ever think about it?

[mutant]

i won't bother to go step by step... just a note

your dutch no?

If I remember right, holland has one of the highest level of life standards in EU . So high that dutch people would happily leave EU there was some poll about that, no?]. The same is with some scandinavian countries, norway, finland, sweden -

ok everything is subjective, but I am talking about social wellfare, hospitals, security after retirement - THE BASICS that governments OUGHT to offer to tax paying and hard-working citizens in a capitalist society...

OK everyone is selfish - why the hell would you care what happens to other countries... but saying capitalism is right because it gave us the net is another thing. be sure they would make us pay for it and forbid maaaaaaany pages if they could... thankfully the net is one of the freeest realms in modern society - sadly, it's kind-of virtual....

but I wont take you far...

speak with a greek person about the political system - and note I didn't take you to a 3rd world country [the horrors are indeed beyond the common mind]. we talking about a long list of scandals [where big companies often are involved] and noone ever punished, no government ever falls, they just expell some minor party guys, NEVER a minister or deputy.

come and see our salaries etc. We are almost as expensive as paris or other EU countries [because EU says we should ne like that], but with 1/3 or so of the salaries. great establishment

its horribly wrong to assume that everything is OK on the planet just because you live in a comparatively good model of capitalism

and, oh yeah, no more rapes happen since we have capitalism :P very funny joke

 

[GOD]

"be sure they would make us pay for it and forbid maaaaaaany pages if they could... thankfully the net is one of the freeest realms in modern society"

The internet is a honey pot . Its not free , its full of adverts and propoganda , and its the easyest way to watch the population . Everyone who uses it makes themselves a profile and all European countrys store all the things we do for a long time . Its the same as in the book 1984 where there is a television screne in every room and every thing is recorded . Its an atempt at total control .

" we talking about a long list of scandals [where big companies often are involved] and noone ever punished, no government ever falls, they just expell some minor party guys, NEVER a minister or deputy."

Thats the same in every country . The big people get away with their crimes , the small people get exploited and shit on .

The thing you said about Greek salarys is true , but the same thing is happening in other European countrys , maybe not on the same scale but its happening in east Germany . The prices are the same as in west Germany but the salarys are a lot less .
"its horribly wrong to assume that everything is OK on the planet just because you live in a comparatively good model of capitalism "

I agree with you about the injustice in Europe and the false sense of democracy that most people here have . I think that most people who use this site see that . We have often talked about it . Maybe if you look at a few threads from the last 2 months you will see that .

 

[mutant]

"be sure they would make us pay for it and forbid maaaaaaany pages if they could... thankfully the net is one of the freeest realms in modern society"

The internet is a honey pot . Its not free , its full of adverts and propoganda , and its the easyest way to watch the population . Everyone who uses it makes themselves a profile and all European countrys store all the things we do for a long time . Its the same as in the book 1984 where there is a television screne in every room and every thing is recorded . Its an atempt at total control .

actually by 'free' I meant if you're free you can navigate freely and you can reach free realms, site, forums etc. Of course, if you wanna make a really free site/domain you have to pay for it, usually, but in general, it's comparatively safer to be anti-establishment in the net realm than in real life.

as far as big brother is concerned, heh, yeah maybe you partly right, but still you can't leave this prevent you from going with the flow. the net is valueable and one can indeed find free info/data [both meaning at no cost, and related to liberty]

Thats the same in every country . The big people get away with their crimes , the small people get exploited and shit on .

well of course, they say they have huge corruption f.e in Italy also. But corruption is one thing and being the king in it is another! and to delve in deeper, its not unrelated with greek mentality [mediteraneans have ... somewhat their own way], portugese maybe also... and living in the south of greece I can understand this a bit more. Northern greeks are somewhat different...

The thing you said about Greek salarys is true , but the same thing is happening in other European countrys , maybe not on the same scale but its happening in east Germany . The prices are the same as in west Germany but the salarys are a lot less .

well i lived in berlin for some months in 2002. I found that the basic salaries are 2,5 times higher and the cost of living [excluding vegetables, fruits and taxis] are cheaper! in other countries like france or netherlands, the cost of living is higher, but the salaries are somewhat 4 times the greek ones!

and, heck, salaries and cost of living is only one matter. we are dragged by our politicians and EU demands into the worst possible future scenario and the even worst? the money EU gave us to make our country 'better' have mostly vanished!!!

you know greece is a very special place to be born, like every place for this matter. many greeks go abroad for job or studies and never come back, due to the tempting high salaries... and even if they would prefer to return zum heimat, they don't. in a way, actually in many ways, I don't blame them...

See? i'm not really such a bad guy as you initially thought :)

 

[st.bot.32]

Interesting, I don't know if capitalism even really exists in this part of the world.. I would call it corporate government these days. Any industry-funded lobby group even from across the border with tons of money can try to pass laws that the rest of us have no say over unless we get off our duffs and catch them in the act.

 

[Brugmansia]

its horribly wrong to assume that everything is OK on the planet just because you live in a comparatively good model of capitalism

and, oh yeah, no more rapes happen since we have capitalism :P very funny joke

Of course the appearance itselfs occurs too, but not as sporadic as in primitive cultures. Look in Afrika for instance. And native cultures who are still living in a 'jungle community'.

I didn't wrote that this planet is OK, on the contrary. I wrote that capitlism is a great pleataeu to help others climbing up the stairs as well.

Sadly, our politicans use that plataeu to segregate us and safe our current position and do not invest to let others be part of our model as well. Yes, I feel guilty for this but realise that it's no fun at all for me either to be between these huge ego's.

'Cause this build up model can be used for a world wide investment. It's just that those who have the might are not willing to give privilegdes away for further investment. This is how the majority thinks here in Western/North Europe. There's nothing wrong with healthy capitalism, only with what the governments does with it. Which is based on egoism and not on attempting to extend the collective well-ness.

By the way, I wish I could have exchanged positions with you since birth. I have been on Crete twice and all the Greeks I have meet have a good sense of humor, are relaxed and never in a hurry. Easy going people. Ok, structures and such things as toilets are less developed, but for me it's worth it. I simply can accept a low spending capacity or sallary if I got the climate and wonderful nature from there in return.

I have been to the mountains and it was mystical to see old men sitting in their chair in a totally disconnected environment from the outer world. They were in a circle and within them an ancient tree which had a deep meaning for that village.

I have been 'wraped back' by the use of psychedelics, and have hated for the modern model I live in for 2 years. Got heart problems while I was just 23. I stressed myself out over things and my ambition to join politics. If I had proceed that on that fanatic scale, I would have been a victim.

 

[GOD]

"See? i'm not really such a bad guy as you initially thought"

Please dont try to tell me what i think , if you want to know ask , i dont mean that ofensivly , i said you were projecting things on me before didnt i ? I thought that i dont know you , that we had never exchanged view points and that you came in with guns blazing and took several pot shots at me . I thought that you didnt choose your words very well . My reply seems to have changed something though , since then your posts have become more sensible and not so unnesecerily provocative . Thank you . That doesnt mean that i will not , or can not reply to the two posts where you insulted me . I will , i`ve just got very many things on my mind at the moment .

"Interesting, I don't know if capitalism even really exists in this part of the world.. I would call it corporate government these days. Any industry-funded lobby group even from across the border with tons of money can try to pass laws that the rest of us have no say over unless we get off our duffs and catch them in the act."

Thats a big part of what capitalism is , the people have nothing to say and money buys decissions .


"There's nothing wrong with healthy capitalism, only with what the governments does with it."

I think you are confusing comercialism with capitalism . Comercialism is buying and selling . Free trade . Capitalism is investing capital , with no aliance or alegions or morals , and living from the interest . Capitalism is another word for moneylending , money lending is another word for usury , usury is another word for slavery .

 

[mutant]

Hey come-on, God, I was just being humoristic :)

BTW great comments

I wrote that capitlism is a great pleataeu to help others climbing up the stairs as well.

There's nothing wrong with healthy capitalism

Hmm, the this is , Brugmansia, that even if you were partly right, in theory, I can't really see anything that is so vastly different in theory and in action. Even the demonized communism at least delivered some basic stuffs - food, work etc [along with varius forms of suppression] - don't bother to argue more about it though, I'm not into any ideology, I don't care about politics. People are bad, and myself I am interested a lot in the dark side of the human soul, despite I have an ultimate fondness for the weaker, for the good-hearted...

Unfortunately , the world is not a hollywood film ...


st.bot.32 , here, have this even more interesting:

in greece 'big' people are constantly caught in the act, like these days , where a big scandal is on. Guess what . Only a couple of 'small' people get punished! :(

 

[phalaris]

ripped right out of context and completely off topic but:

fortunately , the world is not a hollywood film ...

:twisted:

 

[mutant]

Hmmmmm , I can associate with that more, Lol, I was just refering to the hollywood filming quality to always have a happy end, the government protecting the people from the bad guys , communists, terrorists etc

but I can undestand it sounded quite silly.... ;)

 

[phalaris]

nah, it's me.. sometimes 'Hollywood' can give me the creeps, and not just because the movie was that exhilarating ;)

..what was the topic again ?.. I forgot :)

 

[tryptonaut]

"There's nothing wrong with healthy capitalism, only with what the governments does with it."

Yeah, and capitalism is on its best way to get rid of governments so it can grow an prosper... it already managed to make most of the world's governments into puppets for capitalism.
Hell I really don't like christianity (or any other totalitarian monotheistic religion) but there's something very true the bible warned us about: not to worship money. However somehow they keep saying they believe in the bible, but they do worship money. It is sad, but I really don't know what to do about it...

 

[random]

Write your thoughts (in short words) in "paper" (money) bills. Each and every one that you possess. And sign it: "Love. Freedom." :wink:

Other than that, spread Love and Information to your brothers.

Love

 

[Brugmansia]

Hell I really don't like christianity (or any other totalitarian monotheistic religion) but there's something very true the bible warned us about: not to worship money. However somehow they keep saying they believe in the bible, but they do worship money. It is sad, but I really don't know what to do about it...

Here in the Netherlands we got the most left government since decades. Two Christians parties form the biggest majority of the formed goverment.

The CDA here (biggest), is definitely a party of the big money. While there are noticeable Christian roots involved, especially by some individuals. But it's about business. I have seen myself that that part of the bible is defintely not adopted by many Christians.

I earn the minimum amount of money, about 1050 EU a month (minus taxes). And if someone askes me why I don't participate on a higher level, I'll just say mental values are worth so much more. I can buy my fruits and wished nutritions, can shower daily with luxury bought products, can have internet etc. But don't have anything left for decent blothes or shoes, a car or expensive clubs whatever. For me, that's healthy capitalism.

With all respect, I wouldn't make a downfall under this line and have no shower, internet, and money to buy quality nutrition and possibility of hygiene.

 

[mutant]

Hey, out of curiosity, what do you do? [I mean how many hours do you work for these 1050 euros] - you also get reliable insurance and health care ??