Geometric Tessellations vs. Dream State Narratives

[psypher]

This is my first post here, so here's the obligatory preface:
An abundance of psychedelic experience in college a decade ago, even then i thought of it as research more than good times... (although, there were the good times) Whether it was research in the drug itself, its place in modern society, my inner-self, reality, or the entire experience on a whole. Recently i found myself missing 'it'... life outside of the inertia of the day-to-day. Taking the time to revel in the inner-workings of it all from an externally placed seat within one's deepest self. I had tried Salvia back then, 10x maybe, with no real luck. Recently I gave her another shot in the form of 30x. This round has worked. Usually a pinch/one hit does the trick.

The majority of the experiences have been somewhat geometric patterns akin to Escher's Tessellations.. viewed from a 45 degree angle, in a 3/4 view, with movement. For instance, take a houndstooth pattern. Look only at the 4 closest shapes, on a skewed plane that continues forever. Position one of the quadrant, at the top, would flip (counter-clockwise) to its left, then down, to its right then back to position one. With each of these flips, a glimpse of a memory would be trying to push its way through the crease of the fold, but the movement wouldn't allow it. It wasn't of a visionary or simply just understood form, it was more like the inability to see something straight on in low-light... you need to use your peripheral vision to see it best. Regardless, with each flip, a new memory would attempt to surface. I began to realize that this was how 'reality' worked. A balance of thoughts, the shapes, and memories, the folds.

This has become the persistent and only theme throughout all of my attempts to "breakthrough" to a loss of ego... Every experience has come down to a series of different forms of shapes or tubes, all with the inner eye's pinks and greens, or reds, yellow and whites, all showing me the "true" fabric of reality. This was actually shown to me as the crossing lattice of tubes making the literal fabric. I existed within each tube and all tubes at the same time... one direction's parallel threads were vessels/composites of memories, the perpendicular threads were 'thoughts' (as in the abstract version of the word, not an actual thought-this is always the interpretation). This was just another display of what consensual reality is composed of.. what it is dependent on. Thoughts, memories, and non-linear time... all existing at once. Past is present, with no sense of future.

I should point out that the majority of my interests comes back to different metaphors adopted from theoretical physics. Time and how we perceive it is another daily topic of thought. The inner dimensions of string theory could be responsible for the 'threads/tubes'.... (when we look at a line far away, it is a line, but up close we could find it to be a tube... now that has an added dimension of movement around it. These new hidden dimensions would exist at every point, at every time. Something rather hard to envision). I almost feel that my own interests in theses ideas are guiding me through Salvia's visions, and despite being elated to see and feel them, they are becoming redundant.

So what i ask from anyone that has had a good amount of Salvia experience: Do you see any familiarities in any of this with your own? Have you had any difficulties breaking through to a higher level? When this higher level is presented, with a loss of ego... does it become an understood narrative like the thoughts one projects when reading a book or is it more like the imagery you would see while watching a movie or within a dream? ...i've read so many detailed and amazing trip reports, just waiting to experience something of their caliber myself.

As a footnote, there are things i only remember when under Salvia. Things from previous Salvia experiences that are 'oh, yeah' moments as soon as i feel the rush and closed eye visuals come on. Only recently had i forced myself to at least remember that these things were being forgotten while coming down, just not the exact memory. Anyone else experience this?

Thanks.

 

[avemaria]

yes i think probably everyone has moreorless the same kind of experiences with salvia, once you read a large number of salvia trip reports, the similarities start to become apparent, like geometric distortion, undulating patterns etc, for me it often feels like ive been flattened out into a 2-dimensional shape

 

[psypher]

Thanks for the reply.

I love reading trip reports, especially well written ones... the similarities are abundant, almost like an inherent thread woven into the make up of the plant. The thing i can't seem to figure out are the reports from people that have well developed narratives... ones that go on about people witnessing events while being an inanimate object, or from the perspective of another person, etc.

I've tried to increase dosage, but it seems to only increase the depth of the geometric patterns, even with eyes open... but now with a lack of any interpretations or understanding of what the imagery represents, there is no real focus on any particular imagery either... just an array of psychedlic undulations. Before i would be 'shown' what makes up the consensual reality we experience; which entertained me for a while, but became redundant. With the increase in the amount i would smoke (30x btw) I tend to fall into being a heavy mesmerized subject of a perpetually folding web of spiraling aztec/mayan designs. During all of this there is an absence of implied meaning, No underwriting of reality, No real mission statement of intent. I know i do have thoughts but bring nothing back with me. I almost feel that the more i do, the further i get from remembering anything to reflect on.... let alone get to a place where i could breakthrough to any state of out of body experience, death of ego, or into an absorbed narrative.

Not sure if i should try a higher extract or a larger amount of a lower extract. Maybe taking it back to a purer form might help...

 

[IJesusChrist]

Hi, you have a very interesting style, writing, and perceiving. You remind me of when I used to dive in alot more.

Alot of what you stated parallels exactly back to my later high-school days, frequent mushroom trips, a very intense salvia experience, and my first trips with DMT. I was convinced I was *finally* seeing the "real" reality.

I am not sure, though, whether you or I can ever see the "real" reality. Much like you said yourself, quantum mechanics does indeed play a roll in our perceptions - but on the most fundamental level: that which is observed is not "real", per se, in the most basic and absolute context.

Observation, on all accounts, is purely based on the observer. All reality is relative.

My first mushroom trip I came face to face with the reality that the I is in fact a manifestation of the self; there is no free will. I don't know about you, but seeing this revelation came from the observation of psychology of the external - that being my friends and family, and then turned inward onto the self. It was, of course, accompanied by strong revelations in geometrical patterns, the fabric of space and time, and visuals in general. I was convinced, almost daily, that I was the only person actually viewing reality from an unbiased and absolute manner - that my vision of reality was in fact, pure reality.

Often I was seeing strings and planes, warping and changing with the ever constant eb and flow of life and the universe. Droplets forming in and from ideas, tangental lines pulling me towards life styles, it all seemed in some way connected.

But lately I have been utterly confused and exhausted from this analysis - I believe this viewing of reality that you are writing about, is simply the only manifestation that a deeper sense of reality can be observed. I think that the idea that one person, a human, a mammal, an animal, a conscious plant, can observe the true, absolute reality is in some manner a false hope. At best it is an entertainment, at worst it is a crippling ideology.

I can't say that you are right or wrong in anything, but I felt strongly enough about the topic to give a good reply. Hope this makes some kind of sense to you... Don't outsmart yourself!

 

[ophiuchus]

ill come back to this, no time to read

 

[ophiuchus]

OP:

"So what i ask from anyone that has had a good amount of Salvia experience: Do you see any familiarities in any of this with your own? Have you had any difficulties breaking through to a higher level? When this higher level is presented, with a loss of ego... does it become an understood narrative like the thoughts one projects when reading a book or is it more like the imagery you would see while watching a movie or within a dream? ...i've read so many detailed and amazing trip reports, just waiting to experience something of their caliber myself."

yes, lots of similarities. i never attempted to "break through" to any level though, because my first attempt was on the highest 'plateau' I'D iver read about... if i had to force it into words, it was as if i was sent (BLASTED) to an alternately perceived reality where synesthesia or perhaps a unified experience of senses was the norm. i felt, heard, saw and experienced all in color and (experienced) differing wavelengths (to grossly oversimplify it). (funny to note that afterwards, i learned that wavelength is the only thing creating difference between colors.) in this state, i was not aware of myself as a human being, nor was i even aware that i was living or experiencing at all. only when the comedown began to set in and my normal perceptions began shining through the salvia perception did i notice myself having ANY thoughts at all. this is when i began to feel uncomfortable, during the transition, that is. it is a strong feeling going from having no concept of control, and then jumping back into a world where "control" is a primary component of our conditioned reality. i literally heated up and began sweating profusely (not as a result, just simultaneously). nothing i did felt comfortable (eating, wearing clothes, blankets, sitting, none of it felt good at all) i was extremely sensitive for about 10 minutes afterwards, but then i was fine.

the moral of the story, i think, is that you should not get caught up in the LITERAL attempts of other people in defining reality, MOREOVER, an alternate reality (salvia experience) that not everyone has experienced mind you, and therefore, cannot accurately come to the same agreed consensus on what EXACTLY is perceived in that state. the best one can do is to approximate it to things that you see in sober reality, but as you can tell, this really does little for the person trying it. it is only AFTERwards that those experiences can make any sense to you.

i think that "geometric patterns that ebb and flow with time" or "synesthesia" or a variation of that is probably the only things that can come close to approximating the experience, because it is so dynamic in nature, that using a fixed object like balls, elves, jewelled basketballs, etc in ones description, is always going to be misleading, in that the "tangible" shapes you see are ever-restructuring and defy direct contact in any perception.

"does it become an understood narrative like the thoughts one projects when reading a book or is it more like the imagery you would see while watching a movie or within a dream?"

in what sense? maybe you can elaborate, im not sure exactly which two modes you are attempting to contrast. is that to say that dreams or movies cannot be understood as a narrative? do you see what im talking about?

 

[psypher]

IJesus Christ,

Completely agree with everything said.
At best it is entertainment, one in which allows undead analysis to run rampant during times in which my mind is overpowered by routine. I'm not searching for answers as much as appreciating fresh insights. As I've gotten older, dreams haven't had the same impact they once had. I used to be enamored with the iconography of the psyche. If the mind of a new-born is regarded as pure id, it seems only fitting as one ages, the super-ego chokes out our instinctual curiosities with the dependence on the 'real', that which grounds us and lubricates our societal strongholds. I love the fleeting moments right after you wake up in the morning, right before the memories of issues that need dealt with slip back in. We exist without worry. We have to remember our immediate past to initiate our immediate future. With that being said, dreams were always a vacation from it all.. and always sharing insight through visual metaphors and themes.

I feel like Salvia holds the same keys, but externally induced. I love the suspension of ego that Salvia offers. Focusing away issues and individuals through a lack of focus. Sure, the rush of the geometric imagery is gratifying at first; but what I seem to want are the reports of out of body experiences. To forget one's self within the belief that the reality under Salvia is another form of consensual reality or even better a reality separate from it is an amazing feeling... to be absorbed into a narrative has to be that much more amazing.

I"m starting to wonder about the idea of expectations... the idea of knowing what other people report and how they describe it creating an underlying expectation taken under with me. My girlfriend has only tried it once. Despite all my explorations, i've managed to keep the majority of my experiences to myself because i like the idea of her having an unadulterated playground to visit. Taking in nothing in with her but the vaguest of expectations. (After her initial impact of it all hitting her, minutes after smoking it, she exhaled "i was not prepared for that". She has no memory of this, but to me, it was perfect. Weeks later, she still isn't sure if the experience was positive or negative but wants to try it again. We just haven't found the time due to her living in another city.)

Regardless, my initial question about 'fractal visions vs narratives' has still been a main curiosity. I know that its hard to find the lexicon to describe the experiences, and i guess that i should contact people with the reports that have spawned this wonderment to help me with my 'research', but i think i might be having a hard time trying to describe the different sides of the Salvia experience-- under and afterwards. As we know that being in it is completely different than talking about it.

So to answer Allusion's question about my posting "does it become an understood narrative like the thoughts one projects when reading a book or is it more like the imagery you would see while watching a movie or within a dream?"
I see how that could be read differently than i intended it to be. Of course dreams and movies are understood as being narratives. By definition thats what they are, linear or not. More so what i was trying to say was the the internal visualization of ideas... when you read a book, the storyline or concepts (if non-fiction) can be created within by the mind's eye. I feel that dreams and movies engage you as the 'subject', with reading you can be seen more as the 'creator' in a sense. So the concept of being within a 'narrative' under salvia has made me wonder about how its perceived by the viewer, from within it or by understanding it. The idea came from the observation of a dichotomy between what i was seeing and what i was thinking. There was also an underlying inherent understanding amidst it all. So i guess what i am trying to ask is.... If the viewer participates as a character from within it orrrr interprets the compilation of thoughts and observations as a specific narrative that can only approximate a storyline due to the inability to find the proper way to describe it all.

I hope any of this helps... i'm not always the best at trying to express my thoughts correctly.
Thanks to both of you for the replies, i really enjoy discussing topics like this.... not to mention its always a nice change to read more of the philosophical ideas that psychedelics can create, as opposed to the plethora of "so i got so fucked up's" that some people post. There were a couple of other things i wanted to expand upon in both of your replies, but have rambled enough for now....

 

[IJesusChrist]

To give a brief un justifiable experience some text;

I smoked some, without knowing exactly what salvia was. I did not know it was going to be more intense, visually and psychologically, than mushrooms, albeit for only 15 minutes. I took in my painful inhale, which was radically larger than I have ever inhaled before, and all I remember is being to weak to hold my head up, and I felt straight backwards - but I never hit.

I was falling through a green fractal kaleidiscope of people. The people were the fractal, and the fractal was people, impossible to give meaning, or even describe fully. As I fell the fractal became less and less of the fractal nature and more of many many humans. They were rampant in everything - all matter was made by these human forms. They were all tucked away creating the rocks, the houses, and at the moment - my childhood enclosure.

I found myself in a 3 feet high by 16 foot long baby's den. The walls and toys and entertainment were all primary colors. The walls and toys and entertainment were also scaffolds of people. As I tried to escape the first room, I found myself in the same room, with half of my body split between one exit and one entrance. I was fully conscious that half of my body was split down the middle, fully aware I was cut in two, but in a salvia state of mind like "Oh shit how do I fix this?". It dawned on me that I will never be able to escape this room, and in fact, my entire life - all of myr eality before this wwas much a play on me by these people built in the wall. I was just too stupid to realize it.

I became paniced and attempted to claw the people from the wall, but they were too strong - immovable. I became distraught at my apparent fate. Stuck in a primary colored babies dream for eternity and the realization that all my friends were actors in a cosmic play and my existance was uncontrolled by me.

As I came out of it I was digging my finger nails into a rock, still slightly able to see the people inside, but aware it was all a dream.

I suppose that is quite different of allusions - I was completely conscious of the self throughout the trip, and it focused on me as being important (but the realization that I wasn't!)

 

[ophiuchus]

your experience ijc is virtually the same as what happened to my mindset on the way out of the trip. i left that out as i didnt want to create an endless post, but i know that feeling, of "Oh shit how do I fix this?". It dawned on me that I will never be able to escape this room, and in fact, my entire life - all of my reality before this was much a play on me"

personally, my approximation of it, was that i was stuck working on a "conveyer belt" (in the conventional sense, yet very much "non-objective" [as in painting terminology, like 'abstract']) this conveyer belt was something that i was attached to, physically, and emotionally as well, as i found out, that attempts to pull away from it, created DEEP sadness inside of me, like the futility of knowing before you even try something that it will be impossible. the more that the seconds passed by, the more "objective"(as painting terminology refers) my reality became again, and the clearer i could see the nature of this "being stuck to" feeling, and as soon as i realized that i was on my friends back porch, i felt like i was stuck to it, literally, as if standing in quicksand, yet a part of the quicksand as well... of course this made me very distraught, and at the time i could not figure out first of all what the hell just happened to me, but secondly, why i felt this sadness in the first place. a few difficult trips later and i now understand what that was all about, but back then the salvia experience was SO fast and so short, that i wasn't able to gain much from it for a long time. i think the feeling was a very obvious one, and it came from gravity. that feeling of defying gravity is a archetypal mindset that manifests itself in many many variations. it's that childish feeling of trying the impossible just for the sake that one "can"... but sooner or later one comes to grips with the nature of it, and it becomes clear that "control" CAN be had, just not in the conventional (physical) sense, but in the "unconventional" modes of the mental abilities.

 

[ophiuchus]

"If the viewer participates as a character from within it orrrr interprets the compilation of thoughts and observations as a specific narrative that can only approximate a storyline due to the inability to find the proper way to describe it all."

to answer that question, i think that BOTH play a paramount role, and that one cannot overlook either of them if they'd like (id assume is the goal) to have the most complete image of things

 

[psypher]

IJC:

seeing this revelation came from the observation of psychology of the external - that being my friends and family, and then turned inward onto the self

.
I like the idea of this influencing a take on reality. I often use different theories in quantum physics as analogies for different views of the constructs of how we live... Your statement reminds me of an adapted view of The Holographic Principle I used as metaphor of art, mainly printmaking. Everyone (for the most part) sees the finished piece with no real concept of the processes... how each layer of color is its own creation. The final image is a sum of all the processes that made it. This became a metaphor for the self we are/have become. That we are a compilation of everyone we've interacted with, learned life lessons from, laughed because of, loved, lost, and were inspired by. These are all the processes that have created the I we know, and that I is the surface that information is inscribed on.

Quantum Theory and Particle Physics can take what Allusion said about his first Salvia experience further as well:

i felt, heard, saw and experienced all in color and (experienced) differing wavelengths (to grossly oversimplify it). (funny to note that afterwards, i learned that wavelength is the only thing creating difference between colors.

Taking the wave/particle duality (we can only look at the location of a particle (i.e. quanta, a photon), sacrificing the ability to measure its momentum (a wavelength)... and vice versa) we can flex the paradox out to a somewhat psuedo-scientific take. A physicist name De-Breglie postulated that all matter was comprised of wave-functions, which to me makes sense. We see light and hear sounds, both of which have been identified as waves... whats to be said about our other senses? Furthermore, using the idea of the wave/particle duality, which most often uses light to be explained, couldn't we see ourselves/reality as being the large scale version of the quanta that's a reciprocal of all wavelengths? I can't help but also bring up the fact that Superstring Theory leads us to believe that all matter is made up of vibrating strings at the smallest sub-atomic level... a unification of harmonized vibrations similar to the strings on a guitar. But whereas the strings are located on the 2-d neck of the guitar, the strings vibrate in at least 3 dimensions. Couldn't these strings be thought as a multi-dimensional wave function? One that culminates in one giant wavelength of life?

As a footnote to this 'physics' metaphor post, thought i'd share a recent Salvia experience: There were visions of shapes akin to wormholes, or older telephones, or the floating Recognizer ships in Tron... at the base of the closest side was a memory, at the other end was a memory from another period of my life. The two were understood to be linked for whatever reason, which wasn't apparent to me. They reminded me of Entangled Particles, where two particles are intrinsically connected with opposing characteristics. When one is altered, the other, even if separated by a sizable difference, will change as a result. I understood that my future self was the 'true' existent self.... and the choices made now are the things that NEED to happen to create the person I already am (in the future). Even the bad decisions are learning experiences (i believe that even the worst points in our lives aren't completely negative, we learn from everything)... and those decisions and events obviously effect who we are.. but the end result is just an entagled/bound consequence of who we already are, just necessary to complete that persons make up. There were also memory/connectors that didn't have the second component... these were reserved for memories from the future. Despite theories on non-linear time, we can't 'remember' the future.. thus the unpaired memories cannot be paired with those linked future memories. They are not viewable. Last night i was shown all of this again, but without analysis.... it was already familiar. I already knew its teachings. So i appreciated what was being shown, while appreciating the morphing my body did with the bed, I became part of it and my hands on my chest were pulled down and became part of my chest. I have one of those alarm clocks that make different sounds to lull you to sleep, i decided to turn on the 'ocean' one very low to see how i might interpret the sounds.... this pretty much just grounded me to the idea of the consensual reality that my mind is anchored to. (Plato's Allegory of the Cave comes to mind, which I think Salvia on whole could be described with). As i came to, i suddenly could lift my thumb, then my fingers one by one. They felt like they were being pulled out of my chest, without pain, just having been a part of it. I breathed. I rolled over, enjoyed some lingering effects and fell asleep.

Till next time....

Oh, btw Allusion.. i like your answer to my question. I guess they are one in the same. I'm pretty much convinced that there cannot be a complete loss of ego. The mind will always be there, even if one is taken to a place where it might be convinced it is an inanimate object or another person in another time. You will always be present asking questions about the 'truthfulness' of what is being experienced.