Are we mirrors?

[robhR]

If there wasn’t something wrong with this world, would there be chronic depression? Chronic anxiety? You can make an individual case for every patient, but it’s oversimplifying. It’s several hard line left brained people running the show, failing to recognize the bigger picture. It’s a shame humanistic and transpersonal psychology doesn’t play a bigger role in the entire school of psychology. It’s a shame we simply file everybody away and feel like we’ve helped an individual or two but ignore the possibility that we can stop this thing at the source. The potential for insanity may be the first sign that we are truly intelligent beings, but it’s also the first sign that we have a lot to learn. As our society moves more toward approval of right brained activity now that we need not be focused only on survival, and as diving within the self through study and through drug movements flowers out, we will find some of the answers to our troubles. Troubles we weren't even aware we had. There is a reason most instabilities reside in the right brain. We are the ones who don’t get caught up in the details and see the world for what it is, we are the ones who know enough to go mad. How can most people not see that society as a whole is going mad? How our own creation is bringing itself down? Us nut jobs are merely a reflection of the whole, the ones who take the world personally.

Is this not all that depression really is? I've been doing a lot of soul searching lately, having just recently caught on to this whole psychonaut thing, and it seems to me that the source of everything that's been bothering me is not actually me, but rather my environment. Things that I thought were my problems were really only developed in response to all of our problems. The more I talk with other people who suffer from depression the more I feel my opinions validated, the more I feel like this is just some sort of underlying knowledge on the tip of everybody's tounge. It seems like the only thing stopping this from being realized is our own collective ego, society's defense mechanisms. All of us saying "No, no, this is just something that happens when we get smart. Our brains start to malfunction from overload." It just... It seems to me like there's an underlying message to that. Or am I just delusional? Trying to find some grand, all encompasing answer to something that is, in fact, already answered.

I just can't get over the idea that the answers do not all reside in our logic, that we are emotional beings for a reason. That art, theology... angst, everything abstract, is merely a response to, well, reality. This sense that something isn't right here. That if an ideal mind is merely a perception machine, something that isn't caught up in any delusion, then it has two hemispheres for a reason and we need to aknowledge everything that comes with it, and the bulk of society is still really struggling with the idea that everything might just not be very logical. They don't want to aknowledge that logic is our own invention and that there's something much bigger outside of it, some sort of logic that we can't comprehend so it comes out as emotional and abstract, and it seems to be in direct opposition with the logic we think we've discovered.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but I really just want to get this thought a little more focused. Sorry if I seemed to bounce all over the place... Stoned and sleep deprived.

 

[Psyolopher]

That was an really interesting read, thank you!
Well depression can greatly be caused by this, but as in my case its really my brain that is the cause!
BUT, however my problems boost up when i am not satisfied with my surroundings and environments!
That goes without saying, I wonder where i could pick up my life and continue with what ever i want to!
But i dont feel like i can with my surroundings!

I can throw in alot of problems to this case, but im to tired right now!
So, yet again! I agree to a degree, and this was a good reading. Thank you!

 

[BrainEater]

the underlying message of the "starting of the brain to malfunction because of overload" is that for many people too much has to be thought by the brain... that leads to the quite common "burnout-syndrome" or to different types of insanity... what we can be sure of is that both conditions are not very comfortable.... but then ... people are sometimes driven into doing what they are doing and therefore the analogy of slaves of the system fits quite well, as they work their asses off, because they want the things the system offers them like things they think they need and want to achieve it simply by accumulating the money for it .... yes it's easy these days ... however you got to be aware that the real worth isn't reflected in the money, so there is quite a big illusion about the whole money thing going on, with which many people seem to have problems....


peace.

 

[IJesusChrist]

"We are the ones who don’t get caught up in the details and see the world for what it is, we are the ones who know enough to go mad. How can most people not see that society as a whole is going mad? How our own creation is bringing itself down? Us nut jobs are merely a reflection of the whole, the ones who take the world personally. "

Thank you.

There is a fine line between depression of intelligence, and insanity, I seem to have crossed the line many times, but luckily my last crossing was back to depression, and then back to contentedness.

It is extremely hard to cope with the world today, as it isn't natural, in any way any more. There is an underlying part of our brains which I despise, that seems to love manipulation, and usary. It stirs hate, depression, and insanity when it is finally viewed, and more and more people, given the relaxtion on the mind can now see, the world, and reality for how it really is, at an omnipotent view.

It seems the more intelligent you become, the bigger the problem, and struggles follow. Earlier people who had seen this indeed went mad, as they thought they were alone, thought they weren't really seeing reality, but in fact they were.

Reality isn't always a pretty sight, that omnipotent view packs a punch, especially through the eyes of an insignificant human. But it is using the left side of the brain that lets us cope, that lets us relate, and understand on our level. To mix and mingle within the grand view. The right side is there to poke you, tell you hey... look, this is it.

Thanks for writing what I never could. I really appreciated this.

 

[Forkbender]

Interesting post, I've found both points of agreement and disagreement. I tend to agree with most statements, although I think I arrive at them through a different path. I'll try to clarify:

If there wasn’t something wrong with this world, would there be chronic depression? Chronic anxiety?

I think so, yes, because in fact there is nothing wrong with this world. It is a matter of interpretation/perception. You perceive what you want to perceive, either if you think the world is a mad place where only the insane are sane or if you think that all that exist is an expression of joy.

You can make an individual case for every patient, but it’s oversimplifying. It’s several hard line left brained people running the show, failing to recognize the bigger picture. It’s a shame humanistic and transpersonal psychology doesn’t play a bigger role in the entire school of psychology. It’s a shame we simply file everybody away and feel like we’ve helped an individual or two but ignore the possibility that we can stop this thing at the source.

Psychology is built on humanism. But it is the kind of humanism that centers the human individuality. I think that saying that several hard line left brained people run the show is an oversimplification. I do agree, however, that psychological treatment should be more contextualized, i.e. look at the environment of the client. But the fact is that clients seek treatment, environments don't, so they are helping those that want to be helped.

We are the ones who don’t get caught up in the details and see the world for what it is, we are the ones who know enough to go mad. How can most people not see that society as a whole is going mad? How our own creation is bringing itself down? Us nut jobs are merely a reflection of the whole, the ones who take the world personally.

Yes, but in the end everybody's a nut job.

Is this not all that depression really is? I've been doing a lot of soul searching lately, having just recently caught on to this whole psychonaut thing, and it seems to me that the source of everything that's been bothering me is not actually me, but rather my environment. Things that I thought were my problems were really only developed in response to all of our problems. The more I talk with other people who suffer from depression the more I feel my opinions validated, the more I feel like this is just some sort of underlying knowledge on the tip of everybody's tounge.

It is always hard to recognize your own mistakes, prejudices or misinterpretations. You can blame the environment (or the government, or 'them') for your depression, but that's just prolonging it because you are no longer in control. That doesn't mean that the environment hasn't got anything to do with it, but it does mean that it is your personal reaction to this environment that got you in the shits. And that is a good thing, because now you can take responsibility for your own problems and heal yourself, thereby healing the environment little by little.

...logic...

Logic is a tool. If you forget that, you are a tool yourself. I agree that we have collectively lost sight of truth, but throwing away logic isn't the solution, because logic is something that connects us.

Sorry if I seemed to bounce all over the place... Stoned and sleep deprived.

Sleep tight!

 

[Forkbender]

It seems the more intelligent you become, the bigger the problem, and struggles follow.

That's because intelligence does not equal wisdom. Intelligence without wisdom becomes self-destructive in the end, because there is ultimately no need for intelligence.

 

[druglessdouglas]

a good book: the glass bead game, Herman Hess

 

[restin]

Everything of Herman Hesse is genious :wink: Read Siddharrtha and Demian, too.

 

[GOD]

I read all of Hesse and thought it was boring , irelevant crap . For me Castaneda was better . But hes not the only one . I always thought read everything and find and use the truthes in them all .

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

If there wasn’t something wrong with this world, would there be chronic depression? Chronic anxiety?

Well, "this world" is a very big and complex thing, so to label it as either wrong or right is rather meaningless. What do you mean with "this world", and what do "wrong" and "right" mean to you?

If you take certain aspects of this world, say "ideas about parenting and education", and then define right as "encouraging self-esteem and independent thought" and wrong as "stiffling emotional and intellectual development", then I would agree that "this world" is causing a lot of chronic depression and anxiety. But in general, this world doesn't cause anything. Seeing the stupidity, the deceit and the lies around me doesn't make me depressed. And I'm quite aware of the "wrongs" going on all over the world.

it seems to me that the source of everything that's been bothering me is not actually me, but rather my environment.

It's neither you nor the environment, but the way the two interact. And the nature of that interaction may change (through studying psychology, attending workshops, reading books, learning the hard way, moving to another country etc.). You can't change what happens to you, but you can change the way you respond to it, the way you perceive and deal with it. And doesn't the notion that there's a lot to be improved inspire you? The war on drugs doesn't depress me, it inspires me (to write, to blog, etc.). Same for the big religions: we've got work to do!

The more I talk with other people who suffer from depression the more I feel my opinions validated, the more I feel like this is just some sort of underlying knowledge on the tip of everybody's tounge.

Don't let your opinions be validated by people who suffer from depression, but challenged by those who are basically happy and enthusiastic. It's alright to be depressed, but there's no need to remain depressed just because of the environment or the outside world. There are so many good books to read and so much ignorance to be dispersed, the world has never been a better place!!

 

[IJesusChrist]

It seems that wisdom is the way we cope with intelligence. Intelligence comes in blasts, and wisdom takes a bit longer to reduce it, and use it. I'd like to say we sort of break free from our "I'm invincible" stages of life, and sometimes psychadelics speed up that process, they did for me, that is for sure. It almost accelerated my mind to that of 10 years into the future, and I was looking back at myself.

Ahhh, I don't think many people seem to read my posts on this website, it's ok though, I'll keep coming back and reading.

I really loved this thread.

 

[BrainEater]

i read your posts jesus

how was it in 10 years in the future? how did you look back at yourself, your mind being 10 years in the future???



i don't know about the tools thing... i don't like "downgrading" people to tools, but sometimes that's what they are ??? like slaves ... = tools for other people.
it's sad but true, yet it might be that the slaves don't even realize themselves being slaves, because they think they "get something good out of it" or they maybe "helped in creating something 'great' "
but then... if everybody "gets something out of it", nobody has really lost...
another thing is the proportions of the "getting something out of it" for the different people involved....

peace :weedman:

 

[IJesusChrist]

Well thanks brain! You could say I had my mid life crisis when I was 16, I sort of saw everything I was going to do (not very specific) and it shocked me. It was a wake up call, and it took me about a year to say hey, don't dwell on it, change it! I can make it better. Just gotta try to be positive

Hoorah I go to college tommorrow, starting a whole new chapter of my life! Bringing the wisdom of ayahuasca, and maybe spread it around, to those who need it, ya know? Or maybe it's not ready yet.... We'll see.

Everyone is a tool, but the feelings that come along with that are personal, and can cloud it's real meaning. I prefer not to use that term either, though.

 

[robhR]

the underlying message of the "starting of the brain to malfunction because of overload" is that for many people too much has to be thought by the brain... that leads to the quite common "burnout-syndrome" or to different types of insanity

For the most part I would blame literal burnout-syndrome on society as well. I mean some people choose to think a lot and they're entitled to do so, but most busy-bodies think that's the ideal way to live because society implies that. So I agree with you on that point, but that isn't really what I'm talking about. When I was writing about overload I was writing more with schizophrenia in mind, how most think it and things like it are just a natural biproduct of us overusing our monkey brains. That when they get this advanced they're bound to malfunction.

It is extremely hard to cope with the world today, as it isn't natural, in any way any more. There is an underlying part of our brains which I despise, that seems to love manipulation, and usary. It stirs hate, depression, and insanity when it is finally viewed, and more and more people, given the relaxtion on the mind can now see, the world, and reality for how it really is, at an omnipotent view.

Totally. But I wouldn't call it an underlying part of our brain, I'm pretty sure it's just an ego program, but maybe I'm just being overly optimistic.

I think so, yes, because in fact there is nothing wrong with this world. It is a matter of interpretation/perception. You perceive what you want to perceive, either if you think the world is a mad place where only the insane are sane or if you think that all that exist is an expression of joy.

I know, yes. One person could look at something and take it as a perfectly acceptable part of life and another could look at it and think what the fuck is this i'm going to shoot myself. Deciding which one is correct will always come down to opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that society causes a hell of a lot of angst and therefor there is likely a problem or two that need to be dealt with.

Psychology is built on humanism. But it is the kind of humanism that centers the human individuality. I think that saying that several hard line left brained people run the show is an oversimplification.

Yes, it is humanistic at it's core, but until very recently the humanistic and transpersonal schools of psychology were considered to be pretty fringe and we're still just recovering from that mindset. But you're right about the left brained thing, I was definitely oversimplifying.

But the fact is that clients seek treatment, environments don't, so they are helping those that want to be helped.

Exactly, which is fine, but there should be more sociologists out there attempting to find the holes in the system and more politicians willing to fix them.

It is always hard to recognize your own mistakes, prejudices or misinterpretations. You can blame the environment (or the government, or 'them') for your depression, but that's just prolonging it because you are no longer in control.

I know, I know, I don't mean to imply that I'm shifting blame. My introspection usually always starts with the self and moves outwards, it's the only way that really makes any sense to me, because if it weren't for an environment I would be nothing. These thoughts are obviously built based on something outside of myself. In the end it's the decisions I've made, but at the beginning it's the external stimuli.

That doesn't mean that the environment hasn't got anything to do with it, but it does mean that it is your personal reaction to this environment that got you in the shits.

I agree, I'm just being too sensitive. But I think that does imply something. I mean a psychiatrist couldn't tell their patient that yeah everything is fucked up in your life but just build yourself a wall. Well, I guess a bad one could, but what I mean to say is if I got fucked up by taking my environment too seriously then there is still something wrong.

Logic is a tool. If you forget that, you are a tool yourself. I agree that we have collectively lost sight of truth, but throwing away logic isn't the solution, because logic is something that connects us.

Well of course we can't throw it away, but we should all be more willing to keep an open mind. Not us, 'cause we all rock at that, but, y'know, them.

Sleep tight!

Oh did I ever.

Well, "this world" is a very big and complex thing, so to label it as either wrong or right is rather meaningless. What do you mean with "this world", and what do "wrong" and "right" mean to you?

Sorry, I'm just more into vagaries than clear communication. By this world I mean society, and the collective way we are taught to perceive reality. What wrong I mean is some undescribable sense that things don't feel as good as they could, what right I mean is some utopia where everyone is holding hands and singing and stuff.

But in general, this world doesn't cause anything. Seeing the stupidity, the deceit and the lies around me doesn't make me depressed. And I'm quite aware of the "wrongs" going on all over the world.

Then you're one of the lucky ones. I didn't say society causes us all to be fucked up, I just meant that the whole concept of being fucked up has to be a result of something.

It's neither you nor the environment, but the way the two interact. And the nature of that interaction may change (through studying psychology, attending workshops, reading books, learning the hard way, moving to another country etc.). You can't change what happens to you, but you can change the way you respond to it, the way you perceive and deal with it. And doesn't the notion that there's a lot to be improved inspire you? The war on drugs doesn't depress me, it inspires me (to write, to blog, etc.). Same for the big religions: we've got work to do!

I agree, I agree completely. I don't know... perhaps it's because you have less of a proximity to the united states. It depresses me that it often seems like this improvement will never happen because those who so blindly follow and defend the system seem to outnumber the crap out of the rest of us. But it does also create personal inspiration, that it's on me to be a good person, a good example, and do what I can.

Don't let your opinions be validated by people who suffer from depression, but challenged by those who are basically happy and enthusiastic.

It's not as if I'm ignoring the existence of happiness in the world. Happy people are irrelevant to my opinions on the concept of depression.

 

[Forkbender]

Excuse me for being direct. But I'm only being hard on you because I think you can take it and are willing to discuss this.

I know, yes. One person could look at something and take it as a perfectly acceptable part of life and another could look at it and think what the fuck is this i'm going to shoot myself. Deciding which one is correct will always come down to opinion, but that doesn't change the fact that society causes a hell of a lot of angst and therefor there is likely a problem or two that need to be dealt with.

I don't think society causes these problems. Your frustrations are *your* frustrations. I see external things as neutral and my perception as either 'right' or 'wrong'.

Exactly, which is fine, but there should be more sociologists out there attempting to find the holes in the system and more politicians willing to fix them.

Why should others fix your problem?

These thoughts are obviously built based on something outside of myself. In the end it's the decisions I've made, but at the beginning it's the external stimuli.

Okay, but how do you know that you don't make a decision about which external stimuli you accept and which stimuli you neglect? Everybody filters information, because otherwise they would run away screaming.

what I mean to say is if I got fucked up by taking my environment too seriously then there is still something wrong.

I'm not saying that you should take the world less seriously. You must recognize that people (including you and me) only see what they want to see. Apparently you want to see a fucked up world because it reflects how you feel on the inside. Learn to watch yourself without any link to anything else, just observing the feeling and accepting it for the time being. If you are angry just think: "Okay, I am angry" Don't try to find the source of it, because than you just try to make it go away. Don't try to feel different, just feel.

 

[Caduceus Mercurius]

perhaps it's because you have less of a proximity to the united states.

Well, admittedly that is an important factor. Like Forkbender I can cultivate and smoke cannabis on my balcony and do lots of other things one can't do in the US. So the environment does play a role. I also understand it's not that easy to escape from the U.S.A. I have several friends there who desperately want to leave the police state, but cannot. Last year I even considered setting up a business that would allow refugees from the US to move to the Netherlands. If you can figure out a way to leave, even if it would take 5 years or more, do it.

 

[robhR]

I don't think society causes these problems. Your frustrations are *your* frustrations. I see external things as neutral and my perception as either 'right' or 'wrong'.

I'm sorry but I don't like this outlook at all. I do understand where you're coming from, and it's why I think it's important to own your emotions, to make sure the first thought you have is about you creating the emotion rather than the external force creating the emotion. However, I simply cannot see all external things as neutral. Nature, this desk, whatever, yes. But I'm talking about things other people have created out of their own warped perception (I'm not claiming mine is unwarped, for the record) being right or wrong. I don't see how you could, in any way, see war, inequality, destruction of the environment, suppression of the individual and all that as neutral. I will not agree that they enter my perception and become wrong. They are wrong. And anybody who might see them as right is wrong.

Why should others fix your problem?

I'm not even trying to make the point that society bothers me. I'm trying to make the point that there is something very wrong at the core of our beliefs that causes chain reactions throughout many individuals and end up with people going crazy. It's not my problem. It's everybody's problem. It's not in my perception. Something is very, very wrong. And personally, it doesn't even bother me. I've gotten over it and it gives me something to try and make a point about, so I am in no way calling for people to fix my problem.

Okay, but how do you know that you don't make a decision about which external stimuli you accept and which stimuli you neglect? Everybody filters information, because otherwise they would run away screaming.

I never really had a functional filter and I ran away screaming.

Not to imply that I'm totally clear minded and the world entered me and broke me, all of what made me depressed was me spinning out by myself, but I can't really say I chose to accept and neglect certain stimuli. I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at actually.

I'm not saying that you should take the world less seriously. You must recognize that people (including you and me) only see what they want to see. Apparently you want to see a fucked up world because it reflects how you feel on the inside.

Actually I see a pretty beautiful world and a fucked up society. But that was my bad for wording it that way.

Learn to watch yourself without any link to anything else, just observing the feeling and accepting it for the time being. If you are angry just think: "Okay, I am angry" Don't try to find the source of it, because than you just try to make it go away. Don't try to feel different, just feel.

Can't do that. Will never be able to do that. I will always know the source of my anger because I simply can't accept feeling an emotion I don't understand, however more often than not I will come to the conclusion that it is in fact something external clashing with something internal and I am at peace with my anger. I often learn I do need to make changes, because often times the anger comes from something unreasonable that I need to work through. You're seeing this from the perspective of somebody confident in his stability who doesn't feel the need to worry that there might be something wrong inside that's causing you to feel this way.

Again, I can't stress this enough: I'm not shifting blame. I don't recommend shifting blame. I'm just trying to make the point that there's something wrong with a system that produces crazy people and then zombifies them and pretend there's nothing profound happening here. I can see how it would seem like I'm talking in circles and if anybody is doubting that I'm not shifting blame I can try to explain myself better.

Well, admittedly that is an important factor. Like Forkbender I can cultivate and smoke cannabis on my balcony and do lots of other things one can't do in the US. So the environment does play a role. I also understand it's not that easy to escape from the U.S.A. I have several friends there who desperately want to leave the police state, but cannot. Last year I even considered setting up a business that would allow refugees from the US to move to the Netherlands. If you can figure out a way to leave, even if it would take 5 years or more, do it.

Nah I'm not in the states. I'm happy where I am. Just saying that our culture is a little more influenced by them which gives me more of a sense of hopelessness.

 

[????????]

this thread is juicy.

*???????? casts Phoenix Down - the thread comes alive again*

I don't see how you could, in any way, see war, inequality, destruction of the environment, suppression of the individual and all that as neutral. I will not agree that they enter my perception and become wrong. They are wrong. And anybody who might see them as right is wrong.

i think what you feel/felt was the result of seeing how things are in our world and reasonably concluding that we can be better off. the proverbial awakening. now, if things weren't so shitty we could not react to them and consider better scenarios. but utopias can't exist. we like to think of wars and such as wrong and we often forget how a lot of technology we use came from war research. you see were i'm getting at here. i don't see the things you mention as right but i realize it is my perception that labels them as wrong. yes, i do see the world as neutral. maybe this makes me guilty of practising armchair philosophy but dammit, if there can be anything neutral it would be the universe itself.

what i like to think is that we really shouldn't see 'rights' and 'wrongs' in the world, just human business going about. the important point here is not what is indeed right and wrong but the fact that we have the ability to discern between the two, we can see the unbalance. it's up to us to try to drive this human business in some way so we don't destroy ourselves. we can be conscious beings and notice when bad stuff is happening and choose to do something about it.

i guess the good strategy to follow here is CM's. using all this wrongness we see as fuel for change and thinking of problems as work to do.

 

[Ahuaeynjxs]

I don't see where you're getting at ; at all...

I don't see how we couldn't have put more money on research and less into fake wars manipulated by the very elite.

We would be better off now, but it's useless to go back in the past, yes of course I agree however that we should use the shit lake to grow into lotuses, but you have to get down to the roots of the problem, and it was rightly underlines in this thread.

You say we overwork our monkey brain , thats very well said... the neocortex is pretty much still a mystery to science, and ESPECIALLY its foods.

It is my experience that depression and schizophreny is all symptoms of a STARVED brain. Be it DHA-EPA, be it MAGNESIUM, be it POLYSACHARRIDES... there is things missing.

And people will look everywhere for answers , creating a MEGA industry out of the whole mental deal, while out breath should be the king of our minds, and thus we never stop to think about how we exist, we are just intuitive about what we need to exist.

So if you want to help yourself and change the world, feed yourself not with minumum daily requirement that the government tell you is good, but research and make up your own mind about what is your theory of what a brain needs, and experience it !

Then , when the root is well fed, move on to the tought-forms.

EVERY HUMAN deserves a brain well fed, we are putting wood in the fire by always reflecting it upon our minds and the environement ; of course don't bathe in a mercury contaminated lake... but in this sense we are indeed mirrors of each and every sun we see in the night sky, and the night is the veil, and I'll see you all on the dark side of the moon

 

[Forkbender]

So if you want to help yourself and change the world, feed yourself not with minumum daily requirement that the government tell you is good, but research and make up your own mind about what is your theory of what a brain needs, and experience it !

I agree that people should find out what their body needs and take it. However. You cannot expect everybody to dig through a heap of medical reports, all suggesting a mean and a deviance from that mean when it comes to daily intake of a certain amount and combine all that information so that they know what to take (more or less, because it is all averaged). People would end up mad as a doorstep. I think the research you are proposing should be entirely based on personal reaction to certain diets/supplements.