opinion about scientific "facts" anyways, but that's not the point. there is a large pile of evidence to be examined and none of it is dependent on this one man. it's common scientific evidence. does simply looking at the pieces with a hope of trying to fit them together make someone crazy? no. so why discredit a man before you've heard what he has to say?

When I said they were not as dangerous, I was referring to the GENES themselves, not their products. Eating the GMO GENES aren't going to do much to you - they get broken down too quick by the body. There are some studies out there, though, that show that micro RNA's bind, and can cause miniscule changes (almost negligible) to cells

I just don't see the plausibility of "disrupting" any "harmonics" of a genome.

not that i expect anyone here to know this, but here it is, it's already common knowledge among scientists in the field (and you if you read the 2nd link).

Despite these differences, safety assessment of GM foods has been based on the idea of "substantial equivalence" such that "if a new food is found to be substantially equivalent in composition and nutritional characteristics to an existing food, it can be regarded as safe as the conventional food."4 However, several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with GM food consumption including infertility, immune dysregulation, accelerated aging, dysregulation of genes associated with cholesterol synthesis, insulin regulation, cell signaling, and protein formation, and changes in the liver, kidney, spleen and gastrointestinal system.

There is more than a casual association between GM foods and adverse health effects. There is causation as defined by Hill's Criteria in the areas of strength of association, consistency, specificity, biological gradient, and biological plausibility.5 The strength of association and consistency between GM foods and disease is confirmed in several animal studies.


(reference "4" is: Society of Toxicology. The safety of genetically modified foods produced through biotechnology. Toxicol. Sci. 2003; 71:2-8.

reference "5" is: Hill, AB. The environment and disease: association or causation? Proceeding of the Royal Society of Medicine 1965; 58:295-300.

these are both from the second link that was already provided and quoted. c'mon now...

Specificity of the association of GM foods and specific disease processes is also supported. Multiple animal studies show significant immune dysregulation, including upregulation of cytokines associated with asthma, allergy, and inflammation. 6,11 Animal studies also show altered structure and function of the liver, including altered lipid and carbohydrate metabolism as well as cellular changes that could lead to accelerated aging and possibly lead to the accumulation of reactive oxygen species (ROS). 7,8,10 Changes in the kidney, pancreas and spleen have also been documented. 6,8,10 A recent 2008 study links GM corn with infertility, showing a significant decrease in offspring over time and significantly lower litter weight in mice fed GM corn.8 This study also found that over 400 genes were found to be expressed differently in the mice fed GM corn. These are genes known to control protein synthesis and modification, cell signaling, cholesterol synthesis, and insulin regulation. Studies also show intestinal damage in animals fed GM foods, including proliferative cell growth 9 and disruption of the intestinal immune system. 6

(reference "6" Finamore A, Roselli M, Britti S, et al. Intestinal and peripheral immune response to MON 810 maize ingestion in weaning and old mice. J Agric. Food Chem. 2008; 56(23):11533-11539.

reference "7" Malatesta M, Boraldi F, Annovi G, et al. A long-term study on female mice fed on a genetically modified soybean:effects on liver ageing. Histochem Cell Biol. 2008; 130:967-977.

reference "8" Velimirov A, Binter C, Zentek J. Biological effects of transgenic maize NK603xMON810 fed in long term reproduction studies in mice. Report-Federal Ministry of Health, Family and Youth. 2008.

reference "10" Kilic A, Aday M. A three generational study with genetically modified Bt corn in rats: biochemical and histopathological investigation. Food Chem. Toxicol. 2008; 46(3):1164-1170.

reference "11" Kroghsbo S, Madsen C, Poulsen M, et al. Immunotoxicological studies of genetically modified rice expression PHA-E lectin or Bt toxin in Wistar rats. Toxicology. 2008; 245:24-34. )

infertility and cancer. just like apples and oranges...

here's another general link about animals:
http://www.organicconsumers.org/school/ ... 090304.cfm

what I didn't get was how exactly the golden ratio was employed in the DNA.

well, it isn't employed in dna, that is to say it is not used. the golden ratio is observed to be a pattern present in terms of the height of the peaks of the wavelengths of the electro-magnetic field of a cell during the moment of bliss. (does that make sense?) this man didn't discover that the golden ratio applies to the magnetic field that a cell puts out, he merely observed the phenomenon and is now trying to propose some possible causes for it. it's very openly admitted that he doesn't know, but he is trying.
 
what about instead of promoting a process whose products you yourself wouldn't eat, instead promote traditional breeding with the aid of technology for ease of viewing genes, and use the tried and true traditional breeding which has been proven to increase yield as well as nutrient content, as well as shelf life, without ANY of the risks associated with GMO's? i don't get it...

do you seriously think that by promoting the use of GMO's for medicine, that you won't be promoting the use of GMO's across the board? corporations don't care about an individuals reservations. you said it yourself. their bottom line is profit. they will not abandon one area of this technology, they will spread to as many aspects of life as possible. if every living organism becomes Genetically Modified, then they will have the patent and ownership of every living organism. they would be nothing short of delighted.

Plant makes anti-cancer compound A, but makes about 1/10,000 of the required amount for a treatment. GMO -> plant makes 1/2 treatment. . . We don't eat the plant. We purify the product.
why pursue something so tedious, unnatural, and removed from nature when you have a marijuana plant which is essentially proven to prevent cancer, already being produced to treat it, and produces the anti-cancer compound at about 20-25% it's flowering body mass :?:

c'mon now.
 
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