crystal DMT + MAOI - what dose?

[Bastiaan]

You did not come off anyway like an a-hole, you are telling people to be carefull wich imho is quite the opposite.
MAOI's are/can be serious shit and people should be aware of that
A lot of people here however (including me) have done their homework.
Perhaps you should have opened a new thread instead of posting in mine?
And by that I don't mean that I find this annoying or anything.. thx for your concern!

How long do they need to be avoided?
24 hours before and after drinking Ayahuasca should be sufficient.

I took 12 hours as a rule last time, no problems.
I ate some of the foods that might better be avoided after that time without complications, I am still carefull though and I ate those in small amounts just to be sure.
Next day I don't worry about my diet at all anymore.
It's really nasty imo to not be able to eat all day, so if it's not absolutely nescessary (wich I think is not the case with a 4 grams of PH) I like to have at least one decent meal in the evening

"Just plain cold extractuin and eggwhite ckeaning "

Please give me the exact location of that .

I am interested as well

 

[braha_kahn]

I have often taken 10 - 20 grams with no problems at all . If you google Peganum Harmala you will see that its an every day digestive help in asia , and that its been used from north africa to asia for thousands of years as a medicine . They have no ill effects .

Interesting, perhaps I should repeat the experiment

 

[endlessness]

on a side note about the ´boiling not necessary´

it is a fact that it is not necessary to boil ayahuasca for an active brew

all the alkaloids in ayahuasca are water soluble. B carbolines in caapi are. Also the dmt in the chacruna/chacropanga and also in jurema are all in salt forms and are also water soluble (plus the plants are slightly acidic by themselves, which increases the solubility in water)

there are different tribes that make only cold extraction (like the tukanos and other indians in brazil and bordering colombia, and also the Shuar that live in an area that goes from ecuador to peru). These tribes use mostly pure vines, though, but im trying to research about indigenous cold water chacruna/chacropanga cold water too. If I find out anything I´ll let you know. Mimosa hostilis root bark is for sure used indigenously in cold water extraction, and it is in fact even active by itself in such way without the need of MAOI.


there are a few advantages of boiling ayahuasca, though, for example one can reduce the final quantity to a more manageable amount. Also, boiling water increases the solubility of the alkaloids in the water (though it may also increase the solubility of other non-active substances like tannins and so on). Lastly, some people, traditions and tribes mention about the fire having a special alchemical significance, though for me this strikes too dogmatic many times, like when I tried talking to santo daime people about this and their negative response. IMO, Whatever works, works, all that is necessary is the plants, the technique and good intention

I have made a cold caapi infusion and has worked perfectly already.. normally, though, I preffer making first a cold water infusion, straining the liquid and saiving.. Then making 3x quick boiling (10, 20 mins each), putting all the liquid together and then boiling to a more manageable amount. This way I seem to get basically all the alkaloids (considerably more so than if I only did the 3x boiling, at least I feel so), and I also dont need to prepare for so long. Plus, in our times of global warming and resources finishing up, I think it is not a bad decision to do techniques that are energetically efficient and dont require tons of CO2, burning wood or gas in general being used for a brew

 

[GOD]

"the dmt in the chacruna/chacropanga and also in jurema are all in salt forms"

? And i was always taught that they are in alkaloid forms wich were in chloride or is it chlorate forms wich made them soluble in water .

How can you extract the ingredients for ayahuasca in cold water and keep it down to a drinkable amount without boiling the water down or evaporating it for days = it goes off .


( On another subject . The Beer yeast i take has vitamin B12 in it and its not added . Maybe its the beer yeast that is filtered off after making beer not the yeast used for making beer ) .

Kenzo all youve done since you came here is talk empty crap about things you dont understand , try to spread panik and try to get people to join your favorite web site . You show your ignorance and that you have no experience . Take ayahuasca and not just talk about it .

 

[endlessness]

"the dmt in the chacruna/chacropanga and also in jurema are all in salt forms"

? And i was always taught that they are in alkaloid forms wich were in chloride or is it chlorate forms wich made them soluble in water .

well yeah they are still alkaloids.. in a basic medium it becomes a ´freebase´, in an acidic medium it becomes a salt with the termination related to the acid ( acetate in acetic acid/vinegar, hydrochloride in HCL, etc). In the case of the plants, like in mimosa, it could possibly be DMT tannate, due to the tannins/tannic acid present. By measuring the pH of water with mimosa in it, the pH is found to be acidic. and yeah these salts are water soluble, and they are still ´alkaloids´ but in salt form

How can you extract the ingredients for ayahuasca in cold water and keep it down to a drinkable amount without boiling the water down or evaporating it for days = it goes off .

the natives sometimes leave it soaking for long, and then just drink it unreduced. others beat the fresh caapi in a hollow sort of wood, where the ´juice´ flows through the tilted hollow way and is collected at the end.. I dont know how efficient this is in terms of caapi necessary / doses, though.

personally SWIM usually reduces by boiling, but using larger pots or wide casseroles so that it doesnt take long, so SWIM still saves up on a lot of energy used overall..

SWIM also sometimes makes normal aya by boiling, and is not against it or smt.. just think that boiling for hours and hours is unnecessary

( On another subject . The Beer yeast i take has vitamin B12 in it and its not added . Maybe its the beer yeast that is filtered off after making beer not the yeast used for making beer

nice one! good for you to find a natural non animal source of b12, because it is def not a common thing

 

[GOD]

Then its not an alkaloid its a tannate salt . And you are talking about Mimosa , not the things that are used in ayahuasca .

Caapi doesnt give you a trip . You would have to have chacruna or something else that contains DMT with it . = much more volume . = youd have to drink liters and then wouldnt it be to diluted ???

I`m not diputing cold extracts , i`ve posted one that works here , i`m saying that with the posibilitys the natives had there they would have to have cooked it down .


The beer yeast i take is a certified natural product with no aditives . It contains very small amounts of B12 and i`m not saying it contains anywhere near the amount a person needs for a day . I`m just saying there is B12 in it .

 

[endlessness]

Then its not an alkaloid its a tannate salt

no, then its an alkaloid in it´s tannate salt form. Alkaloids are naturally occuring compounds containing basic nitrogen atoms
It retains the definition of being an alkaloid

And you are talking about Mimosa , not the things that are used in ayahuasca

yes but the fact that the alkaloids are in salt form still remains with basically all the other plants too.

Caapi doesnt give you a trip .

I disagree... Pure caapi can make you trip both in SWIM´s personal experience, and it seems in the indigenous knowledge too. Natives call the caapi as ayahuasca. P Viridis or D Cabrerana are considered secondary admixtures. It is also true that nowadays most people call ayahuasca the whole brew, but the main ingredient has always been considered the caapi.

When asked about the reason for these admixture dmt-containing plants, many indigenous mention its for ´aclarar la vision´, or brightening up the visions. Even though they recognize the effects of the leafs, they still hold the caapi to have visionary powers on its own..

Claudio Naranjo has studied the beta carbolines deeply and has concluded that on their own they are definitely visionary, even more so than mescaline for example (not that I agree with him, I dont like comparing these different substances, but I do think that the harmalas are very active in their own peculiar way)

The experience of pure caapi is different, but it can definitely make you trip and have visions. One can still have characteristic insights and quite a bit of visions, though they are for sure more subtle and not as ´in your face´ as with dmt.

The indigenous people, as I said, make the cold extraction with the caapi.. with the chacrona/chaliponga leaves i am not sure but I am searching about it, if I find out I will tell you about it

SWIM personally never tried making a cold brew with leafs, but might try sometime

Another thing, one must remember that for cooking, natives needed fire-resistant containers. It might well be that the original aya recipe was pure cold bark, and then only later with the discovery of ceramics that they found out about the now common aya admixture.

The beer yeast i take is a certified natural product with no aditives . It contains very small amounts of B12 and i`m not saying it contains anywhere near the amount a person needs for a day . I`m just saying there is B12 in it

im not doubting you, I just noted its not common

 

[GOD]

"The name derives from the word alkaline and was used to describe any nitrogen-containing base."

Salts are salts and bases are bases . So they are salts of alkaloids ? Doesnt that mean by definition that if something is a salt in its natural form its not an alkaloid ? And doesnt the alkaloid become a tanate when it comes in direct contact with the tanic acid .

Harmala and harmalin do not give you a trip . Naranjo was wrong . If i remember rrightly he was mistaken about the drug he was testing and he was realy testing DMT . I`m not saying caapi doesnt give you a trip . I`m just saying if it does its not the harmala / harmine on its own .

The fact about the recepticles used to make ayahuasca is obvious . I have pointed that out here before . It just means that the storys of the length of use / the discovery of ayahuasca must be put at the date that those recepticles were introduced and not before . The peoples that use / used ayahuasca in south america didnt have any reliable dateing system or written history . So anyone who wants to date it before the posibility to boil water is speculating .

 

[endlessness]

Salts are salts and bases are bases . So they are salts of alkaloids ? Doesnt that mean by definition that if something is a salt in its natural form its not an alkaloid ? And doesnt the alkaloid become a tanate when it comes in direct contact with the tanic acid .

Yes they are salts of alkaloids, or alkaloids in salt form. and no it does not mean that if its salt then its not alkaloid, because an alkaloid definition is not whether its found as freebase or not in nature. as said before, the word alkaloid is related to the nitrogen compound present in them (which gives them slight basic qualities and therefore react readily with acids in the environment to form a salt).

And yes the alkaloid becomes a tannate when in direct contact with tannic acid (and still retains its nitrogen, therefore its still an alkaloid). In fact, I cant think of alkaloids that are free-base in nature. Most are in salt forms I would guess (or the zwitterions like psilocybin, which have both negative and positive charges in different atoms )

ahhh, chemistry.. crazy stuff

Harmala and harmalin do not give you a trip . Naranjo was wrong . If i remember rrightly he was mistaken about the drug he was testing and he was realy testing DMT . I`m not saying caapi doesnt give you a trip . I`m just saying if it does its not the harmala / harmine on its own .

Well.. I would love to see a source to back up this information that he was testing dmt and not harmaline..

naranjo or not, though, its a fact that SWIM tripped from straight caapi brew, but as said before, the visions are more subtle, not as ´in your face´ (but very definitely noticeable and far away from any possibility of placebo).

Indigenous knowledge seems to pretty much agree with this too..

but then again, if you dont want to believe, and dont think it would work for you, thats perfectly fine... Maybe try someday making a strong caapi brew and check for yourself.. In any case, just know that there are people that this does work for, and that indigenous people do make straight caapi brew and ascribe visionary powers to it.. maybe it doesnt for you (but you cant know till you really tested it), but still it works for others, so gotta be open to that.. you know, each one has his way.. "as many paths to god as there are created souls"

The fact about the recepticles used to make ayahuasca is obvious . I have pointed that out here before . It just means that the storys of the length of use / the discovery of ayahuasca must be put at the date that those recepticles were introduced and not before . The peoples that use / used ayahuasca in south america didnt have any reliable dateing system or written history . So anyone who wants to date it before the posibility to boil water is speculating

well yeah sure, its basically very hard to date anything in the amazon, all material decompose fast, no written history, scarce archeological evidence due to lack of rock-based construction and them always having used mainly very degradable material..

All my point was only to express that ayahuasca´s main (considered) ingredient is the vine.

 

[GOD]

OK we agree on most of it . I will think about the Naranjo thing and let you know if i remember . How much caapi do you recomend for one of your caapi trips ?

 

[endlessness]

OK we agree on most of it . I will think about the Naranjo thing and let you know if i remember . How much caapi do you recomend for one of your caapi trips ?

maybe 2 or 3 times the usual dose for admixture

 

[GOD]

Ok thanks , but about how many grams was that ? My mate AJ says he will try it and see what happens .

 

[endlessness]

depends a bit on the caapi strenght and the way its prepared..

for me its maybe around 100.. maybe 100 to 150..

purging is very possible with such an amount of caapi.. but I guess your mate is experienced with these things anyways...

and btw, the visions are not as ´in your face´ as when dmt is included.. so its good to stay without much stimulus around.. but for me they were definitely noticeable and powerful in a different way, sometimes dream-like visions where you enter into a story, if you know what I mean

and please let us know how it went for him if he does.. im always curious for other ppl´s reports on pure caapi

 

[GOD]

Thanks for the quick reply . Were you hovering in the background ? He has 100 grams of powder ( = about the size of sugar crystals ) and will try it . How do you recomend him prepairing it ?

 

[endlessness]

(no prob.. yeah im translating some work for uni here and have a bad habit of checking forums every few minutes, which obviously diminishes my rate of studying haha)

well, as a sum up, I think the most effective way is a mixture of a cold soak and then a few boils the normal way..

just basically leave it soaking in water for some hours, maybe a day, and then filter the water, and put it in the pot and boil and separate another 3x.. each boil at least some 20 minutes, but I personally think many hours for each boiling is a waste.. maybe an hour each boil, then put all of the 3 boils together + the cold soak, reduce and drink

 

[GOD]

What i said about Naranjo mistaking the hallucinogenic brew Ayahuasca ( Chacruna and Ayahuasca ) for the plant Ayahuasca , and the plant Ayahuasca not being hallucinogenic is in "The encyclopaedea of psychoactive plants" by Christian Raetsch in the section about Banisteriopsis Caapi and in the section about Harmala alkaloids .

Its not the only place that i`ve read it .

 

[Bastiaan]

I'll report back in this thread when I plan on doing it

Probably tonight

 

[Goran.Hrsak]

Hello, welcome to our humble but the best psychonaut forum on the World.
I think and imagine how your fingers fall off in time when U are writing so long posting.
Don't complicate obviously familiar stuff.
But in couple of things U are wrong or story teller by your Net provider.
Caapi and Peganum are almost same things when U look them in natural chemical alkaloid manufacturing way!
Little difference between them is higher percentage(5%) of MAOi (harmine and harmaline) in Peganum and d-tetrahidroharmine (reduction analog from harmine) and telepatine or banisterine in Caapi which Peganum doesn't contain. Many will say that telepatine is exactly same as harmaline but this isn't true! There are almost 95%(my speculation) of similarity between those two alkaloids but they doesn't act the same on human and animal brain.
Biggest example is when U inject telepatine into dog bloodstream dog will start carving on nonexisting projections (hell knows on what) but harmine injection doesn't have such result! So somekind of difference must be between those two chems.

Next, MAOi like harmine doesn't count like real MAOi. Yes, they are strong MAOi but they leave system in the same "strong" speed just as they act.
There is big difference between harmine or fast-strong acting MAOi (also reversible) and medicine like Isocarboxazid, Phenelzine or Iproniazid which are irreversible. With those MAOi U will get high pressure, slightly confusion and temperature or in the worst case Serotonine syndrome with possible death outcome.
I have mixed SSRI with some MAOi, just like opiates, amphetamines, E, psilocybin and rest "dangerous mixes with MAOi". But what I have done? I have used moclobemide, selegilinum and Peganum alkaloids. And know what? Nothing happens! No temperature, no confusion, S.syndrome or rest of shits. Maybe I am different from rest of people but also I think that this counts on everyone. Low, long lasting and irreversible MAOi like 3 meds above can fuck U up like U describe in your post.
And every other combo between MAOI and meds in your posts are probably extreme and very rarely cases which are every time connected with mentioned "bad" MAOi.

Hope that U have received some subjective look on MAOi with objective compounds. U will learn and see unseenable! 8)

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