Ayahuasca alone or under guidens

[scamie]

I really like to do ayahuasca and i am not sure what to do. Do it alone at home. Or go to something like S. Daime? Are there people who have experience with S. Daime? Are there other places/ peolple shaman guidens, to go to in holland to experience ayahuasca?

rgrds s

 

[HeartCore]

After giving it thought for six months (I had the aya already in my house), I decided to go ahead and do it by myself. It worked great for me so in my experience its safe.

There's no danger as with Salvia, as far as I know, that you start to walk about without knowing what you are doing.

I would say, if you are comfortable tripping alone on mushrooms, you will be ok with doing aya alone.

 

[scamie]

Was thinking about S. Daime, but i really prever to be alone when i am communicating. But there's a nother thought that came into my mind and it had to do with the rituals to take aya. But i do not know if they are like shamanic based or are a more modern intrepertation..
But oke... i think i will not be dis respectfull to use all the knowledge I know and take de aya.
Your first time, you took like10gr mhrb and 3-5 rue?

 

[HeartCore]

That sounds like about it (dosage).

As for rituals, I really dont know about S.Daime. Its just that it doesnt appeal to me personally but it could be great as well. I really love to be alone, somehow that gives me more freedom to let go while tripping, for other people it may be different.

A lot is depending on your mind set I guess but then again, I dont think many people with the 'wrong' mindset pursue ayahuasca anyway.

Some other personal observation, for what its worth, ritual seems to be very important in non-psychedelic shamanism whereas with the latter, it often comes down to being able to brew a potent brew. Something else to keep in mind, but I dont know how this is with S.Daime, is that shamanic doses seem to be on the conservative side usually. This may be good or bad, depending on what you seek. If you lke to really go deep and have a certainty within yourself about these things (in that you always have confidence that the trip is temporarily and no matter how crazy it becomes, you just trust it will be ok), then the solutary method is the way to go imo.

 

[WaseFraKa]

I'll never repeat enough but rue isn't ayahuasca....ayahuasca is banesteriopsis caapi. So take the caapi if you want the real madre to teach you. I'm not saying rue cannot be a good experience, it's just not the same (from the people that have tried both...).

i also wouldn't know if I wanted to go to the Santo Daime. if there are a lot of people i don't know if I'd like it. Though now i really would like to have an experience with a shaman. They know the way of the plants and can make it work better for you. Icaros have very strong powers. I remember in my second experience, at the end of it when the effects were almost worn off, started the first song of Bodh Gaya - Ayahuasca, with a shaman singing an icaros (I beleive, from the ones I also heard in documentaries) and I had one of the clearest visions of the trip.
And i have a lot of respect for the brew after my strong experience (I had another experience that was less strong afterwards), and I just couldn't get myself to try it again since then. But I plan to...when the time is right.

And yes the preparation is one of the steps that has to be well thought as it is allready preparing the experience. I'd advise you really not to eat much the same day, weaken your body a little, so the plants will work better. I tend to really like this part of the process, now I'm doing the same for other teachers. I hope you'll have a good experience.

 

[scamie]

The experiences under guidens of a shaman would be the best. But for there aren't any living in my neighbourhood....... I wil have to do it alone!!!!
thxs for tour replies

 

[HeartCore]

I'll never repeat enough but rue isn't ayahuasca....ayahuasca is banesteriopsis caapi. So take the caapi if you want the real madre to teach you. I'm not saying rue cannot be a good experience, it's just not the same (from the people that have tried both...).

Yes indeed, caapi brew was a dud three times when we brew it, mimosa/rue worked both times and delivered the effects we expected from Ayahuasca.

In my opinion, expectations plays a big role. When I took rue/mimosa, I didnt know some people claimed it wasnt ayahuasca, hence, due to my ignorance, it presented itself as the real thing, no doubt, the goddess of the rainforest was with me. Maybe it was the profoundest experience of my life. People try take that away from me since years, trying to tell me that what I experienced, was not the real thing..

Its a myth really, there is no right way to brew ayahuasca, even in the Amazone, you wiil find many different recipes.

There is so much myth making going on. Even the so called purge, a supposed nessessity in the experience, is now being showed for what it is: 'incompetence of the shaman brewing the brew.'.

There are brews with nnDMT, 5meoDMT, bufotenine and what not. Recipes differ from village to village.

I suspect rue does not grow as abundant as caapi, if at all in those regions.

In any case, wouldnt it be nice to ditch this myth and start developing our own ayahuasca brews based on plants that grow in our countries instead of keeping plundering the rainforests of the amazon? Because this myth keeps this going, we keep ordering these plants out of the Amazon, we hope its all in good trust and all but we just dont know. We have many DMT containing plants in the old and the new world but to my mind, they are being ignored because, they arent real.

Not so, not so at all (in my opinion )

 

[Kwarkfanaat]

The experiences under guidens of a shaman would be the best. But for there aren't any living in my neighbourhood....... I wil have to do it alone!!!!
thxs for tour replies

Good luck scamie, I hope it will be an unforgettable, good, experience!

 

[scamie]

amen

 

[HeartCore]

Good luck scamie, I know it will be an unforgettable, good, experience!

 

[WaseFraKa]

Ok so let's make a small recapitulations of a few of the differences between caapi and rue:

1. the way they call the caapi wine in south america is ayahuasca. So don't call something that it is not.

The widely used Quechua name ayahuasca (pronounced [a.ja.?wa.ska]) has two highly interrelated yet distinct meanings and referents: 1) an Amazonian giant vine native to the rainforest containing various harmala alkaloids, generally Banisteriopsis caapi, and, by extension, 2) pharmacologically complex psychoactive infusions prepared from it for shamanic, folk-medicinal, and religious purposes. Sections of vine are macerated and boiled alone or with leaves from any of a large number of other plants, including Psychotria viridis (chakruna in Quechua) or Diplopterys cabrerana (also known as chacropanga). The resulting brew contains MAO inhibiting harmala alkaloids and the powerful hallucinogenic alkaloid N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT), a psychedelic which is active orally only when combined with an MAOI. Harmala alkaloids in Banisteriopsis caapi serve as MAOIs in Ayahuasca. Western brews sometimes substitute plant sources such as Syrian Rue or other harmala containing plants in lieu of the Banisteriopsis caapi vine, but the vine itself is always central to traditional usage.
Brews are also made with no DMT-containing plants; sometimes they are made with plants such as Justicia pectoralis, Brugmansia and sometimes made with no plants other than the ayahuasca vine itself. Tobacco is a common additive in traditional brews. The potency of this brew varies radically from one batch to the next, both in strength and psychoactive effect, based mainly on the skill of the shaman or brewer, as well as other admixtures sometimes added. Natural variations in plant alkaloid content and profiles also affect the final concentration of alkaloids in the brew, and the physical act of cooking may also serve to modify the alkaloid profile of harmala alkaloids.[1][2]
Names
"ayahuasca" or "daime" in Brazil
"yagé" or "yajé" (both pronounced [ja.'he]) in Colombia; popularized in English by the beat generation writers William S. Burroughs and Allen Ginsberg in The Yage Letters.
"ayahuasca" or "ayawaska" in Ecuador, Bolivia and Peru, also to a lesser extent in Brazil ("vine of the dead" or "vine of souls": in Quechua, aya means "spirit," "ancestor," or "dead person," while waska means "vine" or "rope"). The name is properly that of the plant B. caapi, one of the primary sources of beta-carbolines for the brew.
"natem" amongst the indigenous Shuar people of Peru.
http://www.answers.com/topic/ayahuasca

this could lead to thinking using rue can also be called ayahuasca, but usage, traditions and points coming show that it can't be


2. Syrian rue is toxic, take too much and you could have health problems. With the wine you can up the dose a lot and there is no reported toxicity.

Peganum harmala L. is a plant, which grows in semi-arid rangeland. The plant is used traditionally as an emmenagogue and an abortifacient agent in the Middle East and North Africa. All parts of plant are thought to be toxic and sever intoxication occurs in domestic animals. Digestive and nervous syndromes have been observed in animals that consume sub-lethal amount of the plant. The toxicated animal ap-pears in a narcotic state interrupted by occasional short period of excitement. Abortion is frequent in ani-mals that digest this plant in a dry year. While this plant has traditionally been used in Middle East, it shows toxic effects in human. A case of human overdose with P. harmala seeds is reported in this paper. Symptoms experienced by our patient found to be similar to what has been reported for domestic ani-mals.
http://ijpt.iums.ac.ir/v1n1/Mahmoudian.pdf

ok just saw another topic on the subject a the forums.ayahuasca.com, where actually the wine can also get dangerous in very very high doses. But as it is less concentrated than rue, you have less chance to pass the point. Though still no real reports of toxicity..though we all know that everything becomes toxic at a certain dose (did I say water?), it is less likely with the wine than with rue


3. rue lasts longer than the wine (though I've not found an article that says how long both of them act...)

4. caapi is a beautiful liana and smells wonderful. The taste is bearable. Rue are small seeds that smell not too bad, but are disgusting to eat and the preparation in water even moreso.

5. preparation is of course not the same. Preparing the wine requires much more involment and time in the task. You can and should use this time to focus on your objectives.

6. reports of users having tried both say it is not the same...

 

[Brewmaster]

Well I don't agreee that rue tastes bad, I liken it to very dark chocolate or bitter coffee, but I certainly don't endorse its usage in an ayahuasca analogue. Unless that's all you can afford, I would highly recommend using the actual vine of the souls in combination w/ viridis or cabrerana; with mimosa it's pretty easy to take too much and get in way over your head.

My biggest beef with syrian rue are the immediate side effects like nausea and dizziness. Caapi has never made me feel sick any longer than I needed to, rue on the other hand can cause an upset stomach that lingers for hours; not always, but it can. I prefer to puke and be done with it, not puke and feel like I need to every 10 minutes thereafter. Also, rue just doesn't feel the same, there's something very wise and powerful within the caapi vine, not just maoi's.

 

[HeartCore]

Unless that's all you can afford, I would highly recommend using the actual vine of the souls in combination w/ viridis or cabrerana; with mimosa it's pretty easy to take too much and get in way over your head.

Ok I get the point, this is actually no prob for me and I do like to get in way over my head

My biggest beef with syrian rue are the immediate side effects like nausea and dizziness. Caapi has never made me feel sick any longer than I needed to, rue on the other hand can cause an upset stomach that lingers for hours; not always, but it can.

Ok I dont know about that since I've only done it once. For me the nausea was intense, very short. After vomiting, the nausea was complelely gone. Only side effect I experienced was, that whenever I tried to eat/drink anything, the nausea came back. what I understand from Caapi, you can drink a second dose halfway in the trip without having to vomit 2 seconds after that attempt.

Also, rue just doesn't feel the same, there's something very wise and powerful within the caapi vine, not just maoi's.

Possible but in my opinion thats a personal thing and has more to do with expectations than with the actual plant. As said, my aya experience with rue/mimosa was very profound. It was the real thing, thats what became clear to me very soon when it began to work.

Also I've done rue a number of times with mushrooms and experienced an extra quality in the trip, very wise, old, speaking to me in some ancient (I guess) language that I could speak myself as well. It was a language specifically to put emotions into language. My point is, I'm getting tired of posts claiming this is the real thing, and the other thing is fake because obviously, its not the case for everybody and its a subjective idea.

Another thing that puzzled me about caapi is that there seems to be a lot of bad caapi around. I bought three times, two different vendors. We cooked for hours, followed the recipe. First time, my good friend entheobakta and me, both drank half of the mix. We lay down and waited, waited, waited, then we woke up at 9am the next moring. I repeated this once, different batch, same result. Entheobakta tried again, different batch, same result.

Just to clarify my own personal point

 

[amoak]

I agree , Rue isn't Ayahuasca and only Caapi contain telepathine , Rue only contains beta-carbolines , without caapi you don't get the telepathic effects.
Ayahuasca is = caapi

ayahuasca is not a combination of beta-carbolines with DMT but is the combination of Caapi with ANY other plant , even if the other plant don't contain DMT as many other ayahuasca brews like the Sanango vs Caapi and still ayahuasca and don't have dmt
I've tried both and i found rue to be a shit , for me rue with DMt is just a DMT trip not a Ayahuasca trip, caapi have the power to guide you or to kick you out .

 

[Brewmaster]

"I've tried both and i found rue to be a shit , for me rue with DMt is just a DMT trip not a Ayahuasca trip, caapi have the power to guide you or to kick you out ."

Holy crap! amoak actually agrees with me. Although I wouldn't call it shit, it still knocks your socks off.

Heart: I'm not saying it's fake or wrong; just that it could be better. It is an incredibly efficient way to get oral dmt in your system, but like homeboy said, it's not an ayahuasca trip. And believe me, I know you how you like those deep waters. Nobody knows what works for you, better than you. Do what floats your boat.

As far as bad caapi; ever since you introduced me to maya, I haven't bought anywhere else.

 

[HeartCore]

Holy crap! amoak actually agrees with me. Although I wouldn't call it shit, it still knocks your socks off.

Yea but only because he's talking nonsense, there is no such thing as telepathine

Rue contains harmala and harmine. Harmine was sometime ago called telepathine but that was dropped becasue the name Harmine was already set.

So see what I mean Brew, people havent got a clue. thanks a lot I rather trust my own experience in the matter

I am going to give caapi from Maya a shot though.

 

[amoak]

Yea but only because he's talking nonsense, there is no such thing as telepathine

Rue contains harmala and harmine. Harmine was sometime ago called telepathine but that was dropped becasue the name Harmine was already set.

So see what I mean Brew, people havent got a clue. thanks a lot I rather trust my own experience in the matter

I am going to give caapi from Maya a shot though.

Yes , your right telepathine is harmine , but peganum contains others alkaloids as Harmane , isoharmine ,harmalol , norharmine , tetrahydroharmol , dihydroharmaline , etc , they are all very toxic
Any way peganum is not ayahuasca.

 

[WaseFraKa]

Another thing that puzzled me about caapi is that there seems to be a lot of bad caapi around. I bought three times, two different vendors. We cooked for hours, followed the recipe. First time, my good friend entheobakta and me, both drank half of the mix. We lay down and waited, waited, waited, then we woke up at 9am the next moring. I repeated this once, different batch, same result. Entheobakta tried again, different batch, same result.

Well to respond to that I'm gonna say that with one single batch I've had very varying results. The two first brews did nothing. And then the third was quite strong. So maybe it's a acclimatation thing only. Getting to know a good way to brew and become a master aha

 

[HeartCore]

Yes , your right telepathine is harmine , but peganum contains others alkaloids as Harmane , isoharmine ,harmalol , norharmine , tetrahydroharmol , dihydroharmaline , etc , they are all very toxic
Any way peganum is not ayahuasca.

Ok I agree that caapi is probably a much cleaner source for a maoi than rue is. and I will also agree to call it jurema.

Still, I dont expect any surprises taking aya after having tried jurema

 

[amoak]

Hey HeartCore , i found a new info , telepathine is Harmine not harmaline the main alkaloid of peganum and harmine is main alkaloid of caapi so they still very diffrent and the rue contains a lot of others .

I can not say that rue is not a strong experience and it is , I know rue work's well but is unpleasant and i know you know it, the nausea huhhhhh , i really advise you to try and i really hope you can enjoy it better than ever , and maybe you will not have a surprise with caapi but is diffrent manly the visions caracter that comes from caapi is very diffrenbt from a DMT trip and in my opinion with rue is like DMT , because caapi alone give you the same vision as it have whem mixed with dmt plants but the visions come without color , theoretically DMT and triptamines just give color to the visions of caapi .